[D. Kilfara]

Just thought I'd do a little poll, here, for everyone who has played the Old Course. (If you haven't played TOC before, please don't respond.) One big request to all posters - please do NOT read the other posts in the thread after this one before posting yourself. I'd like for everyone to post their own opinions rather than responding to previous posts, if that's OK.

Anyway, if you have played the Old Course, please answer the following three questions:

1) How many times have you played it? (An approximation is fine if you've played it more times than you can count or remember)

2) What do you *currently* think of TOC? Please summarize your thoughts in 25 words or more. (Be as verbose as you wish, but please be a little more analytical than "I loved it!", "It was OK", or "It sucked!".)

3) Is your current opinion of TOC higher, lower or roughly the same now than it was before you'd ever actually played it? In other words, what do you think about the course now relative to when you'd only heard stories about it, seen photos of it or watched tournaments on television played on it? (A short answer would suffice, but if you wish to embellish, by all means do so.)

I'd encourage all GCA lurkers and regulars to respond - if you're normally hesitant about posting herein for whatever reason, please don't be! Your opinion matters, to me and probably many others out there, and especially when it comes to the Old Course, there are no right or wrong answers to questions 2 and 3. Thanks for your time...

Cheers,
Darren

[Jim_H]

I have played it 4-5 times--the earliest 15 years ago and the most recent 5 years ago.  At the risk of blasphemy, I would agree with its listing in the recent Golf Magazine as one of the most overrated courses in the world.  Architecturally, it is bland--except for the 17th hole which may be one the best holes anywhere.  
I love the history of the place, but I think that it has been cheapened by the tourist spots around the course.  I also object to the employees of the course (the caddies especially), who have gotten up in the golf craze and act like they are a part of the entertainment.  They interfere with the aura of the place.
In answer to your last question, the expectation of the course exceeded the reality--unfortunately.

[CHrisB]

1) How many times have you played it?
7 times, first as a 15-year old in 1985, then 6 times in the late 90's when I played in the St. Andrews Links Trophy tournament.

2) What do you *currently* think of TOC?
I think it is world-class; one of the very best courses I've seen or played, one where every wrinkle of ground is important, and one where every shot demands full attention (that's saying something, because on almost every course there are shots you can just hit without thinking, but not on TOC; every shot is like a chess move).  More than any other course I've played, at TOC it is not enough to hit solid shots; you have to produce the right trajectory and spin, or else the ball will get away from you and you'll have long putts or chips all day.  And many of the holes can be played in many different ways (I think the complaint that the only strategy is "stay left for safety, go right for angle" is too simplistic); I'm still trying to figure out how to play #12, and I think I play #14 a different way every time.  TOC has perhaps the best par-4 I've played (#17), definitely the best par-5 I've seen (#14), and one of the best par-3's (#11).  No, it's not the most stunningly scenic course, but as a playing ground it is one-of-a-kind.  I have a respect for the place and the course that I don't quite have for any other.

3) Is your current opinion of TOC higher, lower or roughly the same now than it was before you'd ever actually played it?
I first played it when I was 15, so I hadn't heard much of it (besides watching the '84 Open, but I was rooting for Watson and didn't know much about the course except for the Road Hole) and was able to form some opinions first-hand.  I'll just say that each time I play it my appreciation for the course grows.  On just about every hole, I learn something new each time I play.  Maybe one day that will translate into a good score!

[Brian Phillips]

Darren,

Good post!  You will think of our match the rest of your life ...

Q1: Twice and both times in 25 mph winds.  Both times off mats and once to a crappy winter 11th green.

Q2:  I was surprised first time how bland and boring it is to stand on the tee of most of the holes.  I still can't really remember a lot of the holes.  I wasn't impressed with anything first time around in fact I think I was bored by the turn.  Second time around (again in a gale) I started to notice the wonderful chipping areas and approaches to the greens.  I still found the driving strategy pretty boring - go left if you are safe for a difficult approach or go right for an easier approach (hopefully Darren will agree but I am a pretty good driver and can on good days choose which side to go down).  It is a course that still frustrates me in my mind more than any other course.  There isn't really any other course in the world that annoys me more and makes mw want to come back for more punishment!

