[Mark_Fine]

As some of you know, I am working on a little project with Forrest Richardson on golf hazards.  We have contacted quite a few people about their thoughts on various hazards and one of our questions was about famous ones.  (By the way if we missed you and you'd like to offer your ideas, we'd love to have them - please email one of us.)

Anyway, I don't believe we had a single vote for a hazard from a Donald Ross course.  For such a famous architect and one who designed so many golf courses on so many different sites, does that surprise anyone?  Does that say something about his penchant for the less dramatic?  Thoughts anyone?  

Mark

[T_MacWood]

The creative use of the stream at Inverness, Scioto, Oak Hill, Havana and many other courses. The lake at #16 Oakland Hills. Early on he employed a bizarre sand hazard with small mountains of sand within the bunker…at some point very early he rejected this idea. There is also an unusual bobby-pin shaped bunker at Inverness and also at Scioto (NLE). The interesting bunkering scheme originally found at Aronomink (NLE).

[SPDB]

Seminole has a number of hazards which i would consider famous, particularly the diagonal one on 18.

There is some really interesting bunkering that has recently been restored to Point Judith by Prichard. It is worth investigating - I've never seen any shapes that are similar.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

One of the reasons famous hazards may not be attributed to Ross is his basic feeling about the use of particularly bunker hazards in golf architecture and their recoverability or penality. Ross had a number of thoughts on the degrees of recoverability and explained in his book what needed to be done architecturally and construction-wise to accomplish those degrees---degrees, by the way, that never did get into the truly penal.

This may be why Ross has always been referred to as one of the best "second shot" architects or one of the truly "democratic" architects. Basically you lose shots on a Ross course in very small ways--you don't really ever get clobbered by some famous ultra penal bunker and such. You don't generally because Ross apparently didn't believe in that and said so specifically.

He didn't really buy water hazard forced carries and said no course should ever have more than two of them max! He didn't really believe in trees in architecture to a particularly functional degree.

Ross was a green and green-end architect primarily using orientations, internal slopes and counters, shapes mostly in combination with a one side bunker to highlight the challenges of the foregoing etc.

Why Ross was probably considered the real "democratic" architect basically offering real nuance instead of something like a super dramatic hazard or bunkering is interesting---he explained that too.

[BCrosby]

I think Ross would be very happy that few of his hazrds are memorable.

It's a sign that most of his courses follow the design principles that were near and dear to him.

Bob

[Dan_Callahan]

For me, what comes to mind when I think of a memorable Ross hazard isn't one hole in particular, but instead a composite. On virtually every Ross design I've seen in New England, he makes great use of bunkers and/or mounds that look like they are greenside, but instead may be a good 15 to 20 yards short. It's always a surprise to think that you've hit a great shot—dropping the ball just over a bunker to a tucked pin—only to find yourself with a 30-foot chip.

[Mark_Fine]

Good comments guys.  Don't have much arguement with any of them.  Ross clearly didn't have the flair for the dramatic as many other designers of his time.  

Tom M,
Do you have any pictures of those hazards that NLE?

[SPDB]

Mark,
Dan is right. I don't think a discussion of Ross' bunkering can be started or finished without a visit to some of his New England work, where arguably his most creative work took place (probably because he worked out of Boston/RI). Beside the aforementioned Pt. Judith, I think it is worth visiting the North Shore clubs (Salem and Essex Cty) around Ross' house.

Not surprisingly, Essex Cty includes some of his most interesting work - it was literally right outside his front door. The bunkering and use of natural hazards is terrific.

[Chris_Clouser]

What about the quarry at Gulph Mills?

The use of that on that par three fourth was astounding when I saw it last year.  I think in Tom Paul's write up on the course that there may be an aerial of the hole and how it looked originally.  The use of the creek on the third hole was very inspired as well.  And how about the incline of the 18th as a hazard?  

