[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Sorry if you take umbrage at the way I talk about how I think you analyze the evidence (articles, letters, aerials, and basically the known record of this subject) on this thread. But that's the way I see it and don't mind saying it. I'd expect you to do the same.

This is a fairly unusual thread  particularly as we've all had access to a ton of contemporaneous material to read and analyze--most produced by the Tillinghast Society in one way or another and Rick and Phil with all those letters and other material. When the conclusions are as different as ours seems to be I see nothing wrong with bringing up the subject or how any of us analyze historical material and on this subject and thread I sure don't agree with how you're analyzing it.

An example, and without going back through all 14 pages of this thread, originally you seemed to base your conclusion about Tillinghast compromising his principles in 1935-6 on the fact that you claimed he recommended during his PGA tour that  basically 7,000 bunkers be removed from that first DH zone. Mike Cirba seems to have based most of his opinion on this subject on that very fact.

So, I'll ask you again if you can prove that fact and if not why did you say it to base your conclusions about Tillinghast on? That kind of thing gets right to the nub of how one does research and analyzes it, in my opinion.

[Rick Wolffe]

More proof!!!   He is back at Pinehurst.   The PGA most have been a front.  He was probably plotting with Dr. Know -- The Don.


Pinehurst, North Carolina
November 22nd 1936

President of the P.G.A.

Dear Sir:

During the annual tournament for the national P.G.A. championship, concluded here today, I have made numerous contacts with our members and have listed a number of requests for our course service.  In the morning I leave for Raleigh and then on to Newport News on Wednesday.  Friday will find me at Hungry Mother Park in the south-west of Virginia for the first consultation with the W.P.A. authorities.

Here follows a general schedule of my travels, which will guide you whenever the W.P.A. asks for our guidance.  You agreed with me that my activities with them would necessarily have to be regulated by my locations.

First week in December in Alabama
Third week in December in San Diego, California
To January tenth Los Angeles, California
To February fifteenth in northern California
Finish southern California and drive to Texas up to March seventh.
To March twentieth in Texas and Oklahoma
To end of March in Louisiana
From first to middle of April in Kentucky
To April 27th in eastern Missouri
To April 30th through Iowa and probably the work in that state will take me until the 7th
May 8th to June 8th Chicago and Illinois district, where requests are very heavy.

Of course I will keep you definitely advised from time to time to mailing addresses.

Very truly yours

A.W. Tillinghast

AWT

[Rick Wolffe]

Geeze...  Now they are plotting to soak the taxpayer too!!!


Marion, Virginia
November 28th 1936

President of the P.G.A.

Dear Sir:

I am about to take my departure for Birmingham, Alabama, spending the next night at Knoxville, Tennessee.  I have notified Charley Hall of the date of my arrival, by letter, as he requested me to do at Chicago.

I have had another conference with Mr. Burson and the anticipated program at Hungry Mother State Park is well defined.  I think it would be well for you to send a copy of my report of yesterday, to the department at Washington, as Mr. Burson will apply there for it.

My hotel bill here at Marion has been paid by Mr. Charles Lincoln (mentioned in my report of yesterday)  In this particular instance it is rather difficult for the P.G.A. to make an adequate charge to the W.P.A. for my mileage and expenses since I came away from Chicago for this inspection and conference, in as much as I carried on to Pinehurst and my visit here was delayed three days more by the request of Mr. Burson. It would seem to me to be fair for you to render an expense account to the department for 850 miles automobile mileage (the distance from Chicago and to Richmond) and for four days living expenses (for which the government allows you $5 each I believe, but of course actually they amount to more than that.)  This makes no account of my getting back to the regular route of my previous schedule (that is from Chicago to the south)  As I have said this time the accounting is a bit involved but there will be no trouble in the future.

Summing this up briefly, - I think it would be more than fair to the government in this instance to bill them for 850 for mileage @ .05 , - $42.50 with an additional $20 for four days’ living expense, - a total of $62.50

I will spend Sunday at Knoxville, drive to Birmingham on Monday, visit Charley Hall on Tuesday and Dan Gosse on Wednesday.  Thereafter I will pick up recorded requests in that section.

