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JNC Lyon

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Top Ten Architects of All Time
« on: July 09, 2004, 05:11:30 PM »
 I recall reading in Ron Whitten's feature interview on this site about Geoffrey Cornish's idea for a book about the top 10 architects of all time. Coming back to that thought, who would be the top ten architects of all time? Why?
This is my list, with comments:

1. Ross. Routing genius, unbelievable greens, quirky bunkering. The best thing about Ross was that was able to do this at hundreds of courses in half a century.

2. Tillinghast. Variety of styles and crazy greens. Very bold, some of his work is very good but not well known.

3. Mackenzie. Melded nature with man's work better than anyone. A true artist.

4. MacDonald. Revolutionary ideas in America. Brought the strategy of golf to the states.

5. Flynn. Most underrated. Courses use bunkering and land to fullest, resulting in charm not found in most of today's courses.

6. Dye. Awakened a sleeping industry. Courses were baffling yet refreshing. Older courses are especially fun, new courses are very tough without appearing artificial.

7. Thomas. Great understanding of strategy, shown especially in his book. Created holes fascinating for multiple levels of play. Courses within a course idea very interesting.

8. Colt. Collaberated on possibly the finest course in the US, as well as creating many masterpieces in the British Isles.

9. Morris. Nurtured TOC to "modern" state. Laid out some fo the classics in the British Isles.

10. Raynor. BOLD bunkering creates drama often lacking in many courses as well as strategy which is never tiring.

Hope for your responses! Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 05:12:12 PM by JNC_Lyon »
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JNC Lyon

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2004, 05:53:35 PM »
Guess noboby likes my idea :'(
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George Pazin

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2004, 06:07:34 PM »
I think you're just catching everyone at the wrong time. It's happy hour on Friday evening for us easterners! :)

One thing is for sure - Paul Turner hasn't seen this or he'd be coming after you for sure. Colt eighth? Now that I think of it, maybe he has seen this and is on his way. Keep a look out over your shoulder this weekend. :)
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2004, 06:33:17 PM »
I agree: with all due respect, Colt at 8 ain't right.

Talk about a PIONEER. C.B. Macdonald's second-rate compared to Colt, who revolutionized the art and science of golf course design during the early 1900s.

Colt might be #1 in my book.
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johnk

Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2004, 07:37:21 PM »
Colt #1.  We love Colt.  Colt is our man.  And the great state of Ohio is pround to nominate the next president of the United States - a true patriot and great American - Harry S. Colt!

Join the Cult of Colt Club (CCC) boys!  Paul Turner and Brian Phillips are the officers - elected by me!
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redanman

Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2004, 07:52:15 PM »
Can't argue much but the order, an easily defendable list.  Maybe this list should be called "The Most Important Architects in Time"

I'll re-order, comment but not claim this as final, final. I am adding a defined numerical list just to piss off my good friend Tommy Paul.  8)


1   1 Ross. All of the above, plus Johnny Appleseed, whether or not he built all in his name.  The first brand-named architect of quality had great business sense. A man who defined a profession in the new world and modern age.

2    2  Tillinghast.  Master of the style of "no style".  Tremendous creativity.  High highs, what lows? Brilliant, timeless body of works.  Maybe Colt should be here instead.

3    8. Colt. Maybe here? Not as well-appreciated in US. He and Tillie are perhaps two sides of a coin? I need to play more of his work, admittedly.

4    6. Dye. Probably could be higher still.  One-handed renaissance artist, resurrecting the whole field.  Literally spawned a whole new generation.  We are so indebted to this man.

5    5. Flynn. His rightful place coming soon.  Most consistently excellent body of work-and sizeable. Gets a slight nod over Mack.  Flynn and Ross are always for almost everybody, attaining that elusive ideal.

6    3. Mackenzie.  Great highs, lots of visual excellence that plays(ed) well. May have been given more credit than due?  His excellence makes that moot.  A bit of hair-shaving, here, perhaps.

7    7. Thomas.  I got him back to the same spot by several moves! Most disrespected artist based upon how his masterpieces were treated.  We may not ever know how good he really was.

8    4. MacDonald.  Not a big enough body of work to put him higher.  Maybe including Raynor gets him higher.

The list starts to fuzz a bit here......
 
9  9.  Morris.  THE "first" original?

10  10. Raynor?.......Perhaps "The One-Time Geniuses (Fownes, Crump, Neville, H. Wilson, etc. are the "Tenth Man"?

