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Mark_Fine

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« on: June 26, 2001, 10:56:00 AM »
Most people on this site seem to have a problem with multiple tees and "long" golf courses.  I do as well "to some extent".  My personal concerns are higher maintenance costs, higher green fees, and longer rounds.  However, I don't believe strategy or interest has to be compromised just because a course is long.  Length is relative!  A 490 yard par four might be a brute for some of us but it might be just a 2I/7I for Tiger or some of the other longer hitters on tour.  At 340 yards, the same hole might play 2I/7I for the average golfer just like it does for the pros.  It's quite possible the long hitter and the average golfer might view the hole the exact same way strategy wise and interest wise.  Why wouldn't they, they're both hitting the same clubs off the tee and into the green?  

I think we base too much judgement on our own games.  Furthermore, we probably play the wrong tees too often and judge the course on the basis of how we played it from those tees.

Most of us I hope would agree that Merion and Pine Valley are two great examples of extremely "strategic" golf courses.  They are two of the best ever built.  But both these courses today are reduced to chip and putt by the best players in the game today.  So how are we going to challenge the better players without adding length or doing something to alter the equipment?  Not too many modern courses are going to be built that will rival Merion and PV strategy wise especially at 6400 and 6600 yards.  What is an architect to do if part of his charter is to design an interesting and demanding test for all levels of players?  


Dan King

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2001, 11:25:00 AM »
The secret to creating challenging golf courses for all levels is to ignore the extremes.

On one end you have the very best golfers in the world. Golfers who can hit a ball designed to go no further than 280 yards, well over 300. The best golfers can reduce a 490-yard hole to a 2-iron, pitching wedge. At the other end of the extreme is the rank beginner, given a 490-yard hole, the beginner might take 20-30 shots to reach the green.

If you emphasize building for either of these extremes you'll develop poor golf courses that are of little interest or strategy to the majority of golfers.

Developers and architects have been worried about the best golfers in the world. Forget them. Let the PGA Tour®, NCAA®, European Tour®, USGA® etc.. worry about them. They'll either figure out a way to reduce the distance of the ball, build their own courses, or play virtual golf to continue to challenge their players. But for courses to be modified or built to appeal to such a smaller number of golfers is ludicrous.

Marketers have figured out that golfers believe if the best players in the world are challenged by a golf course we will also have the same challenge. But nobody says we have to remain gullible.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left."
--Oscar Levant

 

JamieS

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2001, 11:52:00 AM »
Interesting topic. The two classic courses you mentioned are my absolute favorites. I think the easiest way for these classic courses to remain a challenge lies in the proper setup and conditioning of the course.
Earlier this year I had the opportunity to play with Danny Green in the 2nd round of a tourney at Merion...he won the tourney with a 54 hole total of +16. The conditions definitely dictated the entire tournament, the rough was mild by Merion standards but the rest of the course was hard and fast. A wedge shot had to be struck properly and land in the right area or it didn't stay on the green. Most clubs couldn't or wouldn't set their courses up like this for everyday play, people would #%*$% all day long.
I think today that courses can be built that aren't 7400 from the tips and still test the best and worst players.  Look at Southern Hills, fairly short by modern Open standards, but par was a great score.
Architects today seem handcuffed by owner groups and memberships that want "championship tests, "signature" holes, and the "Augusta Look" every day of the year. A green course does not always make a great course.
Fortunately...there are a few architects that are taking a different approach and harkening back to a better and more simple era for ideas and inspiration.

Mark_Fine

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2001, 11:53:00 AM »
Dan,
I tend to agree with you, however, why not design your course for the masses "as you suggest", and just use additional tees to stretch the course out for the times when length is needed.  Isn't that what they do in the U.K.?  The "medal" tees are generally only used for the highest level competitions!

Part of my arguement is that strategy and interest is not necessarily lost with added length!
Mark  


John_Conley

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2001, 12:01:00 PM »
Another chance to state my thesis:

(Dan is correct in that using Tiger's stroke sequence is harmful when most club champions - best guy out of 300 avid golfers - can't identify with it.)

People would play more, play in less time, and enjoy it more if they shot lower scores and paid less money to do it.

