[Evan_Green]

The recent thread on NCR brought up this issue and I thought it was worthy of its own thread.

I doubt that anyone can make an argument against the fact that the two states with the best collections of golf courses are NY and CA.

However what is the third best state for golf courses? Why doesnt everyone vote for their 1st and 2nd choice? Lets award 2 points for 1st place and 1 point for 2nd place and see who comes out the winner in democratic fashion.

I think the following 6 states are the worthy contenders.

Candidates:

Ohio: Camargo, NCR, Inverness, The GC, Muirfield Village, Double Eagle, Scioto, Canterbury, Firestone, Coldstream, Moraine, OSU, Kirtland, Brookside

Pennsylvania: Oakmont, Merion, Aronimink, Laurel Valley, Huntingdon, Saucon Valley, Lancaster, Manufacturers, Philly Cricket, Philly CC, Rolling Green, Rolling Rock & Stonewall

Michigan: Crystal Downs, Oakland Hills, CC of Detroit, Detroit GC, The Dunes, Franklin Hills, Arcadia Bluffs, High Pointe, Indianwood, Point O Woods, Plum Hollow, Warwick Hills, U Michigan, Kingsley

New Jersey: Pine Valley, Plainfield, Ridgewood, Somerset Hills, Baltusrol Lower, Baltusrol Upper, Essex County, Hollywood, Metedeconk Natl, Atlantic City, Galloway, Hidden Creek, Mountain Ridge

Illinois: Chicago, Medinah, Olympia Fields, Cog Hill, Bob O link, Shoreacres, Beverly, Butler Natl, Kemper Lakes, Rich Harvest, Skokie, North Shore

South Carolina: Harbour Town, Long Cove, Briar's Creek, Yeamans Hall, Kiawah Ocean, The Dunes, Wild Dunes, Musgrove Mill, Secession, Greenville- Chanticleer, CC of Charleston, Caledonia, Chechessee Creek, Haig Point

I give the nod to Ohio in a photo finish with New Jersey an ever so close 2nd.

Thus after my vote the score is:

Ohio - 2 points
New Jersey - 1 point

[DPL11]

I have got to give it to my home state of New Jersey. So many great courses in a rather small land area compared to many of the other contenders.


Pine Valley is our trump card and gives NJ the nod. Pennsylvania is right behind IMHO.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I have never been to Michigan, but the diversity of their courses (linksy, parkland, heathland ....) seems pretty compelling to me.

[Gerry B]

i would say penn / nj in a tie with illinois not far behind with honorable mention to ohio
you can add forsgate banks course in nj and fox chapel in pa to the list

Massachusetts has a few gems to be considered as well - ie brookline, myopia hunt club, salem, kittansett,sankaty head, essex, nantucket, hyannisport,charles river, etc.

[Evan_Green]

Good points/opinions all, esp Gerry that Massachusetts also deserves a look for 3rd best golf state in US. Undoubtedly some top notch courses there.

OK heres are points standings so far:

New Jersey 4.5
Pennsylvania 2.5
Ohio - 2
Michigan - 2

Keep the votes coming!

[Gene Greco]

Jersey

then PA

then  tie Ohio and Illinois

[JNC Lyon]

Pennsylvania probably tops the list because the variety of architects who did great work there.

Ohio would be a close second.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I'll go with my home state (PA).  You can add these courses to that list:

Classic:
Fox Chapel
Kahkwa
Hershey (West)
Whitemarsh Valley

Modern:
Huntsville
GC at Glen Mills
Nemacolin Woodlands

In addittion, what about Florida or Georgia for consideration:

FL - Sawgrass, Seminole, Doral, Jupiter Hills, Bay Hill, Black Diamond, World Woods (both courses), Ocean Hammock, John's Island, Lake Nona, Amelia Island

GA - Augusta Naional, East Lake, Atlanta CC, The Farm, Reynolds Plantation, Sea Island / Ocean Forest, Peachtree, Glen Arven

[Gerry B]

if we are considering florida and georgia

add lookout mountain in georgia
and in florida - links at key biscayne(crandon park) indian creek, floridian to name a few

[Gerry B]

and add atlanta athletic club to the georgia list

[Evan_Green]

This is kind of like watching the Presidential election only more fun! We have a new leader in the clubhouse with Pennsylvania!

Pennsylvania - 7.5 pts
New Jersey - 6.5 pts
Ohio - 3 pts
Michigan - 2 pts

[Gerry B]

To make it interesting - if we considered the above referenced states incl massachusetts that have hosted us opens it would read like this - if my count is correct

penn 14 on 4 courses - oakmont /merion philly cc / philly cricket

illinois -13 on 8 courses - chicago gc / olympia fields / medinah / skokie / north shore / glenview / midlothian / onswentia

mass - 9 on 4 courses - brookline / myopia / worcester / brae burn

New Jersey 8 on 2 courses - baltusrol / englewood - receives 2 bonus points for Pine Valley

ohio -7 on 3 courses - inverness / canterbury / scioto

michigan - 6 on 1 course - oakland hills

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I'll have to go with my birth state, NJ, but in a tie with Pennsylvania.  So many good courses in a small area; almost all of the "classic" architects represented here:

Tillinghast, Flynn, Ross, Raynor, Banks, H. Wilson, Colt (inc. Crump), Travis, R.T. Jones

Glaring exceptions are MacKenzie, MacDonald.

