[Steve_ Shaffer]

Will Papago(William F. Bell) be the next highly rated muni to undergo an extensive restoration/renovation as was done at Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines South and Harding Park? Along this line, I understand that the proposal for work on Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia has been approved by the Fairmount Park Commisssion and the course will be closed in 2005 for the work to be done by Norman Design. I understand Forrest Richardson is involved in Papago
Here is Bill Huffman's article on Papago in today's East Valley Tribune:
www.aztrib.com/index.php?sty=18155

[Jeff Fortson]

This is a fabulous municipal course.  If a restoration is indeed going to happen, I hope the state does so carefully.  This is a rarely talked about gem in Arizona and deserves to be on the upper tier of courses in the Phoenix area.


Jeff F.

[Forrest Richardson]

Our Former Mayor, John Driggs, is leading a campaign to return Papago to its glory: 1960s through 1970s. That's when I played there most as a youngster and early golf enthusiast.

Among the directions being discussed is a return of the low-flow lagoons which ran across some fairways; tree removal to return adjacent desert areas to their strategy relationship to the play of holes (now the tree lined fairways offer only one option: Straight or else!); and bunker restoration. Greens will also have to be re-contoured in many instanced as they have been heavily topdressed over the years and some movement has been lost.

Jack Snyder, my mentor, was the on-site construction man for Bell, so we have plans and a lot of insight into what was meant there. Good news: Most of everything is still there and at our disposal — not much has been totally lost.

[Mark_Fine]

Unfortunately Norman apparently doesn't feel there is much worth restoring at Cobbs Creek.  I have not yet seen the course so I can't offer my opinion on that.  

[Forrest Richardson]

Bill — We really don't have anything which would show what's there, or what might happen. This project is a ways off until funds are raised and there is some formal entity undertaking the work. Next time I'm out there I'll grab some images to post.

Safe to say that the intent will be to bring bunkers back to their original depth and shapes, possibly shifting a few; bring desert areas back into play by removing trees which have funneled the shots; and restore lagoons and "creeks". We also have talked about restoring the desert to remove trash and debris — the City has actually dumped palm branches and stuff throughout the course in places. Some tees will be added.

Regarding the lagoons/creeks, my fond memories were the continual trickle of water across Nos. 6, 7, 13, 14, and 15 — all of this has been piped to "speed up play". One approach we discussed was shifting the crossings from their original pathways to more distant (from the tee) spots where the water would play havoc more with the long hitter than the average, daily player. This would offer some heroic decision-making from the tee that is not there so much without the water.

I've always thought that the par-5s needed work. No. 1 is a great opener — OK. But, you're right. No. 10 is weak as it duplicates No. 1 — No. 10 needs a stronger hazard at the green and then an open area left of the green. If you look closely you can see where trees have encroached the option to play well left and come in from the far outside. No. 9 has the blind lake from the tee — it's a problematic hole — No. 15 needs hazards brought into play, possible with some desert areas crossing the fairway.

All this is preliminary thinking. Until we dive into the work there is only enthusiasm

[Tommy_Naccarato]

"early golf enthusiast."

Forrest, I knew you were old, but I didn't know you were that old!

[ian]

Looks old to me Tommy.

[Forrest Richardson]

Thank you, Ian. I've always wanted to delete the oddly placed golfer on top of the bump. The bump, by the way, is a pile of rocks to protect the fairway from torrential floods.

[Bill_McBride]

Interesting that #1 and #10 on this Bell design are parallel par 5's of similar characteristics.  We played Tucson CC in late January, another Bell course, and it was the same thing.  #1 and #10 were both straight, both the same length, even similar bunkering.  #10 maybe a bit more dogleg right with a mound in play, but not much difference.  That is a weakness in my opinion.  What could be done at Papago to make a difference?

[Forrest Richardson]

Tommy N. will tell you that Mrs. Bell, Sr. did a lot of the routing for Mr. Bell, Sr. and, later, Bell, Jr.  Blame her!