Designing holes with multiple tees that range from 7363 to 5518 (actual numbers from the card in front of me) makes it difficult to determine where to put hazards in play.  On AVERAGE, these tees (back to front) are over 100 yards apart.  Where would you put a cross hazard in play on a par 4?  There is no good answer, so it gets pushed to the perimeter and golf becomes linear.

An architect can:
 make a short par 3 with a small green
 make everyone play a 470 yard hole
 add one short par 4 per side and use other means to challenge players
 try a par other than 72
 place cavernous bunkering on a hole 220 to 260 yards from the tee with room to play around if desired

You can go on and on describing ways to challenge players of all levels without stretching the course for the sake of stretching it.

Actual yardages between BLACK (7363) and WHITE (6239) tee at this course on some holes.  White tee player is asked to play holes of enough variety in length, but the  Black tee player isn't.

Par 3s:
 209 to 158
 217 to 182
 231 to 208
 145 to 118

Par 4s:
 Black tee has only three under 423 (397, 369, and 344)
 White tee has only one over 407 (437)

Par 5s:
 From white tee, 481 463 509 and 497.  A person who hits the ball 200 yards can navigate a par 5 longer than 509 once in their round.

The PGA Tour setup at Westchester is an example of how to combat length with trouble in play.  Ditto the post on W.V Open.


Mark_Fine

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2001, 12:06:00 PM »
Jamie,
Narrow the fairways, raise the rough and dry out and shave the greens and most any course can dramatically increase its difficulty.  I'm just not sure that is the answer.  Southern Hills was taken right to the edge to make it play the way it played.  I don't think the members would enjoy playing the course that way every day.  (Sounds like Merion had to do the same).  Furthermore, I don't think the superintendent could justify the budget to maintain those conditions year round nor would he want to.  Moreover, I'm not sure the players enjoy playing in those conditions.  Golf's not supposed to be easy but it is supposed to be fun.

I'm all for less maintenance and more firm fast conditions.  But what is an architect to do "these days" to challenge the better players?  I guess one alternative is to ignore them!
Mark


Mark_Fine

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2001, 12:13:00 PM »
John,
Architects are armed with statistics as to how far golfers hit a golf ball.  They even know how far a ball will roll into the wind, with the wind, on different kinds of grasses,... on and on.  The good ones know where to put the hazards.  

Again, I argue, added length does not necessarily equate to a loss in strategy and/or interest.  

In case you didn't know it, the average golfer can not reach a par four of 390 yards in two shots!  This is the basis for the
"slope" system which is tied to how the average golfer (really the bogey golfer) plays a golf hole.    
Mark


Mark_Fine

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2001, 12:17:00 PM »
John,
Not sure if you have played Westchester, but it is by no means a short golf course.  They approach U.S. Open conditions for that tournament as well.  It might say 6700 yards on the card but it plays well over 7000.  

Ed_Baker

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2001, 12:19:00 PM »
Mark,

To use your own example of 490yds for the pros and 340yds for the "masses", those yardages are probably correct to illusrate the "extremes" between the abilities of the golfers.

How in Gods name could you ever design and "sell' that premise to any owner or membership. How would you meld the maintainence with that? Have 150yd "waste areas between the members tees and the tips?

I think Dan is correct when he points out the danger of "extremes" and at this point in golf history there seems to be an ever widening "extreme" between the amateur and pro games,I don't know how you effectively design courses to be able to satisfy both groups.Dan is right,let them play on TPC'S.


Dan King

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2001, 12:23:00 PM »
Why is it that par means that all level of players can reach a green in regulation? At one time par was a level of excellence, now it is only a level of mediocricy.

If I can only hit my best shots 150 yards (I'm actually a bit longer than that) I can still play a 450 yard par-4. It just means it will take me three or four shots to reach the green.  If I want to reach the green in fewer shots I should work on improving my distance, not insist the hole change.

The key is to challenge both the golfer that might take four shots to reach a par-4 and the golfer that can reach it in two. This might mean hazards at strange distances, fairways that don't follow straight lines, rough at various widths, etc...  

