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Adam_F_Collins

Rocks as hazards
« on: April 16, 2004, 10:55:24 AM »
I've often wondered about the use of rocks as hazards. It's easy to see how they could be dangerous, but in some areas of the world, they're hard not to employ.

Does anyone know of good examples or ways of utilizing rock outcroppings?

Are there guidelines to follow when faced with a rocky site?

mike_malone

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Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2004, 11:03:24 AM »
 At Sugarbush in Vermont there was a par five dogleg right that had a rock outcropping at the dogleg.You could see it and wanted to avoid it.The bounce you got off of it was usually into the fairway and the surface was rather smooth,so it was an interesting feature.
AKA Mayday

JDoyle

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2004, 11:10:59 AM »
The Country Club has a wold-class par 5 on the back side, I think it is #11, that has a huge rock formation that guards the inside of the right dogleg.  I saw Davis Love hit one of the best shots I have ever seen from the top of this ledge to the green during the '99 Ryder Cup.  Awesome hole that probably would be developed differently today.

Also, the mount/rock that Coore/Crenshaw used to great effect on #10 at Friar's Head also comes to mind.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2004, 11:41:06 AM »
Mike DeVries' new Greywalls course at Marquette G&CC in Michigan's U.P. features a lot of rock. I started to write a hole by hole account of the use of rock there, but soon realized I don't have the time!

Every hole on the front nine, along with numbers 10 and 18 features rock in dramatic fashion. Most of it presents stunning visual. But there's also some rock in the direct line to a few holes that serve interestingly as hazards.

What's interesting about Greywalls - in comparison to, say, the courses known for dramatic use of rock in the Muskoka region north of Toronto - is, Mike made an attempt to ensure the rock continue to look natural, covered with some native vegetation and a bit of dirt, here and there, too.  

At a few of the Muskoka courses, it appears they've sandblasted the rock.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2004, 11:42:22 AM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2004, 11:46:35 AM »
Adam. Guidelines? I have no idea. But I have witnessed both what I consider thoughtful use, and stupid use. Here's one of the best and boldest use of a rock outcrop. The strategic influence is not so visible in the picture. Look at the very center of what looks like the fairway. Thats a rock outcrop. One can flirt with flying it, on this short two-shotter, or play safely short and right and have the full length of the green to create a shot that "only the golfer knows".


Some poor examples: Water features that get the "full monty" with rocks dotting what seems like every inch of shoreline. The ones on the Stadium course at PGA west stand out as odd. But since they are abruptly introduced on the tenth, there is some license given. Otherwise they are eyesores. Same is true at SC in Vegas.

Another exceptional (minimal) use, is in the meadow on Weiskopf's Forest Highlands in Flatgstaff.

Lou_Duran

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Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2004, 01:21:02 PM »
Adam,

There is a big difference between the strategic use of natural rock outcroppings and a course where the level of difficulty is largely the result of rocky terrain.  I can't recall any problems with outcroppings at Black Mesa, but I thought that the rocks throughout the course just off the fairway made the course much less playable.  And I have a gouged 53SW to prove it.

Why anyone would import boulders into the line of play is not clear to me.  And why an owner would use decorative or landscape rocks and stones near the greens is beyond comprehension.

By the way, like the pot bunker in the middle of the fairway on the long southbound par 4 at the Rawls Course (13 or so), I liked the boulder in the middle of the 17th hole at Sherwood, though it looks much bigger on TV than it really is.  Getting stymied there like Duval was one year really is a rub of the green.  BTW, I found the pot bunker at Rawls, and it was no picnic.

Dan_Callahan

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Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2004, 04:25:23 PM »
Belgrade Lakes in Maine has as an unbelievable number of rocks and boulders on the course. Evidently they unearthed tons of granite as they buldozed the fairways. They must have decided it would be too expensive to remove, so they just left it there. It's kind of silly looking, but certainly unique.


Doug Wright

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Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2004, 05:41:36 PM »
Adam F.,

This recent thread on Fossil Trace in Golden, Colorado engendered a goodly number of comments apropos of rocks...

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12483;start=0

I haven't played Fossil Trace yet so I'm withholding comment thereon.

Another course that uses them to great scenic, if not strategic, effect is Arrowhead Golf Course in southwest suburban Denver (RTJ Jr)--one of the most scenic courses I've ever seen with unbelievable red rock spires sticking out of the ground, though a wasted opportunity for the most part IMO.  :'( The courses at Mauna Lani also come to mind as particularly rocky courses of the volcanic kind.