Q3:  My current opinion is lower than what I had before I played it but I think with time it will continue to rise.  Should a course require 30 rounds before you understand (or think you understand) it?  That is probably the weakest thing about it.  

One last point - if anyone says that they understand and love TOC after one round they are (imho) LYING!

Cheers

Brian.

[Rick]

I've played it twice, once in '77 then again in '97.

I've played about 30-40 links style courses in Great Britain and Ireland and would rate TOC slightly above the middle of the pack. That said, I've two points to make:

First, I think the more one played it, the more one might appreciate it's nuances. Playing it once every twenty years doesn't lend to that appreciation.

Second, as a mid single digit handicapper, playing tees that are so far forward that ladies might be embarrassed at it's length doesn't offer the opportunity to value the course at it's finest.

Count me as one who thought the course didn't meet my lofty expectations. However, I did enjoy the "experience" of St. Andrews and should I ever return, I would play the course again despite my feelings about it.

[Tom Doak]

I've played The Old Course about ten times, the first of those when I was 15 years old.  I also caddied over it about 40-50 times in the summer of 1982, which helped immensely in learning about the course.

I think it's the greatest strategic course in the world ... once you have a map of it in your head.  Your strategy changes more from shot to shot than on any other course in the world, but if you don't know the course you miss out on that.

My opinion of it is much higher than it was at 15 years old.  The number of hazards makes it so interesting to watch -- the player who hits it 160 yards should play some holes completely differently than the player who hits it 190, or 220.

[Buck Wolter]

No ... but.
As a younger man I was backpacking, read pubcrawling, through Europe and ended up in Edinburgh. Though I couldn't afford to play as I had $20/day for food and lodging, I did take the opportunity to make a pilgrimage to the Old Course where I walked the course with a 4 some of Americans. Had no idea what I was looking for or what holes were important but was blown away. Visited Old Tom's golf shop and walked around the town as well.

After lurking here for some time now and reading the discussions about why certain holes are so great I can not wait to get back and play.

[billb]

1) How many times have you played it?

Once, the last round of a fall 1997 odyssey - 16 links courses in 15 days including Carnoustie, Muirfield, Cruden Bay, Dornoch, Nairn, Berwick West, Elie, Lundin, Leven, as well as some lesser known such as Fortrose & Rosmarkie and Goswick in the north of England. I only mention this as it gave me a fantastic perspective on links golf when I played TOC.

2) What do you *currently* think of TOC?

I think it is an absolutley fascinating golf course and I very much look forward to playing it again, hopefully with a couple of my best golfing friends. As a decided non professional in the field of golf course architecture, I cannot discuss the merits of the design, I will leave that to the many qualified people in this group. As a decent golfer (6-8 handicap) who has been fortunate to play more than his fair share of golf courses, I can only say that my round at TOC had a spirtual quality that I have never experienced before or since. Yes, I read and reread "Golf In the Kingdom" before the trip, as well as several other spiritual discussions of the game (Michael Bamberger's "To the Linksland" was especially good).
Who was it that said something about "I did not play the golf course, the golf course played me???" Many of us joke about "the Gods of Golf", well, whatever or whoever they are, they took me into their hands that day and guided me around TOC.

3) Is your current opinion of TOC higher, lower or roughly the same now than it was before you'd ever actually played it?  

Most definitely higher. I have spent some time learning about golf course architecture in the years since then, and TOC is always mentioned, often with the utmost respect, in any serious treatise on the subject.
Imho, TOC presented a good challenge to the best in the world during the 2000 Open. How Tiger played 72 holes without being in a bunker is a mystery, but Tiger is full of mysteries. The weather was a non factor...lets hope for some links weather for the next Open Championship there (2005???). As we saw from Muirfield Saturday last year, even Tiger can succumb to the wind and rain.

[damarnek]

1. I have played The Old Course seven times, beginning in the late 90's, and have tried to return nearly every year since then.