As for Papago, No. 1 is fine as is. While No. 10 needs a stronger guard at the green. Also, at No. the fairway needs to involve the desert at right which has all but been cleared and lost.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kind of funny...I recently visited Phoenix and my future brothers in law mentioned that they mostly play at a muni called Papago.  Little did I know there'd be a thread on GCA about it two weeks later.

Future visits will definitely include a trip to Papago.  

[DMoriarty]

Tommy N. will tell you that Mrs. Bell, Sr. did a lot of the routing for Mr. Bell, Sr. and, later, Bell, Jr.  Blame her!

Forrest, you've said this before, and I have heard the same said about Jr.  But I have never heard or read it said about Sr, and doubt it is true, at least for Bell Sr's. pre-War courses.   My guess is that he didnt do much at all with the post war stuff . . .

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,

Once in a discussion with Bill McCauley, the former owner of Los Coyotes CC in Buena Park, a former LPGA tournament site,  he told me when he bought the course in 1970, Billy Bell Jr. had contacted him about making some changes to the course that he felt were neccessary for attracting new members.

When meeting to discuss the changes, Bell entered into McCauley's office with this older lady where BB Jr. introduced her as his Mother. They sat down at his desk, and Bell opened up a roll of plans he brought with him. Before he knew it, the older lady started to point out certain areas of the course that they were talking about as far as changes which struck Mr. McCauley quite odd, and BB Jr. noticing this said, "You know, my mom does most of all of my routings and also did them for my Dad!"

Mr. MacCauley told me that she really knew what she was talking about, and he enjoyed the entire meeting so much that he consulted BB Jr. for all of th future needs until the day he died, which, opened the door for real greatness--Ted Robinson.

And that my friends is the REST of the STORY...........












Good Day!

[Sr Fortson]

I, too, hope that Papago is restored to its original design.  I started playing there the first week it opened in 1963 as a high school golfer.  Most people don't know that the first year or two the greens were bent.  They had to go to bermuda because the bent couldn't take the number of rounds being played and the city of Phoenix has never been the best at upkeep on their munies.  #'s 1 and 10 are dogleg right par 5's, but I feel are really quite different.  #1 from the back is over a lake, down a hill, and then up to an elevated green with a severe dropoff to the right.  #10 is much easier, more flat and much more reachable.  When I was involved with the men's club throughout the 70's we had over a 100 players with handicaps of 5 or less, which really speaks to how popular the track was back then to the better players. I haven't played there in about 10-12 years but heard that it had really gone to hell condition-wise.

[yogi_barry]

Papago is a special place...  I just hope they can do the renovations and still make it affordable for the "average joe".  

[DMoriarty]

David,

Once in a discussion with Bill McCauley, the former owner of Los Coyotes CC in Buena Park, a former LPGA tournament site,  he told me when he bought the course in 1970, Billy Bell Jr. had contacted him about making some changes to the course that he felt were neccessary for attracting new members.

When meeting to discuss the changes, Bell entered into McCauley's office with this older lady where BB Jr. introduced her as his Mother. They sat down at his desk, and Bell opened up a roll of plans he brought with him. Before he knew it, the older lady started to point out certain areas of the course that they were talking about as far as changes which struck Mr. McCauley quite odd, and BB Jr. noticing this said, "You know, my mom does most of all of my routings and also did them for my Dad!"

Mr. MacCauley told me that she really knew what she was talking about, and he enjoyed the entire meeting so much that he consulted BB Jr. for all of th future needs until the day he died, which, opened the door for real greatness--Ted Robinson.

Tommy, I am inclined to take this with a grain of salt, especially as it pertains to Bell Sr.  With all their supposed "joint works"  I have to wonder whether Bell Jr. was living on his father's laurels, and saying that his father did it too would be consistent with this theory.  Given his sister's low view of his architectural knowledge, it is not hard to understand why a family member might try to help Little Bil--   Especially if the father was not able to help, except for lending his name.  

Any other source confirm that the loving Mrs. Bell routed for her husband.  Could it be that Bell Jr. was referring to their many joint works?  

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