But one thing both golfers can be challenged on is around the green. Regardless if the shorter hitter misses the green with his fourth, or the long hitter misses with his second, they will both be faced with options around the green. Make the area around the green less consistent, give the green interesting contours, add some harsh penalties close to greens, challenge both golfers short games.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:
"Premature ejaculation was invented by the Scots, largely as a means for a quicker (and thereby cheaper) evening out."
--Eric Idle

JamieS

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2001, 12:42:00 PM »
Mark,
I agree that the entire answer is not conditioning. I was just giving you an extreme example of how it does work. We all know that members would not stand for those conditions day to day.
It's just that with todays calibre of tour player, almost any course, no matter how difficult it is perceived is rendered defenseless under "soft conditions".  Look at the TPC Stadium course and what a monster it is supposed to be...about 5-6 years ago Greg Norman crushed it(about 20 under) under benign conditions. After that, the course has been set up fast and firm every year. The same could be said about Westchester CC as well. That course has played tougher in recent years.
I guess that would lead to a different question...Are todays Architects running out of ideas other than length to challenge players?  
After reading your last post to John...I now understand your position and agree that adding length doesn't have to be a compromise for a great design, but thankfully, we now see some great architects turning away from the "monster length" courses and giving us something more creative and special.
I'll leave with one last question...has technology ruined some courses and caused new courses to become too one dimensional?

Mark_Fine

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2001, 01:05:00 PM »
Dan,
Do all that stuff you're talking about, I love it!  But in the process, why not add some longer tees for the big boys?
Mark

John_Conley

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2001, 01:06:00 PM »
Mark:

You and I probably agree, but are looking at the issue from different sides.  Westchester challenged Tour Pros with two short 4s and a short 3.  Modern courses in my market don't do that - so there's 300 more yards right there.

"good ones know where to put the trouble" - on long holes, it has to be on the sides or rounds will take too long.  #5 at Southern Dunes is a great hole without being long, one reason I'm a fan of Steve Smyers.

Why do I like 470 yard holes (adjust for your region - I'm at sea level where we get a lot of rain in the summer... the number may be 525 if you have elevated tees, thin air, and firm fairways)?  Today's strong player (I'm thinking D-I college or U.S. Mid-am participant) says it is long and an average 17 hcp says it is short.  Used in place of a long par 5, this increases the challenge for a "par-breaker" without making it too hard for others.

A model to work from (conceptually):
One short, one medium, and one long par 3 per side.  One reachable par 5 and one that is 3 shots for everyone.  Four par 4s that will play from a drive and a pitch to two long shots.  Move up an alternate tee a full 50 yards on two holes per side and you have taken out a full 200 yards for a player who doesn't want to take on all the challenge (these are holes where forced carries are appropriate off the tee) and call one of the long 4s a par 5.

Sketching this out on a napkin, I get a course of about 6100 yards or a little more at par 71 for "member" play that can be morphed to 6400 yards par 70 with minor tweaking.

Won't host a U.S. Open, but most courses don't.

We can rattle off names of courses we like that are "short" by modern standards - in my book that's 6400 par 70, 6700 par 72 - but can you name many that have been built like this?

The question to ask yourself is WHY does Westchester play more like 7000 yards?  The more multiple tees you invoke, the more you have to widen the playing areas and keep trouble out of the way.  The people that play these courses will still have handicaps over 10, and we want them to finish - don't we?


Dan King

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2001, 01:28:00 PM »
I thought about this at lunch -- I'm getting as sick as the rest of you, thinking about architecture at lunch. There are two foolproof ways to challenge golfers, regardless of their ability.  Doubt as to what shot to hit and making them hit shots they are less familiar with.  

On a long hole, doubt as to what shot to hit is tough to have because the golfer is going to have to hit it as far as he can to reach the green. For most golfers, a 490-yard par-4 is belt the ball as far as you can, find it, belt it again.  Not a lot of opportunities for doubt there (unless my campaign to do away with par would ever be successful,)   But on shorter holes, you can give the golfer all kinds of opportunities to have doubt about shot selection.

The best way to make any golfer hit shots that they rarely practice or make is with contours. Give the fairways humps and bumps. Put some nasty hazards close to the green, don't make all greens slope the same, build roller coaster greens, etc...  

Also, less than perfect conditions can add doubt and indecision.  Most golfers practice for ideal conditions. The closer to nature, the more likely you'll have shots you aren't familiar with.