2. I think the course is an absolute joy to play, it's strategic and historic aspects are, in my opinion, equally wonderful.

3. My current opinion re. the course is that I hold it in higher esteem each and every time I play it.  The thrill of driving into St. Andrews and catching the first glimpse of the course itself, is amazing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Darren,

Played it once.

I thought it was very sporty, very thought provoking with respect to shot selection.
I played with three locals so I had the benefit of their unlimited experience.  I understood, between the information my eyes detected and the information that my three playing partners provided, that additional experience is a great teacher and asset, and that the course would reveal more of itself and its architecture with each succeeding round.
Had I not played with three locals, the round might have been more exploritory in nature, but I think the discovery process would have been a lot of fun.  I could see that learning to hit a variety of shots in a number of situations would be fun, just like at NGLA.

I have a higher opinion after having played it.

Once you've hit a ball close to a brick sod wall you gain a heightened appreciation of, and an overpowering desire to avoid bunkers.

I like wind, and fighting or using it, so that element was highly enjoyable.

I also liked returning a sub-par score after hitting my tee shot out-of-bounds on # 1.  Plus, the fellows I played with were a delight.

I was puzzled by certain bunker locations.  I just couldn't understand their existance until I was told that the course also played backwards and at that moment their existance made perfect sense.

My regret is that I never had the opportunity to play the course backwards.

[ForkaB]

I've played it 5-6 times, mostly in the late 70's early 80's and have walked it a few more times, most recently this past weekend.

Because of its extensive use of "blindness" lack of absence does make the heart grow fonder, but I am not sure that this does not apply to almost any course any of us are familiar with.

Virtually all of us play TOC off the forward tees, from which it is not at all a test of driving to the reasonably fit, given current equipment.  ChrisB may be one of the few of us who has actually played from the tips (in the Links Trophy).  Chris--is this the case, and if so, does it affect your opinion?  Would you feel the same way if your last 5 rounds had been played on a 6300 yards OC?

I ask this latter question because I believe that truly great courses can in fact hold their heads up high even when played from the "members" tees.  I'm not sure about TOC using that criterion.

[Pete Lavallee]

1.)  Six times, twice in '86 and 4 times in '89.

2.)  The Old Course is a truely great test of golf. It's has a mystery about it that confounds you and makes you want to play it more to unlock her secrets. The variability of TOC means never a dull moment, you'll play different shots every day, noone could ever become bored confining himself to playing only there. The random nature of the hazards seems to punish and reward all classes of golfers equally. It calls for the greatest repertoire of shots than any other course I've played. The strategy of daring to take on the trouble to the right for a better angle on the second shot, and paying the price for bailing left, is a bit repeticious, but this type of strategy is the soul of golf.

3.)  No matter how well you study and try to prepare yourself to tackle TOC, you just will fall short. One trip around is not even a start to understand what is going on there. Because I've been lucky enough to spend a prolonged time there, I'd say I have a higher opinion. With multiple plays it becomes apparent that the praise heaped upon it was certainly justified, I doubt I'd have that same opinion with just one round there.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

1) How many times have you played it?-I have played it exactly four times--the first time being my most memorable. I almost sodded my pants I was that excited. I spent the better part of two weeks in St. Andrews, forgoing seeing the other Championship venues other then Carnoustie. I made it a point to walk the Old Course everyday. I learned more about the course by watching others play it. Choosing to pick a certain place and just sit there for hours with a lunch consisting of those egg salad sandwiches and Diet Coke bought from the cafeteria above the St. Andrews Wollen Mill Shop alongside the 18th.

"I now am the only American duffer who ever went to St. Andrews and did not play a round on the famous "Old Course." But I can tell ever so much more about a course, watching other people play it.--O.B. Keeler from What I Saw of British Links, The American Golfer, September 1926

My favorite observation spot? Sort of tucked away in a gorse free clearing alongside the 11th tee, where you can see the all of the happenings; from left to right, part of #12, #11, #7, #10, #8 and #9. One spot six holes you can observe play--AMAZING!