Very truly yours

A.W. Tillinghast

AWT

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh that low-down, despicable, rascally Tillie.  Doing his dirty deeds under the cover of the benevolent "Hungry Mothers".  

I've known some hungry mothers in my time, but the most I ever did with them was go to an all you can eat Calabash seafood restaurant in Myrtle Beach, followed by copious amounts of alcohol.  

But that darned Tilly on the other hand...I'm seeing this is deeper and more nefarious than I could have ever imagined.  

Rick...seriously...

When and where do your records indicate that he removed the majority of the "7,000" bunkers.

Tom Paul is right.  My interpretation of his writings at the time and reason for starting this voluminous thread in the first place was to understand what Tillie did and how his thinking about bunkering schemes evolved over time.  To ask it in the form of an inflammatory question only goes to prove that there is nothing like controversial press to get people's attention.  

Clearly, it seems he removed a lot of bunkers that affected the games of the hacker during his PGA work.  My belief is that bunkering in the duffer zone adds interest and challenge for the weaker hitter, so that's my admitted bias.  They used to abound in the earliest courses and over time, largely disappeared.

So, what I'm trying to understand is if Tillie was motivated by a belief that duffer's have enough problems without having to deal with bunkering in their driving zone (as some of his strongly worded writings seem to suggest), or if he removed many of these bunkers in an effort to save money during the Depression years (as he boasted in his writings).  

I originally thought it was probably some of both, but given the number of somewhat expensive changes he suggested to the clubs he consulted (as your letters indicate), I'm clearly starting to believe that he removed them purely on philosophical grounds.

While that clearly suggests he didn't "sell out", it does make him somewhat unique among Golden Age architects in advocating very modern thinking and design methodologies that other's like RTJ Sr. took to heart and expanded on.  

That is, it seems to me that Tillinghast's design philosophy evolved over time to favor the course built with artificial hazards placed in a way to almost solely disturb and test the game of the accomplished player, while offering the hack a way to get around largely unscathed by the architect's plottings.

Would you agree?  

[T_MacWood]

Mike
"It is this that is a part of the PGA doctrine, which has been assigned to me to preach and to make points as understandible as possible."

That is from his 'simplicity' article and there are other similar mentions in other articles during this period. IMO it was a job, a job I don't believe he would have taken unless under difficult circumstances, a job that he performed very well, to the best of his ability given the PGA goals. Not the high point for Tilly or golf architecture.

[TEPaul]

Good post MikeC and interesting and thoughtful musings!

You've said a number of times those bunkers in that zone are your personal bias and all with the thought that they both challenge and interest the duffer. But what if they don't? What do you feel about their plight then, and how does that effect your opinion of Tillinghast's philosophy?

I just started a thread about bunkers, an architect's principles and a membership's opinion that directly relates to this entire question and subject.

At some point there comes a time when this interesting but basically unavoidable dynamic must be faced and dealt with by all of us who belong to golf courses and have some responsibilty for dealing with them. If an analyst such as Tom MacWood wants to avoid or not consider this membership dynamic as it relates to architecture and it's preservation or demise then he will be analyzing in a unrealistic dreamworld of some kind of architectural purity, in my opinion.

I think there probably is some value to an analyst just completely staying out of this fray and dynamic but not much value and when he questions an architect's principles, when an architect such as Tillinghast, or any other architect really, can't stay out of that dynamic then I don't think that flies very well.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Here is an example. Analyzing what occured at Bel-Air...Tilly recommended a number of Duffer's Headaches be removed...if we believe Bel-Air was one George Thomas's greatest works and one of the great courses in the World....should we place the responsiblity upon Tilly for subjecting B-A to his DH formula or should most of the responsiblity be on the membership for accepting or declining his recommndation?

[ForkaB]

Rick

Many, many thanks for reproducing those Tillie letters.  Keep them coming!

It's refreshing to have some primary source material on this site.  What a pity that even these "facts' are not enough to quell the idle and often reckless (and even feckless)speculation of other contributors...........