I'm pretty dispassionate about rocks as hazards unless they hurt or help (see Hale Irwin, Pebble Beach) my golf shots--then I get quite passionate!  ;D

Best,

 



Twitter: @Deneuchre

Jack_Marr

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Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2004, 06:10:34 PM »
Connemara. They have rocks and fish as hazzards.  This is not me in the picture, by the way.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2004, 06:11:26 PM by Jack_Marr »
John Marr(inan)

Doug Siebert

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Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2004, 12:48:23 AM »
I was going to point out Connemara as well.  It is quite an amazing place, probably the closest any of us will get to knowing what it'd be like to play golf on the moon.

Didn't encounter any fish hazards though, perhaps I spent too much time in the rocks to see the fish laying on the grass :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

TEPaul

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2004, 07:16:43 AM »
I very much like the occasional use of rocks in golf architecture particularly if they're central and not that large. I'm not talking about huge rock ridges, I'm talking more about the sort of flattish fieldstone type rock and even in areas that are central to play. Conceptually, it can be highly strategic. But I very much recognize that it can also be highly unpopular with some or many golfers. The reason is obvious. When a ball hits a rock it's anything but a soft landing as it is in even the most strategic bunker!  ;)

A_Clay_Man

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2004, 09:12:22 AM »
Yeas, Tom. But isn't that the "big unpredictable" that's missing from many modern designs and maintenance of those designs?

Lou- The rocky terrain is not that bad at Black Mesa, as it is here in the four corners. Many an iron get character grooves from playing shots off of them.   On the Las Companas sunset course, Jack has a hole with a pond cut into the fairway. The pond is surrounded by perhaps 15 yards of rocks, shipped in no doubt. I found the look Mickey Mouse, no matter what the engineers say.

On Rick Phelps' new one to open this summer, Antler Creek. The engineers shored-up every turn of the wash with lots and lots of red rock. One wall they built, fell, so I believe they had a second firm finish. ;)

Jfaspen

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2004, 10:09:34 AM »
The first hazard I thought of was the rocks that guard the 18th at Bay Hill.  Although not as numerous as some of the pictures posted in this thread, I feel it is a great placement.  It gives the golfer a smidgen of hope when his ball hits the rocks instead of plunging directly into the water.

Jeff

TEPaul

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2004, 10:17:55 AM »
"Yeas, Tom. But isn't that the "big unpredictable" that's missing from many modern designs and maintenance of those designs?"

Adam:

It certainly is. But it's also that obviously not enough golfers like or agree with that "Big Unpredictable"!

TEPaul

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2004, 10:32:18 AM »
Jeffrey:

Personally, I hate those artifical rocks that are constructed all around the edges of hazards such as the 18th of Bay Hill. In the context of my "Big World" theory of golf architecture, though, I think they should stay because they fit in with a lot of the rest of the artifical look of Bay Hill and I recognize that there're lots of golfers who like that look and playability.

The type of rock I'm talking about, though, would be something like a flat fieldstone that's basically about 1-2 ft square that's probably been in the ground for 5,000 years that could be left right in the middle of the opening of a green entrance that's about 20 paces wide! You know it's there--it gets in your head, you know you could hit it with an otherwise well struck shot, you know you'll be doing something to try to avoid it but you also know with the size of it and the size of the green entrance your chances of hitting it are somewhere between 1-25 to 1-50 even if you hit a shot good enough to get into the entrance to the green! It's so small in comparison to where it is, if you hit it instead of screaming unfair and unpredicatable just realize that maybe today just isn't your day!     ;)

What the Hell, if you do hit it and are philosophical enough about it to realize it just may not be your day--it may even make you remember to fasten your seatbelt on the way home which just may turn out to save your life when that little old lady crashes into you right out of the club's entrance!

You see, I really to believe in what I call the "incredibly small increments of fate!"
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 10:37:30 AM by TEPaul »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2004, 10:35:48 AM »
Just like the sprinkler heads that have been in the ground for at least the last twenty years. ;D

Jfaspen

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2004, 10:41:11 AM »
Ok Paul, fair enough :)

Try to think back a couple years.  I think it was Phil v. Tiger in prime time golf..  Course might have been Bighorn, but I am not sure.  I remember it was a close match til Phil put his tee shot on the back 9 in back of a boulder that was left in the fairway.  At least I think this is what happened.  Perhaps someone else can provide a better recollection.