2) What do you *currently* think of TOC?-Despite all of the changes to the sand hazards which are giving it a very well kept--on its way to fast becoming an Americanized appearance. I still think that this is the place were anyone that really wants to understand what the Game is all about; how it is played and how diverse each and every persons mindset can be, they need to go there. I think that marketing the Old Course and St. Andrews is a very BAD thing. This is the main reason why so many don't understand the course and that it will ultimately be changed further and further. (Look at the Eden Course for example and how such a wonderful course has been decimated by the need for a driving range that for the most part is never used by the tourists that frequent the Grey Auld Toon. Tourists coming in are usually part of a Group Tour where they frequent for one day and one night. They come and go faster then a bullet train, yet they are the ones the Links Trust cannot seemingly do without. Yes, they bring money into the town, and while it may be a good thing to the heartbeat of the community, ultimately commericialism will dictate a false sense of reason.

3) Is your current opinion of TOC higher, lower or roughly the same now than it was before you'd ever actually played it? In other words, what do you think about the course now relative to when you'd only heard stories about it, seen photos of it or watched tournaments on television played on it?

Darren, I'm a devout believer in God, yet I'm hoping and praying that my Higher Power (You know, FEARING!) understands that I'm hoping Heaven is in fact the Old Course  and the town of St. Andrews, only with temperatures always 70 to 80 degrees!:) (aka Royal Melbourne!:)) I hold the Old Course and the town in the highest regard, probably more then my own home. As much as I studied the course for years, I could never fathom the actual putting surfaces. They along with the placement of the sand hazards are so freekin' phenominal, I can't even find the words.

For someone to make the statement, (And I'm not trying to be insulting here) "One last point - if anyone says that they understand and love TOC after one round they are (imho) LYING!" then they really aren't that impressionable. The first time I met the Old Course, was the most influential moment of my life--and that was just standing on the steps near the 18th green/1st tee! Never in my life nor since, did I ever think something could be so perfect. It screams at you in the face! Further studying the rest of the holes, especially on the outward nine will reveal everything you need to know about the Game. The closing nine will make sure you never forget it!

Perhaps it would be better serving if you didn't go there for a substantial amount of time, instead reading the material that explains the course much better, thus allowing yourself the opportunity to grow in knowledge and then actually want to study the course much deeper.  But you are in good company Brian.

....In his first British Open in 1921 at St. Andrews, he played so poorly in the third round that he tore up his scorecard.

"It was," he would reflect later, "the most inglorious failure of my golfing life."

In retrospect, it was also the most significant turning point of his golfing life. He would acknowledge that tearing up the scorecard was a "childish effort to make known publicly that such a misplay was not to be tolorated by a player of so much ability."--Dave Anderson writing of Bobby Jones, from The Greatest of the All--The Legend of Bobby Jones

And in closing--

You must use something besides shots and clubs, playing St. Andrews. I can learn more golf in a week on that course then in a year on many a sterling championship test in America."-Bobby Jones, as told to O.B. Keeler

So Brian, I ask you, Who are we to argue with Bobby Jones?

A great thread Darren. I know where your heart is!

[klindhurst]

I have played the course 4 times. Once I played up to 15 before I had to go in.

I think it's an excellent experience and quite a good golf course. I would deffinately play it again. You do have to get to know it a bit to appreciate its subtilties...

I did not think as much of the course originally as I do today. It's a good course but I don't think it would be as well respected if it was built 7 years ago by Fazio. I enjoying playing it because of its history and exposure on TV, although when you're there you don't recognize the holes you play or remember them afterwards. There are many many better courses, in my opinion.

[Brian Phillips]

Tommy,

You would have to ask people who have met me to answer your view of me that I am not that impressionable.  I can see that the whole TOC visit and the course does make a visit really exiting and is important historically.  

My point about loving and understanding the course is more architecturally than spiritually.

I am not ashamed to admit the fact that I cannot get my head around the course.  I just don't understand it yet.  I don't get IT on that course.  But as I was discussing with Darren all weekend I haven't given up!!  I have promised myself to play as often as I can and even walk it (which I haven't done yet) this next 6 months.

