[Patrick_Mucci]

Have increased distances made par 5's more, or less interesting ?

[John_Conley]

Pat:

It depends on which par 5s we talk about, at least for me.  Modern designs tend to have a lot more trouble around the green.  The distance some hit the ball today has made some old par 5s much less interesting.

[A_Clay_Man]

After watching my friend make eagle yesterday on one of our short 5's, I'd say if it isn't more interesting, it sure is more fun, for the golfer unfortunate to be in in the bottom 95%.

Isn't that the big distinction ? The pro, or very good Am, versus the rest of us.

The desire to go 700 yards(unless severely dwnhill ala Lake chabot's closer) will never be any fun for us lower 95 percent. But the short par fives seem like where a designer might actually have some fun. Making the penalty for the aggressive miss, being at the heart of fun, of course.

[TEPaul]

#15 PVGC is certainly still and interesting real three shot par 5. If someone can hit that one in two they'd be one of the very few ever. Even if you had the length trying to get near the front of it in two shots is quite a mission, as well. And now they're thinking of lengthening it another 30 or so yards so it will probably stay a complete three shot par 5 for all.

[Bruce Katona]

The classic Tillie par 5 with the Hell's half acre a still true tests of a player's skill, whether it be at Pine Valley or Ridgewood, where a forced carry second shot is required.  The carry may be with a different club than when originally built, but it still leaves most golfers with some level or uncertainty.

[Mike Hendren]

Just generally, those par 5's designed to be reachable in 2 with a wood for a typical good player (ie, playing in the 490-520) range are less interesting, because you can hit a mid iron into them if you bust the drive.  

Addressed to all:

Honestly, how many of you guys out there are hitting mid-iron seconds into 520 yard par fives?

Even with the modern technology, I suspect only a handful of people are driving the golf ball 300 yards.  I suspect even fewer are hitting 200 yard mid-irons.  

Mr. Livingston's Feature Interview is the most enlightening commentary on the distance issue I've yet to read.  

Am I the only one here questioning the legitimacy of the "distance problem?"  I still find it to be an extremely difficult game.

Mike

[Brian_Gracely]

Just generally, those par 5's designed to be reachable in 2 with a wood for a typical good player (ie, playing in the 490-520) range are less interesting, because you can hit a mid iron into them if you bust the drive.  

Addressed to all:

Honestly, how many of you guys out there are hitting mid-iron seconds into 520 yard par fives?

Even with the modern technology, I suspect only a handful of people are driving the golf ball 300 yards.  I suspect even fewer are hitting 200 yard mid-irons.  

Am I the only one here questioning the legitimacy of the "distance problem?"  I still find it to be an extremely difficult game.

Mike

Mike,

The distance issue is primarily for the top 1-2% of all golfers, but it's magnified because that includes almost all professionals and a larger majority of the top amateurs (at least at high profile events like US Amateur, etc.).  

But those are the guys that are playing in all the highly visable tournaments, so hence it gets alot of press.  

From my own personal game, I can definitely attest that the ball does go farther than several years ago, and many of the guys in my weekend group (30+ yrs) are hitting the ball 285-310 on a regular basis.  

[Mike Hendren]

Brian,

You have an incredibly athletic lateral move through the ball and indeed hit it "a ways."  How many of you pals AVERAGE 300 yards.  Surely every now and then they come off one or get a little quick and "only" hit the ball 270 yards.  That must mean they also drive it 330 on occasion.  I just don't buy that.  For years I've heard guys claim to have driven it 300 yards but know darned well know that last 35 or so are hyperbolic.  275 off the tee leaves 245 to the green on Shivas 520 yards hole.  

I don't see ANYBODY hitting 220 yard six-irons.  As I recall you stepped all over that long iron on the 10th at CPC for your tap-in eagle

I think the number is well under 1%.  If so, that's statistically irrelevant in my book - particularly in the context of golf course architecture.  

Perhaps I am just a bitter middle aged man

I expect to see a lot of guys driving the first green at Cuscowilla in November.  

