[Evan_Green]

Would like to do a straw poll on what is The Best example of Cross Bunkering

Here are my two nominees:

12 St. Andrews
17 Baltusrol

Does anyone have a better one?

[Brian Phillips]

Evan,

I am not saying it is better but I like the 6th at Kingsbarns.  Two bunkers located 225 yards and 255 yards from the back tee dug in a two tiered fairway.

Stay low and before the bunkers means you have a blind shot to the green, take on the bunkers to get to the top level gives you a great view of the green or even a chance of hitting the green with the tee shot.

One of my favourite holes that I have played.

Brian

[A_Clay_Man]

Peeble Beach's cross-bunkering is dear to my heart. Namely; #2, the sand here is better than the grass walls.
 #4, Aprox. 185 from tee, to carry, uphill, plays more especially when windy.
#13's isn't completly across but so perfectly placed as to cause havoc for those who flinch off the tee.
16 and 17 are also amazing specimens.

[BCrosby]

No mention of Hell Bunker?

The cross bunker on 17 at Muirfield?

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

I love the cross-bunkers on #17 at Muirfield, especially in combination with the bunkering on the inside of the dogleg.  If you shy away from those, it's harder to get over the cross bunkers with your second, when playing into the wind.

They are just frightening to look at!

[John_Lovito]

I would add to the list the the par 5 16th at Plainfield.  A good drive is required to have a chance to clear the cross bunkers on your second shot.  To clear the bunkers usually requires around 190-210 yards and the payoff is worth it as the fairway past the bunkers slopes downhill leaving only a short iron into the hole.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I love good bunkering and cross bunkers.  

Pine Valley has a number of cross bunkers/waste areas.  HHA is the most famous.

Cypress has many centerline bunkers, though few go across the whole fairway.

A favorite pair of mine are on #4 at Bethpage (Black).  Two sets of cross bunkers to deal with on 2nd shot is tee shot is good enough.  2nd set is blind.

Certainly NGLA has some.  #8 is Pat's favorite, it seems.

#15 French Creek makes it a strategic hole.

[Dan Herrmann]

I think Gil Hanse also did a pretty neat "near" cross bunker at French Creek #2:



(The tee in the background is #8)

[Scott_Burroughs]

Dan,

There's two sets of tees in the background.    Upper back is #8 and lower is #9.

#2 green is nasty to hit into.  Falls away and run-up shots can't really be done with that steep slope you can see in front.

[Dan Herrmann]

Scott - exactly.  The only "safe" route is to the left, but that brings that other bunker into play.

A center-right side shot landing 5-10 feet short of the green will invariably roll back into the swale.

It's a heck of a par 4

[Eric Pevoto]

Scott,

You can definitely run shots in at #2, but the farther you get from the slot on the left, the tougher it becomes.  Trajectory, trajectory, trajectory!  

Conversely, the green is also deeper on the right, but you fight the angles to gain visibility from the right.  The green surface from the left side of the fairway is basically blind.  

Interesting hole.

[Tyler Kearns]

Evan,

   The Hell's Half Acre cross bunker/waste area at Pine Valley is excellent because it eliminates the dull monotonous second shots on long three-shot holes, especially if the first stroke is poor. It forces players to A; swallow their medicine, and lay-up short of the hazard with the consequence of reaching the green in 4 strokes or B; try to clear the hazard and gain a good angle for the approach shot with the risk of compounding their problems and never escaping Hell's Half Acre. In modern golf, it seems that poor drives on par fives simply prevent players from reaching the green in one less than regulation. Tillinghast's cross hazard at #7 Pine Valley is a great example of fine golf course architecture because it brought something new to the strategic palate of 'Golden Age' designers.

Tyler Kearns

[Patrick_Mucci]

Evan Green,

GCGC has a good number of them, with varying characteristics.

[T_MacWood]

Forest Creek has a par-5 with an excellent diagonal cross hazard...I don't recall the hole number.

Tillinghast's Sahara hazards are among the most distinctive.

[Gerry B]

Add #12 (The Punch Bowl) at Chicago Golf Club -great alternate cross bunkers alond the fairway - very effective - they come into play for short and long hitters alike.

#18 at Walton Heath Old has a deep cross bunker across the entire fairway about 40 yeards in front of the green.

#5 at Bethpage is pretty great as well

#13 - Baltimore Country Club's own version of Hell's Half Acre

#15 at Shoreacres - cross bunker  / Ditch combo.

[JSlonis]

Tyler,

Was Tillinghast responsible for Hell's Half Acre at Pine Valley?

[Gerry B]

Mr Slonis:

Rumour has it he was. I have a couple of books and read that he did visit the site early in its construction along with some of Philly's other golden age designers and it said he had input on #7. Makes sense based upon Baltimore,Baltusrol and eventually Bethpage.

[Dan Herrmann]

Pine Valley has got to be the "holy grail" of supurb cross-bunkering, espeically if you consider all those waste areas as bunkers.  (I know that most are not treated as bunkers, but it's pretty hazardous for the player should he visit).