To be honest holes from 3 to 6 bore the tits off me.  I still can't really remember them properly.

You love TOC and it was and is important to you and is a long way for you to travel.  I can play TOC anytime I want so it isn't a huge spiritual thing for me.  Sand Hills was more of a wow factor and that place is spiritually important to me, probably because I had heard about it from this site and Tom's book.  When I got there it was even better than expected.

To me St. Andrews is the Disneyland of golf and the town and the Links Trust don't care about anyone unless you are spending money.  I pointed a couple of things out to Darren on Saturday when we played the New that really annoy me about the place like the driving range and the greenkeeping huts spoiling vistas on the courses.  The seems to be a total lack of looking at the finer details of the place by the Links Trust. Like the road hole bunker, it is a joke, my toilet is nearly bigger!!  The mounding is sharp and the finer details in the reconstruction are poor.

They charge £120 to play it in the summer which to me is ridiculous and greedy.  How the hell is someone supposed to understand it in a lifetime if you have to pay that amount 30 times!!

I feel the place is going rapidly downhill and it shouldn't be because it is the most important place on earth for golf.

Darren and I played golf with a really nice American but he didn't even know who Allan Robertson was. Now that churns my stomach..

BP

PS I promise to write a report of each round on the course and hopefully in ten years time I will have changed my mind but at the moment North Berwick is the course closest to my heart.

[TEPaul]

I've never played the course nor been anywhere near St Andrews, two things I consider the biggest gaps in my architectural understanding and ongoing education.

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

And I keep telling you to get your butt out of NJ and come and visit me.....

E-mail is fixed by the way.

You should drag Rocky and the Mayor with if you do come over!!

Bp

[TEPaul]

Brian;

I'm making some mental moves to come your way and get the old world education and understanding. Glad your email is fixed--it's about time--I'll be in touch.

But please don't tell me to get my butt out of New Jersey. I don't live in that bizarre state--God forbid! I live in the great state of Pennsylvania around the city of Brotherly Love, Philadelphia. Every so often I'll scoot on over into New Jersey under the cover of darkness but it's a dangerous place to be in all in all. Tony Soprano lives in New Jersey. Pat Mucci is there sometimes. Both are good people when you get to know them but their reputations are dreadful and one always has to be mindful of who one is seen with in various circles.

But Scotland will be different--I believe it will be a great relief! I hope things will be alright here if I come over there. Last time I came that way some grubby people tried to blow up New York City and the country's capital too.

[Evan Fleisher]

Okay, I'll bite...and I did not read a single post below yours Darren.

1) Once...during my pilgrimage to Scotland the summer of 1998.

2) My current opinion of TOC is that it is a very special course due to its place in golf's origins and history, and is a fun and challenging layout unlike just about any other course I've played.  The true links nature of the layout, the history of the town, the double greens, the sheds on 17 all add to the aura of the place, to me almost mystical in nature.  I can't wait for my next crack at 'er!

3) My current thoughts of TOC, having now played it, are HIGHER than before.  Pictures and stories just do not do the place justice...it must be experienced in person to really get the sense of history and tradition around the place.  Having the opportunity to spend our day there INSIDE the R&A as a member's guest helped a bit as well!

[Rick Shefchik]

1) Once -- May 1984.

2) I wished I was taller. If I hadn't been playing with two blokes from Northern England who were familiar with the course, I'd have had no idea where to aim. I have always found this disconcerting, no matter what the quality of the course, and perhaps that contributed to my absolutely dreadful driving (or it could have been the rented clubs.) Once I was in the fairway, however, I found the huge greens and the deep bunkers to be so unlike anything I'd ever seen before that the experience was richly enjoyable. I landed in Hell Bunker and made 9 on the hole; it was the first time I'd ever intentionally aimed a shot 180 degrees away from a target. Particularly memorable were the 11th and 17th, both of which are inimitable challenges. I kept thanking myself for jumping on the train in Edinburgh and making the trip to the Old Course.
 