Mike

[Andy Hughes]

Honestly, how many of you guys out there are hitting mid-iron seconds into 520 yard par fives?
Even with the modern technology, I suspect only a handful of people are driving the golf ball 300 yards.  I suspect even fewer are hitting 200 yard mid-irons.
Mr. Livingston's Feature Interview is the most enlightening commentary on the distance issue I've yet to read.
Am I the only one here questioning the legitimacy of the "distance problem?"  I still find it to be an extremely difficult game.

I am with you Mike.  I have always thought I was ok distance-wise, but a good drive for me goes 260-270, and I surely don't hit mid-irons into 520 yard holes.  I am hereby hoping I never have to play with Brian's group! I'd feel hopelessly inadequate.

[Mike Hendren]

Andy,

Gracely is a punk - pure and simple!

Mike

[Brian_Gracely]

Mike,

I would agree with you that I've heard the "I hit it 280-290" for years and didn't used to believe it.  But I've recently started playing in some decent amateur events and I find that while you think I "hit it a ways", I'm constantly the first to hit approach shots into greens.  But almost everyone of those guys have tweaked equipment and very large-headed drivers....and usually aren't that much taller than me.  I'm pretty sure I've reached my max. length for a lifetime as my back gets tighter each week, my swing posture is horrible and I can't convince myself to fix it.

At CPC I hit Driver-3i/4i/4i into #5, 6 and 10 (respectively).  I'm pretty sure we had a helping fog and I'd venture to guess that I had a little bit of adreneline (sp?) flowing that day  

Andy

Shivas, David Kelly, Jim Franklin, David Carroll, Brian Noser, Thomas Brown, Jeff Fortson are just a few of the GCA'er I know that hit it WAY past me.....I'm Corey Pavin in their foursomes.  

[Andy Hughes]

Andy,
Gracely is a punk - pure and simple!
Mike

Yes, but a long-hitting punk.  I'd be happy to be called names if my drives ended up 300 yards away from me....

[Andy Hughes]

Andy
Shivas, David Kelly, Jim Franklin, David Carroll, Brian Noser, Thomas Brown, Jeff Fortson are just a few of the GCA'er I know that hit it WAY past me.....I'm Corey Pavin in their foursomes.

Hmm, I suppose that makes me Rosie Jones  

[Thomas_Brown]

Go easy on Brian - It's not easy being Corey Pavin.
I'd say I'm only 5-10 yds. longer than Brian.

I agree w/ critique of cape holes being changed.
I played RTJ Sr. Portsmouth in NH in early May.
#5 is a cape of 520 over the bay - Fantastic tee shot, but a carry of 260 over the aggressive line isn't really that nerve wracking anymore - just scenic.

#1 at Riviera CC - obsolete tee shot strategy.
PGA pro Pat Perez hits is 30 yards past me - In the practice round at the Nissan, I watched him hit 3 wood, 6 iron in.
On the other hand, #17 at Riviera is more interesting.

[George Pazin]

As it seems to be the only way to get the big boys to hit long irons anymore, I'd say par 5s have become more interesting for them.

For me, any hole is interesting and a challenge, but I generally find long par 3s, short par 4s and short par5s the most interesting.

Regarding the myriad of "300 yard drives" that are quoted so frequently on here and at most 19th holes, I'd guess most are anecdotal exaggerations, and fail to take into account things like playing a slightly shorter tee marker that day, catching a stiff breeze or downhill slot, cutting corners, etc. My longest recorded drive was paced off at something like 360 - but it was on a strong dogleg where, by cutting the corner, you get a kick off the hill (or in my case, the cart path). But by no means would I ever say I hit 300 yard drives. I have hit them, even on non dogleg holes, but it's the exception and not the norm. I'm not a big fan of relying on anecdotal evidence.

I've also played with enough GCAers who told me others GCAers' claims of prodigious distance were, well, let's just say not quite accurate.

[Brad Swanson]

I know in my younger years I used to eat-up the par 5s alot more than I do now.  Hmm, maybe I should go back to persimmon and balata!