Jeff

THuckaby2

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2004, 10:45:24 AM »
Jeffrey:

That was Duval v. Tiger, and it was at Sherwood CC in SoCal.

Lou Duran played there recently and reported that said boulder was not nearly as big in person as it looked on TV.... Duval had very bad placement to get right behind it.

Some might call that bad luck, some might call it a bad shot.

 ;)

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2004, 10:49:01 AM »
Jeff,

That was David Duval (back before he hired the team of Baker-Finch/Beck as swing coach) who did that.  He hit one dead straight down the middle and landed behind the boulder at Sherwood late in the match.  The announcers 'debated' the placement of it.  It was kind of ugly, but as they say, don't hit it there.

THuckaby2

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2004, 10:51:29 AM »
Scott:

You know what they say about great minds.

 ;D

TH

TEPaul

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2004, 10:57:07 AM »
Adam:

Sprinkler heads are man-made and should go for numerous reasons.  ;)

It's been years since I posted this ultimate hard-luck sprinkler head story so I'll post it again as it apropos here.

This involved a good friend of mine, Mark Shuman, who's part of that crowd at Philly CC, very much including Chet Walsh who are so mathematically crafty and coony it's almost like they have a permanent leaderboard complete with the cut line and leader scores implanted in their brains. I'm not kidding about that--year in and year out they're really amazingly accurate that way!

Anyway, Mark Shuman comes to the last hole at Wilmington CC in the US Amateur qualifier and he just KNOWS (which of course turned out to be absolutely correct) that he needs a par on that par 5 hole to qualify on the line (not the playoff line)!

He's standing out there in the fairway over his second shot after a great drive and he knows he can reach the green in two over a fronting pond with any one of his woods just hit relatively solid. But he thinks why take the risk, it's easier to just hit a simple layup, then a simple wedge on the green and still make perhaps birdie and certainly a safe par.

So he decides to lay up. The next question is with what? He calculates he can hit up to a good 7 iron and still come up short of the pond. Then he remembers Ben Hogan's adage that if you're gonna lay up make sure you really do lay up. So Mark starts thinking about an 8 iron but then he thinks what if I flush that or blade it a bit or something, so he decides on a 9 iron, takes it out, puts it back and says to his caddie, if I AM GOING TO LAY UP I'm really going to lay up and he grabs his wedge, hits it beautifully about 45 yards short of the pond, it hits a sprinkler head right in the middle of the fairway---KABOINK--and takes off into the air and travels about 50 more yards in the air right into the pond and there goes the US Amateur by one shot!

;)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 10:58:48 AM by TEPaul »

michael j fay

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2004, 11:09:26 AM »
There is a course in Glouster MA known as Bass Rocks. The rocks are everywhere and many of the diving areas are blind.
You can strike a perfect drive and end up 50 yards into the rough or lost.

Nice set of greens, some very good golf holes, not a lot of fun to play!

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2004, 03:09:13 PM »
There's a place near my home which I envisioned as a green site (I imagine many of us have a tendency to see golf holes all over the place) a thought that caused me to start this thread - It's a nice flattish spot on a knoll about 30 feet high. The entire front of the knoll is a smooth, gently rounded face of solid rock - an area about 20 feet high, and 50 feet wide.

I though it made an interesting par 3 possibility, provided the area around was clear - a rock like that would be a scary and unpredictable hazard - the ball might go left - right - or onto the green - but it's not severe enough of a slope to bounce the ball straight back.

Martin Del Vecchio

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Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2004, 03:42:03 PM »
Michael, I am a member at Bass Rocks in Gloucester, MA.  While there are several holes with blind tee shots into rock fields (#1 is the best/worst example), I wouldn't say they the rocks are "everywhere".

And we think that this makes it a fun place to play!

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Rocks as hazards
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2004, 06:28:44 PM »
There's a course here in Nova Scotia called Granite Springs. There's rock EVERYWHERE. Very unforgiving place. But still, as long as you're not a really high handicapper to begin with...

..it's a pretty fun challenge.

Here's a link - check out the pics of number 10!

http://granitespringsgolf.com

choose course - layout/description - then check out 10.

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