Mark, first, I have no interest in challenging the best golfers. Like I said, they are the extreme, very small in numbers,  and not worthy of my thought. Better to let the governing bodies worry about them. That being said...

Length does not challenge the best golfers. The best golfers want courses to keep getting longer because it plays right into their hands, separating their talents from others. If you really want to challenge the best players you make them play on shorter courses. You take away their huge length advantage and they have to use imagination to beat players who lack their length. I'm not proposing this method. I think length is a valuable talent in golf and should be rewarded, I just don't understand the idea of lengthening holes to challenge the best.

The best way to challenge the best players is to do something about the ball. A competition ball can affect the longest hitter and the not-quite-longest hitter equally and these players can continue to use courses that challenge both length and imagination (but that assumes the tours have any desire to challenge imagination, which I don't believe.)

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:
"The real test of golf comes when a player is asked to play a shot that is beyond his normal repertoire. The challenge is to control your nerves when doing the unfamiliar. But when players with admittedly near-perfect swings, use near-perfect equipment in near-perfect conditions, the challenge is gone and the test is meaningless.
--Lorne Rubenstein

Matt_Ward

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2001, 02:21:00 PM »
Mark: Appreciate the thread!

I believe when architects change the angle of play for the better player -- sometimes as little as five degrees, the very nature of the hole changes dramatically. In this situation you don't add yardage necessarily but you do add a fair challenge.

The same applies to different angles the better player must play for their approach shots. Even when a better player hits a long drive if he is out of position in regards to the next shot you have effectively penalized him in a proportionate manner.

For that reason I am a big fan of multiple tees because they add versatility at many courses. Change the angle of play and the likelihood is an increase on the demands for the better player.

Since many people are not remotely interested in the better player (since they care only about their game for the most part) I believe courses that can include a vast array of play options will ultimately stand heads and shoulders above the rest.


George Pazin

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2001, 04:23:00 PM »
Mark -

I tend to think it really isn't necessary to throw in the long tees to challenge the big boys. No matter how long they seem to make courses, when the emphasis is on length, the courses are generally not much tougher for the big hitters - in fact, in a relative sense, they are easier.

I still watch the match between Els & Duval at Cherokee Plantation from Shells Wonderful World... Here was a course that was setup at 6500 yards, & both players struggled. Why? Difficult green complexes with real contour on the greens. I don't know about you, but I constantly marvel at how straight many of the putts you see the tour pros make every week are. Eventually, someone on tour needs to wake up & realize the best way to test the pros is not to set up 7300 yard tracks with flat greens.

The bonus would be that the same courses would be great for a lot wider range of players.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_Fine

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2001, 05:05:00 PM »
George,
I hear you but not so sure I agree.  Why then are many of the great old courses considered obsolete without added changes, particularly length (that most of us don't really like)?

Furthermore, are you saying that Cherokee Plantation is more strategic and challenging than Merion and Pine Valley??

I still remember I think it was Scott Verplank's comment about #13 at Pine Valley that went something like this, "It's a nice par four requiring a shortish iron approach to an interesting green complex".  #13 as you know is 448 yards and most of us would describe it a bit differently.  


George Pazin

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2001, 05:41:00 PM »
Mark -

I can't comment on Cherokee Plantation as it relates to PV or Merion, because I've never played any of them, & the only one I've really seen on TV is CP. The last time the big boys played at Merion I was a hoops guy, not a golfer.:-)

From what I've read about PV on this site, when the Crump Cup is played there, the greens give top amateurs as much as they can handle. While the pros are that much better, I suspect they would still struggle around the greens.

Look at the 99 Open at Pinehurst. The USGA wisely did not utilize heavy rough as a primary defense. It was setup pretty long - somewhere around 7200 yards for a par 70 as I recall - but the primary defense was the green complexes, though I must admit, I agree with many that the green speeds were a little over the top.

Getting back to the original question: what's an architect to do? That's a tough one. I tend to think to survive & prosper, they probably have to build courses of "Championship length," whatever that means. Ultimately, until the USGA & PGA start setting a better example, they probably don't have much choice. :-(

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_Fine

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The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2001, 06:16:00 PM »
George,
You're getting to my point.  You can slick up the greens at a Pine Valley to boardline rediculous and make anyone look foolish but that is not what the architecture intended.  If courses as strategic as Pine Valley can not be made challenging for the better golfers without tricking them up, what are today's architect's to do?  

