News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


JakaB

Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« on: March 10, 2004, 10:18:31 AM »
JD mentioned that Baltimore C.C. was poised for a major upset on the 65 thread...why doesn't it get any props on GCA...I don't know a damn thing about it...and I just about don't know a damn thing about everything...so what is up with the place.

THuckaby2

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2004, 10:22:01 AM »
They call the course "Five Farms"... and good lord, it is one hell of a great golf course.  Tillinghast... old, venerable... fun.. long.. tough... I'm working off memory from when I played it several years ago, and all I remember is walking off there going "holy shit, that was great."

I have that as a first round upset for sure... 2nd round depends on opponent....

I don't think it gets much discussion or props because not many people have played there, that's all.  I recall Tommy being flabbergasted when I told him I did... it's very private and I guess very tough to access.  Hell, a guy invited me to play at a cocktail party at a convention I was at... it pays to be lucky, friendly, and help people win scrambles earlier in the day.   ;)

TH

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2004, 10:39:16 AM »
Tom Huckaby:

I share your enthusiasm for Baltimore CC. There is a nice variety of holes. It is a place one could play many times without ever getting bored.

I'd like to make it back there some day.

Tim
Tim Weiman

JDoyle

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2004, 10:44:02 AM »
Barney,

I think BCC East is one of the most underated course I have ever played.  It is a great piece of rolling land with interesting, strategic and memorable holes.  And outside of Oakmont it has the fastest greens I have ever seen.

I played there this past summer and clearly the club is interested in raising it's national reputation and hosting some important events.  They have renovated the facilities and are busy getting in a hosting posture.

Holes like 6 (barn hole), 8, 9 (super tough green), 10 (garden hole) and 15 are excellent.  The 18th is a little weak compared with the holes mentioned.

I would think that BCC would be a GCA favorite but for some reason it remains an undebated gem.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2004, 10:46:55 AM »
As a member of Five Farms, thank you to all for the good words. It is very private and the guest play restrictions are tough, but if I can fit it in I would be glad to host some GCAers when they are in town.

We have eliminated quite a few trees and some of the other changes are awesome too. It is a joy to play everyday for sure!
Mr Hurricane

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2004, 10:52:53 AM »
Many courses here get mentions and get talked about, but if you're not looking out for it, you miss it.  I notice when Five Farms gets mentioned (many times in the past 2 3/4 years), since my parents and their families are from Baltimore and I've walked the course (1988 U.S. Women's Open).

It usually gets mentioned whenever Tillie's best work gets mentioned or when Sahara bunkers get mentioned, among others.  It was an AOTD, too.  When compared to Tillie's NYC area stuff or SFGC, certainly it's not nearly as talked about.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2004, 10:54:44 AM »
and I just about don't know a damn thing about everything...so what is up with the place.

JakassaB,
Your wrong!

You THINK you don't know a damn thing about everything and are out to prove it that you thought about it.  

And last time anyone mentioned anything about Five Farms, it was nothing but the positive which, you are anything but.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2004, 11:11:30 AM »
I recall dave Pelz on a Golf Channell show describing some new discovery he made in his putting research. I believe he tested it at Baltimore because he said they had the finest and truest quality putting surfaces anywhere.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2004, 11:51:01 AM »
Jaka B,

My take is that it had a weak finish with # 17 and # 18, and that was what prevented it from getting ample respect.

I believe the club has addressed those two holes and made the effort to "beef up" the finish.

Perhaps, if the 1st and 2nd holes were # 17 and # 18 it would be deemed to be world class.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2004, 11:54:11 AM »
Pat Mucci:

I agree with you about the last couple holes at BCC, but wow, what goes before is pretty darn nice, IMO.

Tim
Tim Weiman

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2004, 12:29:39 PM »
Patrick -

I never thought about it that way, but you are right that would be an awesome finish.
Mr Hurricane

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2004, 12:37:48 PM »
Tim Weiman,

No question about it.

But this is why a late season loss hurts teams in the BCS poll, at least before Oklahoma this year, but the Sugar Bowl and LSU corrected that mistake.