[T_MacWood]

What I find most interesting about Ross is the different styles of bunkers he produced over the years. The prototypical grass faced bunkers restored to nearly all his courses--Salem, Charles River are examples.  An old fashioned angular grass-faced look at Inverness, early Scioto and Brae Burn. A more eligant sand splased look at Aronomink, Seminole, Palm Beach and Oyster Harbors....and even #2. And some with unusual capes and bays Seminole and Beverly...both different from the other.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW said:

"The interesting bunkering scheme originally found at Aronomink (NLE)."

We've been over this one before, Mark, but restoring what Tom MacWood calls that interesting bunker scheme at Aronimink (NLE) was an issue the club and Ron Prichard mused over long and hard.

They had some of the best of Ross's own field bunker drawings Ron Prichard had ever seen and they were at a dilemma as to why only a few years after opening an aerial showed little sets of 2 and 3 bunkers where Ross's own drawings had only called for a single generally bigger one.
Eventually they concluded that J.B. McGovern probably took liberties with those bunkers that Ross may not have been aware of.

Tom MacWood thinks the individual looks and features of a few of Ross's regional foreman is a neat thing to preserve and restore because it lends Ross courses a certain individuality although it may have little or nothing to do with Ross himself (he is credited with so many courses some say he may not have even seen up to a quarter of them!).

I do see Tom MacW's point here but in the case of Aronimink they were really dedicated to restoring to Ross himself and at least they knew with those real Ross field bunker drawings they had Ross himself in their hands!

Ron Prichard really did some research on that too and he concluded that the only other Ross course he'd seen those little 2 and 3 bunker sets on was at little Jeffersonville G.C nearby that Ron restored. Ron believes that Ross probably never saw that one either and he found that the foreman there was very likely the same J.B. McGovern probably taking liberties again.

There were a few other residual issues like construction and maintenance costs between the two types but I will guarantee you if Aronimink and Ron Prichard could've been as sure that those little sets of 2 and 3 bunkers really were Ross as they were that the other ones they had really were Ross they would've probably restored the little 2 and 3 set bunkers.

They were into doing as pure a Ross restoration as they could come up with and their thinking was why guess when you could be sure?

Ron even called me one time and asked me what I thought about that dilemma. The decision they ended up making is a  decision I completely agree with, by the way.

[Mark_Fine]

SPDB,
I've played a bunch of Ross's NE courses and love most of them.  This thread isn't meant to be negative about Ross in any way.  I just found it interesting that we got back dozens of responses on great hazards and no one listed a Ross hazard as one of their favorites.  

Tom M listed a few here but I'm not sure any of us would list the pond at Oakland Hills for example as one of the all time greats.  Obviously Player made the hole somewhat famous but the hazard itself is not terribly exciting.

Bill,
I wasn't just interested in the "look" of hazards.  For example, one of the most popular answers was the devil's asshole on #10 at PV.  
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Anyone care to guess what were some of the top hazards listed by an astute list of well traveled golfers, architects, writers,...?  

[Dan_Callahan]

Going back to the Ross courses in New England, I think you will see some accolades given to the 10th hole at the Orchards when the women play the open there this summer. Depending on how they set it up, this hole can be a brutal par three. From the tee, the green is so sloped that it is hard to pick out a landing area. Anything short runs down a shaved bank into a water hazard. A shot that is long requires a chip back up the slope and, quite possibly, over the green and down into the hazard. If the greens are slick, the hazard may well be a focus of the Open.

[TEPaul]

Chris Clouser:

It appeared when Ross (or other architects such as Flynn) found a litte quarry like the one that GMGC's (#4) is built across they used it in the very same way---a very short par 3 from one side to the other. Ross apparently did this exactly at Lulu as he did later at GMGC! Flynn did about the same thing at Manufacturers #8 except he put the green in the quarry not on the other side.

The interesting thing about that little quarry at GMGC is that Ross did not use it at all on his 7th hole but about 20 years later Maxwell did use it on his redesign of that hole.