Don't get me wrong, I love the old classic courses.  I generally have a lot more fun like most playing from 6300 yards than from 7000 despite being a pretty decent golfer (3 handicap).  But forget my own game, I still think architects have a dilemma about how to cope with challenging the better golfers.    


TEPaul

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2001, 05:40:00 AM »
Mark:

Great topic and really really good answers from others to your question.

In a strict design sense adding yardage is certainly one way to go (adding tee yardage) and that's the way a lot of architects have gone for about 40-50 years now. But some of those who responded to your question gave you other and very valid ways to challenge really good players (even touring pros) without simply adding yardage (and at the same time accomodating other levels of players). Designing golf holes with fairway features like bunkering, angles (rough), water, trees, whatnot can work in an ideal world for any and every golfer if they would simply play from the tees that are commensurate with their games! But of course they never do that for a variety of reasons. It is cumbersome and inconvenient to do that too. A group of recreational golfers who are like golfing buddies rarely use different tees!  And in a tournament situation (certainly a class A player tournament) it is impossible to do that.

But in a strict design sense some of the ideas of architects like Steve Smyers are definitely clever and valid ways to challenge very good players and accomodate the average player and even the bad player.

There is a ton of detail in Smyers's design style to deal with the dilemma of how far the ball is traveling other than just adding length but so as not to get into it all I would state his basic premise and solution as I'm understanding it. That is to basically take the older design style (many of the old classic courses) that often  rewarded length only for lengths sake and to turn that concept upside down; although they (the older courses) might offer some distance challenge (like a bunker). But they very often didn't really combine the challenge of both distance and ACCURACY.

That's what Smyers means to do. He isn't advocating shutting down the really long hitter, only making him think much more about accuracy if he wants to use the option of all his length! This is an excellent design compromise on Smyers's part because it gets away from this knock of taking the driver out of a player's hands. Smyers isn't doing that in a true sense; he's basically putting the use of a driver right between the player's ears which isn't a bad place to be at all!

JamieS for a perfect example of what I'm talking about might be the comparison of two really long par 4s. Say the 18th at Huntingdon Valley and the 9th at Commonwealth. On Huntingdon Valley's 18th a long ball hitter only needs to think about the basic diagonal carry or the topography and bunkering (some trees right) and hit it hard. If he does hit it hard he really doesn't need to think that much about accuracy (unless he want to be on the right side which they say is best but not that big a deal). A guy like Tiger from the tips could probably hit his tee shot with a 3 wood up into that big wide fairway all day long (with not much thought as to accuracy). But on #9 Commonwealth Tiger could hit his driver if he wanted but he would be running into a  decreasing fairway width the farther out he went. But still the choice is his and if he wants the distance the premium is almost totally dependent on ACCURACY!

Also on that hole the dilemma on the tee shot really doesn't come into play for the shorter player since he should be going over that narrowing fairway dilemma for Tiger with his second shot.

Also Mark:

You ask; "Why are some of these old classic courses considered obsolete without added changes like length (tee yardage) that most of us don't like". The simple answer is that basically the people you say that and are making those claims have no earthly idea what their talking about!

They are looking at those courses one dimensionally or with a lack of understanding of all the ramifications of really good design and certainly some of the design assets of those course that just aren't being utilized. To really understand that you should carefully read again what Jamie Slonis said about Merion in the Hugh Wilson. Merion may have been a little over the top on some of their greens on one or two days of that tournament for the level of player in that tournament (some really good mid-ams and national caliber mid-ams) but it didn't have to be to really challenge them!

Frankly, those that saw Merion in the Hugh Wilson were right in saying that the course could have challenged the best players in the world on that weekend. And even more interesting Merion is coming to understand (accurately) that they don't even need to narrow down their fairways with high rough to make that challenge even more interesting. That they can actually expand their fairways back to their 1930 widths and couple that with restored firm and fast playing conditions "through the green", not just on the greens.