If BCC Five Farms has measurably enhanced # 17 and # 18,
I would think it would help them in the ratings.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2004, 12:49:57 PM »
#17 has a new teeing area that is 1000% better than the tiny little area before and is 10 yards longer. #18 is 20 yards longer with the new tee back and down to the right. Most of the trees were removed from the right and the right bunker pushed back making it more difficult to carry the bunker. So I would say the improvements are measurably better.
Mr Hurricane

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2004, 01:05:05 PM »
Mr Hurricane,

I'm planning on playing the course again this summer and anxious to see the changes.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2004, 01:07:28 PM »
Patrick -

Please let me know when you will be there as I would like to introduce myself. Are you playing with DCarroll?
Mr Hurricane

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2004, 01:13:00 PM »
Mr Hurricane,

No, I'm playing with a member and his brother in law
But perhaps you and DCarroll might be able to join us.
I'll let you know when we schedule a date, which will probably be in the summer or late summer.

dfrey

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2004, 02:32:43 PM »
I think the premise of this post is wrong.  BCC gets plenty of respect.  It is probably the best course/club in the Balt/DC area.  It is the club I would want to be a member of in the area.  I have enjoyed every round I have played there......it is a very special place.

GeoffreyC

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2004, 03:35:33 PM »
John

I have no idea why you would think that Five Farms gets no respect.  It is a fixture of the top 40 Classic courses on the GW list.  It is thought of as one of Tillinghast's best works and I think the Womens US Open held there was one of the factors that "rediscovered" Tillinghast's genius. I belive that Jim McCay (ABC Wide World of Sports) did the telecast and is  a member.

I played the course last summer and enjoyed it very much. I can't think of a Tillinghast course with TWO better par fives. It has a good balance of short par 4's and longer ones with good use of the streams and water on the property.

The work done by Keith Foster (?) I believe is quite good but perhaps not quite as stunning as Fenway's complete makeover. Perhaps the fact that Five Farms already had recognition, respect and a place in the traditions and history of Tillinghast's body of work is why its talked about less then we might have had it required and received the makeover and new appreciation of a Fenway.

Its a teriffic course that I'd love to revisit.

JakaB

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2004, 03:52:57 PM »
This is a fun thread that I am glad I started because I really had no memory of Baltimore C.C. being discussed on this site.  I may have heard of Five Farms but that is easy to say after reading what I have in the last two days....I equate respect of GCA with good press on GCA...and I am sure now that we all know a member...to quote Sammy Davis Jr...Here comes da Judge.   I think we will be hearing alot about Baltimore in the near future and that can only be a good thing....


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2004, 07:15:43 PM »
Geoff Childs,

I too, liked the golf course a great deal, but the finish left me flat for a AWT golf course, and I think that is why it doesn't get more National recognition.

Hopefully the improvements have addressed my perception.

DTaylor18

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2004, 07:27:46 PM »
Pat, i will be interested to see what you think of the changes.  It's interesting, in thinking about your comments, is this not similar to Somerset Hills?  Both are considered very highly by people that have played them, yet sometimes don't get the same national attention.  I have played both and enjoyed both tremendously, yet neither have great finishing holes, although I think Baltimore's 17th is good.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2004, 10:28:58 PM »
Dan Taylor,

I would agree with your assessment of the similarities, although I think BCCFF's is a superior golf course.
SHCC is sporty, but I think its par 5's are very weak, although I do like #9.

I would like to see SHCC shift the nines as I think #7, # 8 and
#9 would make a better finishing stretch.  I had understood that SHCC had experimented with this in the past, but reverted back to the current finish.  I'd love to know the history of those changes.

I'm anxious to see BCCFF this summer.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2004, 10:29:19 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

david h. carroll

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2004, 09:50:04 AM »
Sorry to be a late comer to his thread, but thankfully, Mr. Hurricane notified me of Barney's words....I've played here for almost 20 years and have seen the course go through a lot of growth/renaissance.  It should be noted, however, that after the 1988 Women's Open, Brian Silva came in to re-spec the greens and bunkers--over time the putting surfaces had shrunk greatly and many of the green side bunkers were no longer in play.  Before the work was done, BCCFF had all poa greens and they would get bumpy and burn out every summer.  Silva replaced the poa with a grass that at the time was fairly advanced and had just been put in at Saucon. Here's an email I sent to Mucci last year about BCCFF and the work Keith Foster did last year.   From a strategic standpoint, 18 is a much better hole as the long hitter can try to take advantage of an angle over bunkers up the right side and leave 100yds in or possible trouble:


