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Forrest Richardson

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Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2004, 11:07:42 AM »
I agree, good sculpting with bad or bland grass can still result in a very decent bunker. The golf architect leaves behind many touches, those which endure are the physical sculpting — not to mention the routing.

Even a quick journey thorugh the thousands of threads on this site will demonstrate how fragile the "decorative" side of course design can be. It is important — especially to document as the great pictures above — but how quickly these touches can fade away when new owners, greenkeepers and policies set into place.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2004, 01:11:30 PM »
Considering many of you don't get "Winnipeg news", I'll report here that there's a really interesting opportunity at St. Charles CC, there.

Mike DeVries is in the process of restoring 9-holes by Mackenzie, 9-holes by Ross, and then hopefully next, redoing the club's unheralded third nine (perhaps to be the DeVries nine someday!).

The idea is to distinguish the Mackenzie and Ross nines with features, strategies and aesthetics typical of each's designer, based on historic photos and original plans.

What an interesting and unique golfing experience St. Charles will present if the club finds the will and the cash to allow Mike to carry this restorative-based project through, in its entirety.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2004, 01:12:49 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2004, 01:34:39 PM »
I spoke to a group in Winnipeg several years ago and learned that "It can be really nice during the summer...", which I later learned occurs generally between July 20th and July 23rd until around 3:00pm! (When I was there it was -40 degrees...coldest I've ever been!)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2004, 01:48:11 PM »
C'mon Forrest... you should like an American from Arizona!

It's true, they play golf in Manitoba  ;)
jeffmingay.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2004, 02:00:43 PM »
Here's the incident I recall most fondly:

I arrive at the airport after ice and snow delays in Minneapolis. It's around 11:30pm. The lady who picked me up had been waiting at the airport for 3 hours because she "wanted to stay warm". When we walked out to the car all of the doors were sealed shut with ice. We managed to pry open the rear passenger's side door. We both climbed in from there, luggage and all.

Yes, I'm originally a California kid and now am warm blooded with a hint of Barry Goldwater mixed in.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2004, 03:08:58 PM »
Forrest,

If you hadn't named the city in advance, I would have guessed your airport story happened in Winnipeg  ;D
jeffmingay.com

Mike_DeVries

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Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2004, 08:34:50 PM »
I had heard of some possible changes on #9 though.  Any truth to this?

My second time around, we played the left tees on #9 and my ball just trickled off the edge of the green into the right bunker.  Unfortunately, the ball got stuck half way down on a vertical face because it seemed small bushes were planted to try to hold the face together.  It's a treacherous bunker if you get in it, but that was an very unfortunate roll to end up where I did.

Kfry,

There is no plan to change the hole, at least that I know of.  Some of the better players complain that it is not "fair" but there are many options for recovery shots and there are times like yours when an unfortunate "rub of the green" gives you a very difficult lie.  BTW, the small juniper that you came in contact with was not planted to hold the face together, but as a part of the native rough composition -- we'll see how they survive after getting beat up by unlucky golfers!

One example of why I think the hole is fair.  In a foursome with two 10-handicaps, a 12, and a 24 -- with the pin on the far right peninsula and playing from the west (left) tees -- the only player to hit that portion of the green and hold the putting surface was the 24-handicap!!!!  The rest of us hit ok shots, but Paul really made a great play -- and then he missed the birdie putt!    :'(

Mike

Joe Hancock

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Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2004, 08:43:18 PM »
Mike,

It would be interesting to hear what those better golfers definition of fair is. If it means that they hit their conventional good shot, but couldn't get it near the pin, then #9 is the type of hole to ellicite that response. To a creative shotmaker (not me, btw!), you wouldn't hear about fair or unfair.

Joe

P.S. How's the knee recovering?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tyler Kearns

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Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2004, 10:16:39 PM »
Jeff,

    The work being done at St. Charles CC will not be a true restoration. The club made some serious alterations to the golf course a few years ago, most notably to the Mackenzie nine. I do not think the club is even considering spending more money to undo what was done to prepare the course for the Senior Tour's Canadian Open. In an effort to lengthen the golf course, a new back tee on #7 was built atop of the old 3rd green, a nice little sub 300-yd par 4. Sadly, the Senior Tour officials didn't feel like using that back tee during the tournament, and a good hole was replaced by a mediocre one (maybe it'll grow on me!). Jack Nicklaus was quite critical of the above decision. Further changes were made to the green complex at #5. From the Mackenzie plan & still photograph in Doak's biography on Mackenzie, there does appear to still be quite a bit of the original course intact. More recently, Mike DeVries has been enlarging the putting surfaces on #1 & #2 on the Mackenzie nine, creating some very exciting new pin positions. I was told the old edges were determined by taking plugs out of the existing green surrounds. However, seeing as the greens were originally push-up complexes, I'm a little unclear as to what was found in the soil to differentiate between green surface & surrounds (no greens mix like modern day USGA greens).
       The Ross nine also received substantial changes in the process of wooing the Senior Tour. Thankfully, a great number of trees were removed from the #2 hole, however the green was enlarged substantially. I believe the original green is intact, and not sure if the new area is more fitting of Ross' original design. The same thing occured at both the #6 & #7 green complexes. Further, the old short par 4 #8 was removed from the routing by a longer hole to the immediate west of the fairway. Sadly, last time around the course, the old green complex was being stripped for sod and the bunkers were unkempt and fading into extinction. It is not entirely clear to me how intact the Ross nine was before the changes, for there had been work done in the past.
     The club has also engaged in a tree clearing plan in recent years to help encourage the strategic options that once existed on many holes, and the result looks great!
     It is encouraging to see that Mike DeVries is restoring the look of the bunkering, to give each nine the destinctive appearance of their original architecture. It is a shame that a true restoration will not take place!!

Tyler Kearns

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker thread #2... Kingsley Club, photos included
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2004, 09:08:48 AM »
Mike DeVries,

On my last visit, someone had mentioned a possible change on #9.  Frankly, I love the hole.  Is it hard?  You bet.  Can it be "unfair?"  I guess that depends on who you ask and where their shot ends up!  Local knowledge helps a bunch by knowing which spots to REALLY avoid.

I do believe the juniper in the bunker face makes an unfortunate roll even more unfortunate by producing an unplayable lie only a few yards from where the pin might be.

I've played from both sets of tees and both produce their own unique challenge.  Kingsley is phenominal.  I'm glad to see it get the recognition it deserves.  My only wish is I could play the course more often!!

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