But to go in that direction evokes screams that the course is "over the top" or "tricked up". That is just not so! Of course it could be if they went too far but they don't need to do that. This is the proper and ideal "maintenance meld" into really great golf architecture! And this is what Jamie Slonis is talking about--and he's absolutely right!

You also bring up the dilemma of a how a general membership will handle something like that. Well, tournament set-up and everyday play set-up is also a very interesting subject and area and in the hands of a good super and an understanding and educated committee and membership can definitely be managed to accomodate all. Sometimes general memberships come to actually appreciate this kind of direction and playability. That is certainly so at Huntingdon Valley.

So there are all kinds of ways to deal with the dilemma of distance and length from an architect's or a super's or a club's perspective other than just adding length and tee yardage.

It just takes more understanding than is apparently out there generally, but I really do believe that more golfers and clubs or beginning to figure it out!

I'm also no advocate of designing or setting up golf courses so that every level of player can basically experience the same things and use the same clubs on golf holes. In that way I've never agreed with Alice Dye. That just isn't really golf to me--it some sort of weird attempt at golf egalitarianism taken to a ridiculous extreme.

I know this personally, because I played at a good level for a long time and I was always very short off the tee. Sure, in retrospect, I guess I would have liked to hit it out there with some of the long hitters  but I'm very proud of how I was able to beat long hitters and those that were much more accomplished than me in certain areas of the game by using some assets I had that they didn't. It made me understand and manage some really well designed golf course with what I had.

That to me is the variety of the game and its architecture. I probably wouldn't have been able to do that on a bunch of 7400yd tracks. So in the end it probably wasn't just me that was beating those long hitters (and probably better players from the same tees and yardage)--it was the clever architecture, and that's the way it should be, in my opinion.

So again, I'm an advocate that architects, clubs and their stewards should look at what they have and how to use it. And for new construction use some of the clever ideas and concepts of guys like Smyers. Length may be one way to go but it's by no means the only way to go!


John_Sheehan

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2001, 09:25:00 AM »
Great post. Thanks to Mark for asking the question, and to all of those who have contributed such thoughtful responses.

Matt Ward-
regarding your comment:
“The same applies to different angles the better player must play for their approach shots. Even when a better player hits a long drive if he is out of position in regards to the next shot you have effectively penalized him in a proportionate manner. “

Amen. For example, Pinehurst gets mentioned as a wonderful venue for the Open – and it is.  But I disagree strongly that the rough was appropriate.  That course was designed to reward the use and understanding of angles and contours.  Narrow the fairways (as the USGA did), and you have lost that basic, basic, basic Ross design element. If the course were allowed to be played hard and fast through the green, with fairways wide enough to play the angles, we would have seen an even better Open.  As it was, any strategic advantage to the placement of the drive was neutralized by USGA’s forcing the players to land in a pre-determined narrow corridor.

How can they justify penal maintenance practices, on a strategic course?  The USGA dictated, “you MUST hit it in this narrow slot” despite the fact that, like Augusta, Pinehurst was designed to reward a perfectly placed drive to set up the appropriate angle to the hole location.  Hit your drive out of position, and you have a chance to spin the ball from closely mown surfaces, but at the cost of a much more difficult angle. The contours on the greens, the bunkers guarding the hole locations were the defense.

I wonder sometimes if this basic strategic design concept has been lost, misunderstood or just plain ignored by most modern architects.  MacKenzie used to say something to the effect that rough is the last defense of a poorly designed golf course.  Yet when faced with trying to combat the increase in distance, most people resort to the same old lines of “lengthen the course, add rough, and make the green speeds unconscionably fast.”  There are so many options that are ignored.  This post is a good source of alternatives, yet even here I see people falling back on some of these tired options.


TEPaul

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2001, 10:08:00 AM »
JohnS:

Good post of yours. Basically if and when you explain to golfers the things you just said in your post above they do start to understand. But why would they be expected to understand otherwise? Things have changed a lot over the decades.

The good news is I'm finding that although things changed alot things pretty much changed about the same way across the board. That makes it easier to explain things and change them back to what they're supposed to be across the board.

Sure, you occasionally get some people like a few at my club that said; "Who the hell is Donald Ross, that was 80 years ago and what do we care about what he thought now?"