Patrick—thanks for the good interest and questions.  Keith Foster worked very well with our super over the course of last winter.  Project took a bit longer than expected due to harsh winter and spring.  As to current alterations, let me do a hole by hole for you with a note also towards future alterations still under consideration:



#1        added new back tee (15-20yds) and leveled other tees, and for the future, the right fairway bunker may be pushed 10yds up towards the green—it’s a beast now as the prevailing wind is usually in your face

#2        no alterations—really doesn’t need any with all that tight OB left

#3        a back tee was added three years ago, green has been “rehinged” so that rear and front are less severe, and there is future discussion of moving back tee towards the left (nearer the road) to create a cape sort of effect and to bring the bunker into play as a target

#4        no alterations

#5        leveled back tee, moved target bunker up the fairway 15 yds so that carry from back tee is now 265 and moved left fairway bunkers up and in

#6        no alterations

#7        added back tee (20yds) so that most must now hit driver to get down to the vale….it’s a much tougher hole

#8        don’t know if you remember, but originally there was a bunker low and right of the fairway—returned it, but pushed it way up the right side about 75 yds from the green…a nasty spot for sure as it is quite deep and has made for much more of a risk reward on the sometimes reachable shortie.

#9        replaced back tee by moving it up the slope 10 yds, but also elevated it so that there is no real change in distance, “rehinged” green so that it’s less severe and to allow for four days of pin placements—if you recall, the only pins previously were left front, middle and back and dead center—really no good right side pin

#10      IS NOW LONGER THAN #11!!...added back tee (+45 yds!!!—I continue to ba amazed at the difference this makes here!!)  Now everyone has to hit driver, whereas some of us were getting away with 3 iron, wedge in previous years….I always loved the hole before and some have said that Tillie said it was his most loved hole with the Japanese garden influence, etc….BUT NOW IT IS TOUGH—shorter hitters playing it back are now coming into that green with 5 irons!!!

#11      no changes, but future consideration of a new back tee

#12      front right and back of green “rehinged” due to lack of pin placements and left fairway bunkers pinched in and moved up

#13      no changes but consideration of back tee to make it play 185

#14      left fairway bunker pushed in towards fairway 5 yds and up the fairway towards green 15 yds

#15      left bunker complex (b/w 15 and 16) moved up fairway 15 yds and in about 10—it’s now the target for the long hitter (my target!!) with a cut

#16      back tee added (+15)—doesn’t change much as ball still rolls down the hill—future discussion of restoring the flat (aka Roman’s Flat) at the bottom to a fuller size by removing that little red tree and cutting down the rough

#17      completely new tee complex, back tee now at 185yds and more the right by about 15yds…a bigger shot, but still very fair and a better view

#18      new back tee to the right and low, two new fairway bunkers right…the first of the two is a good target and the second one is a good 265 carry—they are where the trees on the right used to be—a much tougher finishing hole than the old 18, but the decent player should still have no more than 160 from the fairway, home….a ton of players, however are finding themselves in the deep new bunkers and can’t pull off the shot.





After some trouble with the new greens due to rain, everything has been open since about June 1…members love it and you couldn’t be more correct about Caves!!!!


DalyFan

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2004, 11:23:15 AM »
In response to:

"I think BCC East is one of the most underated course I have ever played.  It is a great piece of rolling land with interesting, strategic and memorable holes.  And outside of Oakmont it has the fastest greens I have ever seen."

BCC East is an excellent golf course, but fastest greens outside of Oakmont?  You need to get out more.

I agree that the 18th is a little weak...17th is a great par 3 though.  Changing the finishing holes to #s 1 and 2 would be a mistake.  The OB would be a killer for a finishing hole.  It would be way too penal as the 18th.  You will not find two better Par 5s on a Par 70 course anywhere.  

JDoyle

Re:Why Does Baltimore C.C. Get No Respect...
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2004, 11:26:18 AM »
DalyFan,

Where are the fastest greens you have played?

When was the last time you played BCC?

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back