3) When my round was over, I believed it was an easier course to score on than I would have imagined it to be, despite the fact that I shot a 92. I think that's the true essence of its greatness -- it is not forbiding, but instead roughs you up comfortably. And I still wished I were taller.

[Pete_Pittock]

I've played eight times since 1975. Three rounds in two days then, afterwards once each trip. Unfortunately, the wind has never reached 10 mph, but have played in fog and heavy rain.

My current opinion is that it the best museum I have ever visited, and in the top five courses I've played. It exposes your weaknesses and rewards your adaption to its demands.
A superb match play course, but demonstrably vulnerable to medal play. Probably a disappointment to visiting golfers who only once play the course, but fascinating to those who enjoy the ground game.
I lack the strength and athleticism to play the modern game,
my drives usually ending up near Granny Clark's Wynd on 18, so playing at TOC is usually an exciting exam in course management and calculation of ground effect. It has an uncanny way of getting into your head. A place where bunkers are traps, not impediments. Penal and strategic. The line of charm is where your ball ends up with its limitless options. Spent eight hours walking it on a Sunday morning.
My greatest remaining question (other than will I ever carry  the Swilcan Burn) is , when playing to the Eden green on the reverse course, was this the original Redan.

My opinion of TOC remains nearly the same as it was since I first played the course, or for that matter when going there was only a dream.

[Dan Kelly]

This won't be very helpful, but you asked!

1. Once.

2. I had a blast playing it, with a couple of old caddies -- but, unlike many courses, I don't think once is enough to have a valid opinion of the Old Course.

3. It follows that I can't even answer number 3!

Give me a dozen rounds, in various weather, from various tees, and I might have an opinion worth listening to. T'ain't like to happen, McGee!

[hoggmeister]

ok--I'll respond without reading the other posts.  Could be a big mistake.

Question #1--Played it once four years ago at the height of the season with my son ( 15 ) and two strangers from Flemington NJ who were complete jerks.  The starter was obnoxious, and the rangers were there to "move us along" at every hole. I made the mistake of not taking caddies and the caddies for the other two guys purposefully would not help us navigate the lunar landscape of a course. My wife will tell you it was the only time she has ever seen me walk off a golf course upset--and I was very upset.

Question #2--Hard to be objective given the "experience". I thought the course was fascinating and would like very much to try it again--I suspect it is very much an acquired taste. I found it relatively easy for  someone who hits it straight but short. I shot right around my 13 handicap. Of the link courses I have played in Scotland and Ireland I would rank it in the middle of the pack. That might change if I played it again.

Question #3--My opinion of the course is that I was a bit disappointed--perhaps the overall experience got in the way. I had read so much about the course--I knew it once played counterclockwise , etc etc --that perhaps it was natural to be let down. The town is beautiful and as an architect I found that part of the two day visit much more entertaining.

Now off to the other posts.  Everone else think the course is the greatest thing since sliced bread?

[D. Kilfara]

My thanks to everyone who has posted so far. Keep 'em coming! Although, if you followed the instructions at the start of the thread, that last bit of instruction should be irrelevant.

I'll give my answers to the three questions when things begin to slow down a bit...

Cheers,
Darren

[Steve Lang]

1) How many times have you played it?

Once, on a lovely sunny September day in 1996, only 12-15 mph wind.

2) What do you *currently* think of TOC?

Let me preface by saying that I also walked it some on  Sunday before playing on Monday.  I think that my feelings and spirits during play made the experience extraordinary, and the focus from studying it helped me shoot a 77 with little problem, when I had a 6 index back then.  The strategy offered from my partners' caddies was of immeasureable value, beyond my initial mantra of "when in doubt go left."
Since it took a couple of holes to get used to putting cross-country, I know that round could have been better.  So I must think the Championship pressures, pin set-ups, and weather conditions really make this course the challenge it can be.

3) Is your current opinion of TOC higher, lower or roughly the same now than it was before you'd ever actually played it?

All the above.  Lower in considering general course conditions, higher in considering the environmental impacts faced by players to play well in more normal "bad" conditions. Roughly the same on the value of a good hip flask and the merits of a good match play venue.

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