What Maxwell did on that green and green-end may not have been the best or maximum use of that quarry and green-end and the hole sort of devolved into the mundane and one-dimensional over many decades. But the research into Maxwell's redesign of that hole uncovered some apparently extremely interesting facts, not provable but close. (Some of those apparent facts had to do with ANGC's #13)

And so in the last year we redesigned the green and green-end on that hole into what we figured Maxwell should have done or would have done if the club had let him---which apparently they didn't.

The general intent of what he (Maxwell) may have been trying to do there and what we ended up just doing really may have fascinating historical context.

Anyway, the hole is no longer mundane and one-dimensional--it's starting to fly with more interesting options now (basically using more and highlighting that quarry again, and after a year in play most members love that hole again and the rest say they're confused by it but are looking forward to figuring out how to play it some day.

That's the exact reaction I was hoping for.

But on that little quarry par 3 (#4) Ross did create a huge sand bunker in the base of the quarry but that was removed on the recommendation of Wayne Stiles in 1940.

Gil thought that bunker deep in the bottom of the quarry was about the neatest thing he'd seen but alas the restoration committee would not let him restore it!

[michael j fay]

What Mr. Ross designed when designing a golf course was a contunuum. From 1st tee to 18 green, the theme does not change.

I shudder when someone from a Ross course begins to tell me about their "signature hole". If a Ross course has a signature hole, it was named such by someone other than Ross. As I go through all of the Ross courses I have played the only "signature holes" are ones that were pointed out for marketing purposes.

The same is true of Mr. Ross's bunkering and use of natural hazards. It was just part of the continuum. I bunker is meant to fit in, not stand out. If running water appeared on the golf course, Mr. Ross would work it into the framework of the course.

Mr. Ross gave you 18 good to great holes, his product was a golf course, sound and natural. In most cases he gave the people he was building for a golf course with 18 good playable holes.

[T_MacWood]

Mark
I misread the question I thought you were looking for famous or interesting hazards, not necessarily great. I would disagree with you characterization of Ross's original concept for #16...a rare hole with a unique and unusual strategy...with the pond as the key ingredient.

If you are looking for great, skip the extremely quirky hazards at Oakley.

The dunes he incorporated at Palm Beach are interesting, not sure about great.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom M,
No I am looking for all of the above.  You are right in that the pond on #16 I guess is famous so it should be considered.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I believe Dick Wilson is responsible for the current 18th at Seminole and not Donald Ross.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I have Ross's drawings of Seminole around here somewhere but I believe what Wilson did on Seminole's #18 is just move the green to the left up closer to the dunes.

[SPDB]

Tom - that was my understanding, as well. I thought Wilson's work at Seminole, notwithstanding his own opinion, was largely (if not exclusively) focused on the green

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & SPDB,

I think you might also notice that Wilson moved the tee from thr right of # 17 green to the dune above and to the left of
# 17 green, totally changing the strategy on the dirve and second shot.

The photo in the locker room confirms this.

[SPDB]

If Wilson's work was that substantial and Ross can't be given credit for 18 (jury is still out in my mind, i've always heard Wilson only did greens), then we can choose another of the splendid hazards there - how about 4? or 6? terrific.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Ross's original hole drawing of Seminole's 18th shows a tee at 431yd slightly to the left of the fairway and another tee at 406yd perhaps 50 yards to the left of the longer tee. There's no relationship on the hole drawing to the 17th green, however. The fairway diagonal bunkering left is drawn as four irregular bunkers at a more in-line diagonal and running about 80 yards.

[michael j fay]

Ross has a wonderful quarry hole at the Country Club of Buffalo.

Although Ross did not rely on hazards as much as some do today he did build some horrific bunkers (i.e. the fairway bunkers left off the 4th tee at Brae Burn, the Huge pit short and right at number 12 at Wnnamoisett and who can forget the inverted bunkers on # 1 at Rhode Island Country Club.

Seems that a lot of Architects depend on the hazard to make the hole memorable. Ross holes are memorable, the hazards are an adjunct.

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