I'll re-check after a few adult bevs.(or longer.)

« Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 07:54:02 PM by redanman »
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JNC Lyon

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2004, 09:17:29 PM »
Hmmmm...

I can't see Raynor outside of the top 10, as it seems there were no lows. How can one go wrong with Fisher's Island, Yeaman's Hall, Camargo, etc.

MacDonald's few courses are timeless.

Colt was probably too low on my list. I stand corrected!
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Matt Kardash

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2004, 09:25:31 PM »
hmmm I think Thompson should crack anybody's top 10.
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T_MacWood

Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2004, 10:46:44 PM »
Any list without Thompson near the top is highly suspect.

Old Tom?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 10:48:32 PM by Tom MacWood »
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Matt_Ward

Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2004, 11:24:43 PM »
Agree with redanman -- the impact of Pete Dye cannot be undervalued. No less than a top five placement for sure because no one in the field did more for architecture in golf in the second half of the 20th century. No doubt the other names are heavyweights but if one were to look at the following he has created it's quite impressive.

His thinkiing and concepts -- in concert with his wife Alice -- were as revolunationary to golf course design as Karsten Solheim was to the advancement of club design.
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Gerry B

Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2004, 12:48:18 AM »
consideration / honorable mention in the 10th slot to Willie Park, Fowler,Tom Bendelow,Hugh Wilson, Stanley Thompson, Willie Dunn (he did give us the Biarritz), Perry Maxwell, Devereaux Emmet, Herbert Strong to name a few.

Raynor is ranked too low IMHO -too many great courses in such a short time period - Camargo,Yale,Fishers, Shoreacres, Chicago GC re-design and Yeamans Hall is enough to make the top 10  - not to mention the construction feat he executed  on the Lido - imagine if he lived another 20 years.  
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Paul_Daley

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2004, 08:18:38 AM »
JCN Lyon: Lists are a lot of fun, and golf addicts do seem to crave this type of diet. But a word of warning: lists need to reflect an international perspective. Your list is US-Centric with 7/10.  

Colt at No. 8 ... now that caused a double-take. Perhaps you
pressed 1, then 7 at the same time, making 8? I would think that even Colt's biggest critics would place him somewhere in the top-three.  

Colt aside, there seems to be an absence of the great UK heathland architects in your list.

You may want to check out the voluminous and high quality work of Stanley Thompson.

There is a long dead Australian called Walter Travis who could putt the dimples off the ball, and also did some good design work.

Picking a top-ten is really tough. A top-four, however, seems easy: Mackenzie, Colt, Tilly, Ross. Not sure if Macdonald deserves weighing in at your No. 4, many would not have him in the top-ten.

In twenty-thirty years, I sense most top-ten lists will include Mike Strantz; perhaps it's just too early now to register.
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Sean Walsh

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2004, 08:29:24 AM »
Paul,

You beat me to the punch.  Although I do not have the breadth of experience in terms of architects' courses that I have played or studied, it was quite evident that the original list was tilted to those architects that have plied their trade in the USA.

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Paul_Daley

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2004, 08:51:43 AM »
Sean: hi there, good to see you surfin about on GCA. Sorry for beating you to the punch. No list is perfect, certainly not mine, just a matter of opinion. But that's what makes it fun.

Barely one in one hundred people get excited about solving a mathematics riddle; the mere fact that they can factually be solved makes them less interesting. Golf lists ... now they can never be nailed, and so the fascination continues.
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TEPaul

Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2004, 09:23:48 AM »
The top ten is too much to consider. I'll just give you the two best--and it's a virtual tie----MacKenzie and Thomas. Best green builder ever---Maxwell. Donald Ross? He might make the top ten but I'm not sure about that.   ;)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2004, 09:26:51 AM by TEPaul »
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Mike Hendren

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2004, 02:36:32 PM »
If Thomas was so great, why does so little of his original work exist today?  Is his reputation girded by his outstanding book or was he really that good?

He would appear to be a great candidate for most underrated, but for the fact that he is highly rated.

Braced for backlash from the Land of Arnold,

Mike

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George Pazin

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2004, 03:22:44 PM »
Mike -

It is hardly Thomas' fault that there have been a bunch of idiots trusted as custodians of his courses. Read The Captain and tell me he doesn't deserve to be rated higher.