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Brian Noser]

I myself do not claim to be long by any means. I say longer than average. I do not average 300 yards I do not think. longest drive to date is about 410 though. with pictures to prove it and witneses.But the par 5s are to me becoming more interesting for me.because on the longer ones I have the ability to go for them with a risk and the shorter ones well who does not like the thought of making eagle.

[Doug Siebert]

Mike H,

As you say, hitting 300 yards and averaging 300 yards are two very different things.  I hit it a long way, but I'd never in a million years claim to average 300 yards....it only takes one ugly heel hit that smothers in the left rough to really mess up your average.  Not to mention that hitting a half dozen pretty good but not quite square drives and/or having a 50% or less fairway average don't do much for you either!

However, I don't think average drives are what's important here.  Just because I can't average 300 doesn't mean I can't easily hit and exceed 300 yards on a well struck drive in normal conditions (no wind, level ground, not PGA tour fairway height and dry but not fast n firm conditions)  Its not so much the fact that a 540 yard hole is a drive and a 3i for me every time, because that's nowhere near the case, I'm not even close to consistent enough.  Its the fact that it CAN be, whereas 10 years ago it was only after 2-3 weeks with little or no rain on when I had one of those nice summer southerlies blowing 20 mph behind me that I could do that.

In a way, I think its made me worse on par 5s.  If I step up to the tee of such a hole now, I feel a little extra pressure from inside to hit a nice solid drive, and keep it in the short grass, so I have a chance to have a go.  Hell, there's one 590 yard hole with an uphill second that I think about when the wind is blowing because one glorious day (with a nice breeze, of course!) I pulverized my drive and hit a pure 1 iron that was a thing of beauty to behold.  I loved the feeling of getting to the top of the hill and seeing my ball on the green, and want it again.  Its like a drug for some of us, one we know is bad for our golf score but we don't care!

That said, I have to temper this by admitting that my home course has a 494 yard par 5 that's downhill for the first 330 yards and uphill the last 100, but overall downhill.  And plays with the prevailing wind.  And I'm only on that green about 1 out of every 7-8 times, because the landing area is narrow and hump backed and I'm just not that straight with my driver on a regular enough basis to take advantage of it.  Hell, for a season I played it with a 1 iron off the tee because my driver was bedeviling me and I eagled it more times that season than I had for the previous two or the three since, how sad is that?

So whether its a problem for guys like me depends on your point of view.  I'm capable of making a lot of par 5s play differently than they were intended to be played.  But in general, being able to do that will probably make me play it worse, so it certainly isn't leading to lower scores.  Personally I think it is more of an issue on formerly long par 4s like 450 yards or so that are a driver/wedge on a good day and but always reachable in two even after a bad drive -- used to be that a missed drive on a hole like that meant I'd be either hitting the hero shot or thinking where I should lay up to.

Oh yeah, good example of all this, on #12 Lahinch a couple weeks ago, I pounded one 385 off the tee (nice breeze, natch)  Left with a SW in, but that's one crazy green and not easy to hit, so I put it in the back right bunker and took a 5.  Same score my dad got, after he hit a good drive and a good second, about 25 yards beyond my drive....which he had to point out as we walked off the green...

[Mike Hendren]

In a way, I think its made me worse on par 5s.  If I step up to the tee of such a hole now, I feel a little extra pressure from inside to hit a nice solid drive, and keep it in the short grass, so I have a chance to have a go.  

Doug, this is an insightful comment.  I suspect many of the bigger hitters feel the same pressure to reach mid-length par fives in two and make birdie.  That pressure is felt immeidately on the tee as opposed to a Tin Cup moment in the middle of the fairway.  Doesn't pressure lead to mistakes?  

In response to Patrick's thread-starter, perhaps increased distance for three shots holes is not the answer.  I'm thinking specifically of how often a player pures that 3-iron lay-up second shot when there's little pressure involved.  Where's that shot when I need to hit the green on a long par four?

Mike

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