The even better news, I think, is the availabiliy of some of these great old aerials! Particularly the ones from the 1930s. That was when most of the golden age courses were at their absolute best! After the WW2 so many things changed with those courses and probably the economy measures of the war itself was the unintentional beginning of the destructive but similar cycle. Coming out of the war years I bet the vast majority of these clubs didn't even realize the difference or what most of the things you mentioned above even meant. Or they forgot.

I will never forget about five years ago at a tournament at Manufacturers, some guy mentioned to me that there was an entire aerial collection in Wilmington DE going back into the 1920s of almost every course in the Delaware Valley. I went down to see what they might have on my course and I'll never forget when the lady came out and showed me the first one I just thought, Wow, what in the world was that all about? Basically that was the moment I became addicted to golf architecture. But it took me about two years from then to make sense of it all!

The process of taking a restoration through a membership is an issue in itself but explaining many of the elements and principles the way you did above is the way to do it. It isn't as hard to convince them as you might think if they are even half willing to listen.

And once the club gets the restoration go ahead those aerials are everything! If you're lucky enough to have a few of them and they are good ones and clear, it just takes all the guess work out of it. There it all is as good as it can get and the way it's supposed to be staring you in the face in black and white as clear as day!


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2001, 11:13:00 AM »
Some very interesting comments and ideas.  I have played devils advocate here to some extent to get people talking but at the same time, I do believe there is only so much the architect can do before having to resort to added length or questionable design practices to reign in the better players.

For example, what length did Merion play for that tournament Jamie?  I know they can now stretch Merion out to nearly 6800 yards or more.  What challenge would the design have presented off the white markers?  Would players then be carrying four or five wedges and few if any woods?

I think Tom started to address my question about the obsolete classic courses.  To some extent his response surprised me.  If I understood him correctly, he implied many of the classic courses were not all that strategic for the longer player and that "accuracy" was often left out of the equation??  Interesting!

But again, let's take a course like Cypress Point (I'm trying to pick classic courses that I think are the epitome of strategy); at 6500 yards is that course still a Championship test?  When guys start nearly driving the 17th hole, you have to take notice.  That means the next level of golfers are hitting 50 yard sand wedges.  What's an architect to do?  

Is Smyers really designing courses that are more challenging to all levels of golfers (without adding length) then the Mackenzies of this world designed?  Not the ones that he has done that I have seen!

Mark


TEPaul

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2001, 05:33:00 PM »
Mark:

I don't know that I implied that classic courses weren't strategic for the longer player. There was plenty of strategy for the longer player when they were designed, but my God, I don't think Mackenzie envisioned somebody carrying the ball over 300yds. Why would he? Or if he did he didn't do a lot about it in his designs in the 1920s and 1930s.

Some of the earlier designers certainly felt that the distances the ball was going to travel in the future would increase dramatically and planned for it with their design principle of "elasticity". We certainly know that about William Flynn in his very own words. He also recommended that clubs just move things like their tee shot bunker features and such downfield to compensate.

There is still the "C" nine at Huntingdon Valley that we can point to that was definitely distance futuristic so you really can't point to that and say there is a dilemma there as to how to handle the increased distance since you already said that even today that nine is either unfair or a poor design. Somehow I get the feeling that Woods would figure a way to handle the "C" nine though.

What I was trying to say about the classic course and how a guy like Smyers is trying to conceptually turn things upside down is this. On many of the holes of the old classic course once the long hitter negotiated something like a long carry distance bunker or something he was often out in the open--in a rather wide expanse of fairway or whatever. Smyers is talking about narrowing this area down to make the longer hitters of today think more and think accuracy combined with their massive driver tee shots. I haven't seen Smyers's courses but I got that concept from one of his recent articles so maybe it's something he plans to do in some of his future designs.

I think the wakeup call may have been something like the last Amateur Woods won at Pumpkin Ridge and on the 18th hole Miller stated seconds before Woods hit his tee shot that there was no way he could carry those center bunkers that were exactly 300yds (and a big open expanse beyond them). Seconds later he did just that and both announcers were speechless for about 10 seconds. Today we constantly see Woods bombing drivers over every single fairway bunker in sight. So if architects are concerned about that 300+yd range they could narrow it down like Smyers suggests. Almost everyone else will be going over that area with their second shots.