And that your opinion of Californians didn't sink even lower. :)
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2004, 03:59:32 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Hendren on July 10, 2004, 02:36:32 PM
If Thomas was so great, why does so little of his original work exist today?  Is his reputation girded by his outstanding book or was he really that good?


Mike, your question is similar to mine.  If these guys are so damn great, why, other than Pete Dye has none of them recieved a major commission in over 60 years? ;D
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Paul_Turner

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2004, 04:18:01 PM »
Who has seen enough of nearly all of their work?  Tom Doak and Ran, anyone else?  I doubt it! Interesting that Doak has Mack, Colt, Tillie and Ross as the top 4 in The CG.   The old "Architects Survivor" thread was great because it covered other aspects like who traveled the most, geographical bias...

Mark Chalfant and I did a quick experiment to pass the time drving back from The Orchards.  We tried to list top courses by famous architects, but only including courses well above average... 6-10 on the Doak scale.  Only Colt and Ross got above 20-25. The others petered out at about 10-15 courses.  But those were just our opinions.

Actually Mike's point is generally valid.  If an architect's body of work doesn't pass the test of time and is changed. Were the courses simply less loved and didn't work?  Although in Thomas's case I'm pretty certain he was just unlucky!

The small amount of Ross work I've seen in the US has been very impressive, with Longmeadow being the most surprising and my favourite (with the ravines, it looks a bit like Hirono in places).

I wonder how good Alison's work is in the US?  I know Mark is a fan. And we know the Japanese work was top notch.

At the rate Tom Doak is going, with the kind of land he's working with,  he'll beat all of 'em.  Although I'd like to see him work on some really low budget, muni land.

James Braid has gone up in my book, since visiting Parkstone and Perranporth
« Last Edit: July 10, 2004, 04:39:33 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2004, 04:23:58 PM »
More seriously, if this is an all time list, I say you have to leave some room for more than one modern guy. And I agree with Paul Daley that some more international representation should be there.

To do that, I would remove Raynor, even though I love his work.  Can a copier of a copier really be deemed a great architect?

And Ross?  If you praise him for doing hundreds of courses, then RTJ has to be on the list, too.  Drop him down a bit at the very least.  Quantity is not quality, and his Quality/Quantity ratio is lower than others on the list.

Flynn was solid, and is getting a revival in stature, but no greater than Maxwell, who isn't there.....or for that matter, Fazio, who builds solid golf courses in the modern mold, just as Flynn built solid, but not spectacular courses in the Golden Age mode that were just a notch short of the best of the day, perhaps only because he didn't get a Cypress Point type site.....

And if you leave Thomas on the list for four great courses in California, would the list have to include Doak, for his couple of ocean front sites in the last few years?

I presume I finished .0001 points out of the list, and am in a multi - way tie for 11th? ;D
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Mike Hendren

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2004, 04:29:25 PM »
Paul,

I have felt for some time now that Ross got railroaded out of the Dead Architect Survivor Series by the cognoscenti.  Your nod to Ross has made my day.

I have assumed for some time now that you are assembling material for a Colt book, as is occasionally hinted here.  I will be among its first purchasers.

Now loitering with no intent whatsoever,

Mike
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Matt Kardash

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2004, 04:30:27 PM »
Paul

I thought I remembered Doak writing on this site that his top 3 were Mackenzie, Colt, and Dye (in no particular order)...I could be wrong though.
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Paul_Turner

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2004, 04:46:29 PM »
Which architect had the most impact, ever?

Early years, probably Colt.  

Today's "rennaisance", definitely Mackenzie.  But Dye must be up there too.

Trent Jones overall?

Mike

I'd like to know much more about Ross.  Everyone says that he did plenty of so so courses.  But I've never heard specifics!  I'd never heard of Longmeadow and it was simply marvelous...stronger than the much more famous Aronimink.

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mark chalfant

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2004, 05:21:51 PM »
1. Donald  Ross
2. Alister Mackenzie
3. Harry Colt
4. Pete Dye
5. Tom Simpson

6. Seth  Raynor
7. Charles Alison
8. Bill Coore
9. William  Langford
10 James Braid
« Last Edit: July 26, 2004, 10:31:16 PM by mark chalfant »
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Paul_Turner

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Re:Top Ten Architects of All Time
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2004, 05:29:59 PM »
Mark

We didn't get very far with Simpson's list (less than 10), so how come he's at number 5, eh  :D
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