[Mike_Cirba]

Rich;

Feckless?  C'mon, no need for swearing in here.  

[TEPaul]

"TE
Here is an example. Analyzing what occured at Bel-Air...Tilly recommended a number of Duffer's Headaches be removed...if we believe Bel-Air was one George Thomas's greatest works and one of the great courses in the World....should we place the responsiblity upon Tilly for subjecting B-A to his DH formula or should most of the responsiblity be on the membership for accepting or declining his recommndation?"

Tom MacW:

Very appropriate question!

First of all, who is “We”? Is it you and me and other contributors to Golfclubatlas today? If so what real right or reason do “we” have to place responsibility on anyone regarding the DH bunkering at Bel-Air? Did you play the course in the 1930s? Did I? Did you even see it? Do you know what the duffer membership of that club felt about their DH zone bunkering? Do you know how any of the membership felt about the financial situation of the club in the 1930s, a financial situation they’re responsible for?

I may not have felt this way a year or more ago but this entire subject always seems to remain a learning experience for all of us. I’m coming to believe that architecture survives or not for a reason. That reason is perhaps the ultimate tenet of all architecture and all good architects---does the architecture and all its particular features serve to give the golfers (the membership) of that club the type of challenge, excitement and pleasure he wants , enjoys and perhaps comes to respect or doesn’t it and why? Those are the things we need to determine on here and to understand and the better we get at determining that the more valuable our knowledge might be in the future for all golf architecture.

From some of Tillinghast’s letters it seems evident that he had a belief and a philosophy regarding what may serve that end of satisfying the duffer best. He also seemed to understand (again from his letters) that if a club or its membership was unwilling to take his advice that that was not the end of the world. Why was that?

Mike Cirba seems to have a different idea about what was best for the duffer than Tillinghast had. You may too. It’s probably not for Mike or you or me or even Tillinghast to decide in the end what was best for the duffer. It’s probably best for the duffer to decide that for himself. And it seems to me that’s probably what happened at Bel-Air and to some of George Thomas architecture despite the fact you may think it was some of the greatest in the world. It happened at my club that way too----twice actually. The more I get into this it seems generally speaking this is what always happens.

For all of us today who are intensely interested in all this the idea is probably to simply understand the reasons for it and refrain from placing blame on someone. This is one of the reasons I’m coming to understand that in the end and over time it’s the membership or something about it that makes the final determination of these things. I suppose the best architects understand this well and design, recommend, create and make decisions accordingly.

This is why I think a good analyst and certainly a good architect should thoroughly understand the dynamics of memberships of clubs, Tom, because if they don’t even in an historic context they’ll be missing  something about architecture that’s extremely important in the end.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Since you seemed slightly po-faced that your photos above apparently went over like a lead balloon let me say they didn't with me---wonderful stuff and very creative---I'm still laughing over those amazingly appropriate juxtapositions.

Have you been taking some new miracle humor pills lately or has this thread and subject just gotten to you? And I think Rich's "feckless" is appropriate about now too---it had a certain stutter-step alliteration to it in his post!

[T_MacWood]

TE
Do you normally associate the work of George Thomas (and Bel-Air in particular) with Duffer's Headaches?

[TEPaul]

"Oh that low-down, despicable, rascally Tillie.  Doing his dirty deeds under the cover of the benevolent "Hungry Mothers"."

Mike Cirba:

You've got that right. I think Tom MacWood should do some serious investigative research to determine if he thinks Tillinghast had compromised morals too during his PGA tour jouneys!

You know what Cuba Gooding said about the sanctity of single mothers (Hungry Mothers) in his question to Tom Cruise regarding what he'd done to Renee Zellwegger.

"Did you or did you not hijack the pootty?"  

[TEPaul]

"TE
Do you normally associate the work of George Thomas (and Bel-Air in particular) with Duffer's Headaches?"

Not normally. Do you?

 

[Mike_Cirba]

"Did you or did you not hijack the pootty?"

Tom;

Great line...just watched it again recently.  That wasn't a direct question to me, was it?  If so, I'm ignoring it.  