Massachusetts and Illinois are not far behind, either, although Illinois has more variety in architects represented, whereas Massachusetts, for the most part, gets the bulk of its points from the strength of the Ross courses there.  
Ross was probably strongest in Mass/RI, like CBM/SR were strongest on Long Island.  
Flynn was strongest around Philadelphia.  

Darn Northeast bias again.  

[Steve Lapper]

New Jersey by a real margin.

A considerable # of courses haven't even been mentioned, (i.e. the publics: Twisted Dune/Royce Brook W/Blue Heron E/Pine Barrens/Ballyowen/Hawk Pointe, etc....

I like Pennsylvania as the runner up. Having played a decent # of the Ohio courses, I don't think it belongs in the top three. Instead I'd make the argument that South Carolina or Illinois deserve the next spots. Both have a more diverse and deep representation of style, architecture and terrain.

[Cory Lewis]

I would also have to go with Jersey narrowly over Penn.  If you take out the #1 course in each state, I believe that Somerset, Plainfield, and Hollywood are better than any three courses in Pennsylvania.  As Doug said, there is a great variety of classic architects doing some of their best work in Jersey.  

[Ken Fry]

Gerry B,

Don't use the US Open as a yardstick.  The numerous discussions on this board demonstrate a high level of bias to courses in "certain areas."  (And certain courses.)
And you wouldn't wish to add Cuscowilla to your list of courses from Georgia?

Oakland Hills has had numerous USGA events and is not even considered the best golf course in the state of Michigan.  New Jersey is strong but how well would Baltusrol fair in a less populated area of the country?

My nod goes to Pennsylvania. Michigan is right behind.  Michigan may not have the tradition, but the variety of styles due to terrain and the number of different course architects (from Golden Age to Modern) are better represented than anywhere in the country.

Ken

[wsmorrison]

I cannot say which is my number 1 in Pennsylvania, but it would certainly be between Oakmont and Merion.  So Corey, if you take out Oakmont, do you believe Plainfield, Somerset Hills, or Hollywood are all better than Merion?  If you take out Merion, do you believe that Plainfield, Somerset Hills, and Hollywood are all better than Oakmont?  I would stack up Merion, Huntingdon Valley, and Rolling Green or Aronimink (gotta watch out for my Flynn bias  )with any three NJ courses excluding Pine Valley.

I think one ought to add Lehigh and Sunnehanna to the PA courses under consideration.  I haven't played enough courses in NJ, OH, or elsewhere to say with any degree of certainty how states compare nor am I sure it is worthwhile...but I could happily play in PA alone for the remainder of my life (alright I'd want to include Golf Assoc of Phila courses, this way I get to include Pine Valley).  I have always been a homer; a proud native son of the Keystone State.  So if I am to vote, my vote is for PA all the way!

[GeoffreyC]

Evan

I'll stir things up a bit (what's new?) and say your basic premise is incorrect.

I would put NY as #1 but California is probably #4 in my mind with NJ #2 and Pennsylvania #3.  There is just way too much depth of gems in those too states compared with California.  After you list PB, CPC, Pasa, Valley, Riv, LACC and SFGC you're really hunting for top shelf courses. Not so in NJ and Pennsylvania where the list goes on and on.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Geoffrey,

Other decent courses in CA:

Olympic, Bel-Air, Meadow Club, MPCC (both courses now), Spyglass, PGA West, Rustic, Barona, Mayacama, Lake Merced, Cal Club, Stanford, maybe one or two more in Coachella Valley.

[Paul_Turner]

With my limited experience, my bet would be Mass.

[michael j fay]

Pennsylvania over New Jersey by a nose.

What happened to North Carolina which has a wide array of wonderful golf courses old and new?

California is not in the same breath as either Pennsylvania or New Jersey. Take away the Pacific Ocean and you have very little of note in California. Massachusetts may even nose out the Granola State.

[Evan_Green]

Score update:

Pennsylvania: 17 pts
New Jersey: 13 pts
Ohio: 3 pts
Michigan: 3 pts

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

North Caroline, Georgia, Florida(flat people are good too) and Texas should be in the discussion. I vote Michigan even with the short season.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tiger, I am afraid I have to take exception.  

The courses in the states you list, some are very, very good, but a lot of the others are newer and have yet to stand the test of time.  

That is one thing that the courses up north of the Mason-Dixon have shown; 80 years+ running and they are still strict tests of golf.  

PS-Thanks Cory

PSS-Wayne-You have a Flynn bias?  Nahhh....  

[wsmorrison]

Doug,
Guilty, but unashamed  See you in Flynn country soon.
Best,
Wayne

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