Things have definitely changed distance-wise and again some of the things JamieS said about Merion in the Wilson is another way to go strategically.

Things have changed but they haven't gotten to the point that some are stating. Dan King is implying that Woods is hitting 490yd holes with a 2 iron and a pitching wedge! Merion's #18 is 490yds and I know Woods is super long but he's not going to hit that green with a 2 iron and a pitching wedge. Not unless he has some rock hard ground and about a 40mph tail wind! Dan just can't seem to get comfortable in the age he lives in! He either wants to be in golf a couple of hundred years ago or he's somewhere out in the future. He's probably right though that we all should just forget about the extremes!


John_Sheehan

The dilemma about length - What is an architect to do??
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2001, 08:19:00 AM »
TEPaul-  
I started this post early this morning and never got a chance to finish. I started it before your reply to my previous post, and I thank you for your kind words.

In your first post on this subject, you said:

“And even more interesting, Merion is coming to understand (accurately) that they don't even need to narrow down their fairways with high rough to make that challenge even more interesting. That they can actually expand their fairways back to their 1930 widths and couple that with restored firm and fast playing conditions "through the green", not just on the greens. “

This is so true, and so obviously true, I am amazed that it is not considered doctrine.  I think most people who hear the phrase “playing hard and fast,” believe that this does or should apply to only greens.  I know I have mentioned this before, but this year’s Colonial tournament was a perfect example of an entire course “through” the green” playing hard and fast.  The player who won was the player who played the best shots, created the best shots, used the angles, used the contours and knew which shots to play.  It did NOT reward the big hitter who did not play smartly, it rewarded the person who hit the ball accurately, and used the speed and contours “through the green” to his advantage.

Consider this: It not only did NOT reward the long hitter, but from the perspective of sheer power, it leveled the playing field.  I heard Mark Lye whining to the effect that “when Corey Pavin is able to reach 600+ yard par 5’s in two shots, they have gone over the top on making the playing conditions fast and hard.”  

This is sheer bunk.  This is the EXACT reason courses work best under hard and fast conditions.  Even the Corey Pavin’s of the world, whose length off the tee is closer to a distance the amateur can relate to, had a chance to compete on a level playing field.  

I realize that conditioning is not in and of itself a design element.  But, this is a great way to minimize the need for added length in design, and you don’t need to ignore any specific group of golfers in your design considerations.  I know this has been proposed here.  But I am not sure I believe in the idea of "ignoring the extremes."

Bring on the contours, the strategic angles, and contours that both penalize and reward, and mix with hard and fast conditions. The long hitter, and the crooked hitter are now equally rewarded or penalized.  The short hitters are no longer at a terrible disadvantage from a distance perspective.  Design courses that reward accuracy from the tee, and use contours through the green, use angles to challenge and reward both tee shots and approach shots, and barring weather conditions, allow the course to play hard and fast through the green.  When you combine this with other design elements mentioned in this thread, such as short par 3’s, short par 4’s, etc., you can create a course which will stand up to the long hitters, level the playing field for the short hitters, and be a joy to play for the amateur.

Regarding the importance of contours, a design element that I feel is either misunderstood or ignored by most architects today:  

MacKenzie, in “The Spirit of St. Andrews,” speaks of how he learned to understand and love the 16th hole at TOC, a hole he once wished to change.  Along with Herbert Fowler, MacKenzie had considered a possible “remodeling” of the hole, suggesting that the Deacon Syme bunker “should be moved 10 yards to the left, so as to give a little more latitude to the long driver who plays between the Principal’s Nose and the railway.”  (Yes, even the good doctor was susceptible to this “remodeling” malady!)

After watching Ted Blackwell play the hole, MacKenzie realized he was completely wrong in his assessment.  He had missed a key design element of the hole, a “small valley in the bank of the green leading up to the place where the hole (was) usually cut on medal days.  If the tee shot is placed ten yards to the left or ten yards to the right (of the spot where he and Fowler wanted to move the Deacon Syme bunker), the advantage of this valley (was) lost.”  He goes on to say that during that time the course was playing hard, dry and fast.  “It was necessary to play for position and attack the subtle slopes from the correct angles.”


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