Glad to hear that you enjoyed the humor.  After 15 pages I became a little punchy and thought the tone was getting just a bit too heated.  Personally, I laugh each time I see Donald Ross as Yoda.    

To answer your question re: "You've said a number of times those bunkers in that zone are your personal bias and all with the thought that they both challenge and interest the duffer. But what if they don't? What do you feel about their plight then, and how does that effect your opinion of Tillinghast's philosophy?", I tried to answer that question on your related thread by recounting a personal story from Aronimink, where as you know, many bunkers that affect the poor player were restored by Ron Prichard.

To a duffer member complaining about a bunker in their "zone", I'd be tempted to say as an architect, "why should I put them where you can't hit the ball??"
 

[TEPaul]

"That wasn't a direct question to me, was it?  If so, I'm ignoring it."

MikeC:

No, it was a direct question to both you and Tom MacWood regarding Tillinghast's morals vis-a-vis Hungry Mothers (single mothers) and such during his PGA Tour particularly that stretch from Chicago to Pinehurst or Alabama or wherever he was headed. He seems to suggest in one of his letters Rick posted that he's not being reimbursed for all his expensed by the government or the PGA or WPA or whomever.

So I want to know what expenses he's talking about. Knowing Tillinghast at that time in his life and career when he was down and out, no longer the editor of Golf Illustrated, no real normal work in the depression, probably drinking and smoking too damn much and running himself into the gutter etc, etc---I want to know how much of a life-change was going on with him in this 1935-6 timeframe! I want to know what he was doing at night and such in his downtime when he wasn't condemning DH zone bunkering and destroying golf courses and compromising their architectural principles as well as his own.

Tom MacWood seems to think for some reason he was going through some life change which made him compromise his architectural principles or sell them out, although Tom's admitted the latter may be a bit strong.

So I want to know if he was after some pooty of hungry and single mothers too. If you or Tom could figure that out we may be able to establish a real pattern of behavior here that could put Tillinghast and all he did during this tour and later and the reasons why into real perspective and perhaps shed some light on RTJ's later design style and perhaps the evolution of architecture into the modern age. There could be a potential Mother lode (sorry about that--but perhaps even a Hungry Mother lode) of information here! How cool and interesting would that be?!!

I have this theory that Tillinghast architectural work and poduct can be broken down into two distinct and very idenifiable categories.

1. What he did in the mornings on site when he had a real hangover. Mostly this category is odd, makes no real sense, appears mean spirited and such.

2. What he did in the second half of the day after he'd had the chance to really get back into his flask and get creative, gutsy and adventurous with his architecture. Late Day Tillie architecture is generally markedly better than morning Tillie architecture. Matter of fact there's no comparison at all his late day architecture is so much better!

But we need to delve much deeper, I think. It's possible that Hungry Mother (single mother) pooty just might have an influence on the evolution of golf architecture in America that was heretofore unknown and even unimaginable!!

[Phil_the_Author]

An ineterestimg side point to the last few posts where "Hungry Mother" has been mentioned.

In 1936, Tillinghast made a detour during his tour going from Chicago to Marion, Virginia, where he laid out a potential course for Hungry Mother State Park!

This park was built with WPA money in 1932 and they decided to try & build a golf course there in 1936 with more WPA money. They were turned down by the government.

Some local officials are doing a search for me through local records to see if they can find the drawings that were done according to his sketches by a local civil engineer who was one of the prime movers in this failed project.

TEPaul, one other point. You wrote, "I have this theory that Tillinghast architectural work and poduct can be broken down into two distinct and very idenifiable categories.

1. What he did in the mornings on site when he had a real hangover. Mostly this category is odd, makes no real sense, appears mean spirited and such.

2. What he did in the second half of the day after he'd had the chance to really get back into his flask and get creative, gutsy and adventurous with his architecture. Late Day Tillie architecture is generally markedly better than morning Tillie architecture. Matter of fact there's no comparison at all his late day architecture is so much better!"