[Joel_Stewart]

Peeble Beach's cross-bunkering is dear to my heart. Namely; #2, the sand here is better than the grass walls.
 #4, Aprox. 185 from tee, to carry, uphill, plays more especially when windy.
#13's isn't completly across but so perfectly placed as to cause havoc for those who flinch off the tee.
16 and 17 are also amazing specimens.

Well said Adam.  Pebble doesn't get this type of credit but it full of interesting architectural details.  

[david h. carroll]

Gerry B -- actually it's #14 at BCCFF and people tend to forget the wonderful set of cross bunkers at #6 (the Barn hole) which imho come into play much more frequently than the set of cross bunkers at 14

[TEPaul]

Jamie:

Tillinghast basically took credit (proudly) for two things at PV---Hell's half acre or basically #7 and also discovering or suggesting the green site on #13 after it had been sited for a few years (not built though) a 100 yards short and to the right of the present green.

#7 is interesting and there's an added story to it that never happened. Crump had every intention of creating basically a double dog-leg out of #7 using HHA but removing about half the fairway on the left on the second half and moving it over to the right. I believe he actually redid the green to some extent, to get ready to finish off this double dog-leg, orienting the green more to the right of the hole as you can see it basically is.

However, Crump died and it was never completed the way he wanted it. The very long double dogleg par 5, by the way, was very much Tillinghast's concept!  

[Phil_the_Author]

For those who have mentioned Bethpage, his two best cross bunkers have not been mentioned.

The bunker at 12 can be considered one even though it doesn't cross the fairway in it's entirety. It presents the ultimate driver/fairway wood option for the better player.

The bunker on #13 that is approximately 390 yards from the tee can be a tough carry for most players on their second shot. It restricts the fairway as well as takes advantage of a swale in the topography. Layup & you are faced with a third shot of nearly 180 yards. Try to carry and you are faced with hitting driver/fairway wood second shot into the 450 yard range to be safe. Shorter than that and the landing area is narrowed by rough. Longer than that and you now face the third great cross bunker about 40 yards short of the green. This can be a tough choice for the longer hitter who is faced with a go/no go decision on trying to reach it in two.

Bethpage Black with its combination of true cross bunkers and large half cross bunkers at corners that must be played as if they crossed the entire fairway, could well be the ultimate test of cross bunker play of any individual course. You are faced with decisions at #4, 5, 6, 7, 12 & 13.  

[Tyler Kearns]

Jamie,

     Tillinghast was one of the first people to walk the property with George Crump. In "The Course Beautiful" he notes how wonderful Pine Valley turned out, and that it has brought him a great deal of happiness that Crump incorporated two of his concepts into the final design, the 7th & 13th holes. In regards to the seventh hole, I do not know how involved Tillinghast was in the overall hole design? Certainly, the 'Hell's Half Acre' bunker, or 'Sahara' hole concept and its scale & distance from the tee are attributable to Tillie.

Tyler Kearns

[Gerry B]

David Carroll:

I stand corrected on the hole sequence -forgot about the extra par 4 before the short par 3 prior to  Hell's Half Acre. It is all coming back to me know. I agree that the  entire hole is one of the best - have only played there twice -great course  - one of my favorites. 2 great opening holes - especially # 2.

[JSlonis]

Tom/Tyler,

Thanks for the info.  It's funny that you mention #13 at Pine Valley in regard to Tillinghast.  I was reading the Pine Valley history on the Golf Assoc. of Phila. website earlier today and it said that Crump himself discovered the present site of the current 13th green.

It's amazing how many different accounts there are of what actually transpired during the construction of Pine Valley.  It is duly noted that Crump consulted many of the great architects of the time, but because of the outstanding success of the course, and the premature death of George Crump, were many of the consulting architects claims of credit overblown?  

The account in the PVGC history on the GAP website concerning holes 12-15:
"Crump’s revision of all four revolved about a better plan for the second shot on No. 13. Originally that hole was planned for a two-shotter straight out from the tee. One day Crump was on the top of the hill where one always hopes his drive on the 13th will stop. He looked off to his left and saw the redden-like peninsula formation of what is now the 13th green. Calling for a wooden club he hit innumerable balls toward that spot and finished with the remark, "There’s where the 13th green will be." Thus was born one of the world’s greatest two-shot holes.

Working back from that point, the 13th tee was placed so that the top of the hill could be reached by a good drive. Then the 12th hole had to be redesigned to a short dog-leg (drive and pitch-and-run) ending near the 13th tee. The 14th went from a two-shotter, as originally planned, ending south of the lake, to what is today the famous iron shot downhill over the water to the island. And the 15th tee was also placed on that island for the three-shotter straight uphill, rather than a "bite as much as you wanted" drive over the lake from the south."

It is later noted that Crump passed away before ever seeing these holes completed.

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