Though you may have meant this tongue-in-cheek or were serious, this side of Tillinghast's life & lifestyle has been wrongly reported and greatly misinterpreted.

I base this on interviews with ALL of his grandchildren, copies of medical records going back to the twenties, and a number of other witness stories. This will be a very surprising part of the biography taht I am doing, and if you'd like to know more, you can read it in November.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Those files (and pictures) are hidden deep in the vaults of The Tillnghast Society, marked as "EXTREMELYclassified", and Rick's military background generally ensures that they are adequately guarded around the clock by evil sharks with lasers attached to their heads.

However, a few years back, a good friend of mine risked life and limb to get a glimpse of those dark, hidden secret files at my request.  He was gone for some days, I had given up hope, but finally he came back to me and in his dying breath, drew a quick sketch of what he witnessed therein;

It's a little messy, with blood stains and such, but I trust it will serve the illustrative purpose of revealing this dark, debauched period of Tillinghast's life.  It seems that removing DH bunkers wasn't the only "alternative" Tillie was exploring in those years.

[Rick Wolffe]

Hmmm... check this one out..."Darth Tilly" is bringing more architects over to the "Dark Side." -- one A. Douglas Dodge and  R.J. Ross.  Mike C., thanks for the Intel, I always suspected that Yoda was the other Seth.
-----------------------------
Some quick interpretive thoughts.  IMO Tilly's consulting trip was a very Great Thing, which had been largely forgotten, but should be revived for what it meant to golf in America, as America came out of the Great Depression.

Does anyone see the great optimism in this sampling of letters from Tilly?  Almost all of these PGA pros, club presidents, greenkeepers, green chairman were greeting Tilly with great optimism.  They do not appear to be looking at ways to cut cost to save their golf courses from the NLE designation.  Quite to the contrary!  They were looking for ways to make their courses better, which means they would be investing resources, labor and capital to do so!

Tilly's tour may have been the great stimulus, to take the recovering optimism in the economy and jump start the golfcourse industry, which had slowed to a halt and declined in the early years of the great depression.


Mike C.
Tilly was out promoting the retention of local architects.  Wasn't this a good thing?
-------------------
 
Hartford, Conn. September 6-1935
(Note correction.  Report from Greenwich should have been dated September 4th instead of the 5th)

The President of the P.G.A.

Dear Sir:

The morning was given over to an inspection of the Avon Country Club course at Avon, Conn.  At the request of P.G.A. member George Siebert, who accompanied me together with his greenkeeper, r.B. Burnham; Russell C. Dodge, (Chairman of the Green Committee) J. . Henderson, and A.  Douglas Dodge, Architect of the course.  The latter was particularly glad to see me and said he was fully aware of the aid that the P.G.A. service was rendering local course architects.  He asked many questions and was keenly alive to the suggestions that I gave, covering most of the holes that are still unfinished and some inexpensive rearrangements of others.  Altogether this examination and service was very comprehensive and fortunately the rain ceased about noon.

From Avon I went to the Country Club, Farmington, Conn. at the request of P.G.A. member Arthur Reid.  Here again my examination embraced the entire course.  Besides Reid I was accompanied by greenkeeper Wm. Dubie and Harry Ives Bartholomew of the green committee.  Their chief problem concerned a new eighteenth hole, which I made into a one-shotter on account of previous blindless of the second shot, and the lengthening of the seventeenth with new green and teeing ground.  Many other points were covered on numerous holes.

Still another course was covered on this unusually active day, that of the Indian Hill Country Club at Newington, Conn, at the request of Bob Smith, president of this section of the P.G.A.  With him on our inspection was the president of the club, D.H. Cannon and the architect, who had planned a number of courses in this section and who is enthusiastic over the aid of our service.  He asked me to be not sparing in my criticism of his work and was quick to acknowledge the soundness of my recommendations that numerous pits be removed.  Another case of unnecessary penalties for poor shots of mediocre players.

Got back to the Bond Hotel just in time to change my clothes and get a bite to eat before the meeting of the member of this section, numerous greenkeepers and committeemen.  I was particularly glad to see, too, both of the local course architects already mentioned and the interest that they manifested was generally noted.  Altogether the meeting was successful and gratifying.  Robert Smith advises me that already he has six more requests for service in Connecticut that will have to be picked up later  (after the service in Philadelphia trip I imagine) and in addition I have two more courses to investigate tomorrow.

Very truly yours

A.W. Tillinghast

[Rick Wolffe]

Oh, more thing in regard to the hungry single mothers.

As most can see from this sampling of letters, Tilly's schedule was extremely demanding -- from the crack of dawn to after dusk.  Did this guy sleep?   Perhaps he squeezed in some quickies with all the hungry mothers, but he would have had to be really sneaky, as his wife, Lillian, accompanied him on his PGA travels.  
----------------
The grandfather clock in the grand hotel lobby chimed midnight.  In room 102, a typewriter could be heard clacking away from the hallway.  Old Tilly, turned to see his loving Lillian dozing on the recliner.  Tilly rose quietly, mumbled under his breath that he was going to get a new typewriter ribbon.  Five minutes later he was in roon 107 embracing the hootie wife of the Country Club president. She was a buxom one, who earlier that day eyed tillie from the eighteenth green as he was condeming bunkers out in front of the tee.

[TEPaul]

"In 1936, Tillinghast made a detour during his tour going from Chicago to Marion, Virginia, where he laid out a potential course for Hungry Mother State Park!"

Phil:

Hungry Mother is a State Park?? Damnit, I thought we might be onto something here. There's no single mother pooty in a state park that I know of. I hope Tom MacWood doesn't see this but who knows, even if he does he might make some case that stopping by a state park called Hungry Mother might be evidence that Tillinghast exhibited some compromised morals during that time period.

[TEPaul]

"Five minutes later he was in roon 107 embracing the hootie wife of the Country Club president. She was a buxom one, who earlier that day eyed tillie from the eighteenth green as he was condeming bunkers out in front of the tee."

What's the matter with you Rick? That doesn't make any sense--it's not logical. If Room #107 was the wife of the club president she couldn't very well be a Hungry Mother (single mother). Maybe your research is screwed up, maybe Room #107 that Tillie quickied was a Hungry Mother (single mother). It's possible that she too eyed him condemning bunkers earlier in the day and was attracted to him.

Generally single mothers (Hungry Mothers) are attracted to complete sons of bitches (which Tom MacWood might say Tillie was being during this timeframe). That's the primary reason they ARE Hungry Mothers (single mothers).

[T_MacWood]

TE
No, I agree with you, I don't normally associate Thomas with Duffer's Headaches.

Do you disagree with Tilly's assessment or characterization of "numerous" Duffer's Headaches at George Thomas's Bel-Air?

[TEPaul]

Tom:

I guess I'd have to go back and really look at what Tillinghast said about specific bunkers at Bel-Air in 1935 and also really look closely at Thomas's course then. I've never been there and I've never done that with aerials or photos or whatnot. Have you really done both?

All I know is it's probably a lot easier to compromise your principles and sell your soul in LA than it is in Boston or Philly, or Chicago or most any other town in America. There's just a lot more available pooty in LA to steer you down the wrong path and there always has been! It's just much easier to go wrong in LA than anywhere else in America IMO. I think the record might show that when poor Tillie finally hit LA he was at the end of his line. His life was basically over and done with! After that and after he'd sold his last stick of furniture out there they had to take him back to Ohio and deposit him in a little room in his daughter's house where he finally slipped into oblivion and died!

[T_MacWood]

TE
"I made numerous recommendations to eliminate misplaced and unnecessary (D.H.) pits and in some few instances the introduction of others, placed out at a proper range."

Bunkers that are meant solely to punish the duffer...I don't think so. Yes I have studied aerials of Bel-Air and to characterize any of those bunkers as DH's is unfortunate.

Hungry Mother Park was just the tip of the iceberg. At the same time Tilly was dispatched to HMP, the PGA also announced they would be developing 500 to 600 new golf courses with the help of the Federal Goverment...with Tilly as the point man.  

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