[Dan Kelly]

TEPaul --

As those crazy online-type people say, sir: LOL. LMAO. (Note: not ROFL. Living in a house with wall-to-wall hardwood flooring, I just don't believe in that.)

You're absolutely right: It feels so good simply to declare one's infallibility and depart! Remember Senator Aiken's prescription for Vietnam? Proclaim victory, and leave! (Occurs to me that you've stumbled across Mr. Mucci's problem. He declares his infallibility -- and then refuses to depart!)

Would you mind offering a short discourse on the metaphorical implications of the stymie? I confess that I've given the matter considerably less consideration than it undoubtedly deserves.

I wonder: How did you know I'm a BIG fella? Did my flabby prose betray me?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

Why would I depart when there is so much work to be done correcting fallacious posts.

Why are you posting when you should be out making detailed maps for golf courses ?  

Maps revealing every six (6) inch elevation change, bunkers, swales, creeks, ponds, oceans, pitch and roll of every fairway and green, including yardages to the front, side, middle and back of every green from five (5) yard increments, starting from the tee and ending on the fringe.  Try to limit some of the information to the point that these maps can be read within the confines of a four (4) hour round.

Don't forget that some people may prefer to know true north from magnetic north on your maps.

P.S. I never said I was infallible, only that I diagreed with your position, and that I thought you were wrong.

Now stop whining and get back to those maps !

[TEPaul]

Dan Kelly:

I didn't know you were a "big fella". I just thought I would puff you up in case you weren't--but I'm happy to know that you are anyway.

The metaphorical implications of the stymie??

Well, as we've seen previously, during the discussion of anything and everything to do with the history and evolution of the stymie and its elimination, one can easily see that the metaphorical implications could be almost anything.

I should probably just cut to the bottom line and say one might be Osama, the Taliban and all their fellow travelers! At the moment I can see that they might be presenting a bit of a stymie situation! A way to resolve this might be their elimination either actually or legislatively or even declaratively as you just mentioned vis-a-vis Senator Aiken and Vietnam (although the latter is not a course of action I would recommend). But certainly disabusing them or eliminating them if they were not disabusable would be! How is there any metaphorical connection between disabusing Osama and the Taliban and the stymie? I have no real idea but one might possibly be a very clever hook putt or even chip over the top of into the cup, if you know what I mean!

Now Pat might not agree with this metaphorical implication or comparison or elimination but that I really would have to wait and see about for myself. That would truly be an interesting verbal dance at this point!

[ForkaB]

Tom Paul

You probably thought that your scurrilous attempt to disparage my role in the great Stymie debate of August 18 would be protected by the inability of the GCA search "engine" to throw up any useful data, but, YOU WERE WRONG!

I quote from the relevant messages of that fateful day........

Rich Goodale

"Thank you Patrick
Actually it's more global even than you suspect. Your posts and Tom Macwood's innocent query above have made me realize that this whole golf course restoration/renovation/vandalism trend/issue can also be traced back to that fateful day in 1951. The nefarious thread of events went something like this:
1. No Stymie = no chippping skills
2. No chipping skills = no need for those troublesome chipping areas surrounding all those Ross and Ross-influenced type greens
3. No need for chipping areas = a void in strategic interest around the holes
4. void in strategic interest = need for rough, trees, water and bluegrass in greens complexes
5. Need for the above = need to also lengthen, flatten and strew the rest of the course with more bunkers and more trees and more water.
6. Need for the latter = need for course doctors.........
7. Need for course doctors + need for USGA to feel relevant and manly = Oak Hill and Inverness and...........
The rest of this is just too horrrible to write, much less think about, but the story goes on and on and on and on and on.......
But, enough negativism! If, as you and I now strongly advocate, the stymie can be brought back, this whole nefarious set of events can in fact be rolled back, and maybe, just maybe, we'll be seeing those white faces of Merion again, probably inspiring the same sense of awe and joy as the White Cliffs of Dover did for the returning British troops at the end of the second World War.  
I can hear Vera Lynn signing in the background........."

Tom Paul

"Nice going Rich, your seven step stymie disaster scenario is the best"

Pat Mucci

"Rich Goodale,
I'm disappointed in myself and others.
There it was, sitting there staring us in the face all these years and we never saw it.
You have presented it so clearly, how could we have missed it all these years ?
I knew there was a connection, but I couldn't quite fit all the pieces of the puzzle until you outlined it so brilliantly."

I apologize for this most unfortunate lapse in my usually impeccable modesty......

[Dan Kelly (real name)]

Thank you, Mr. Goodale, for that fortunate lapse in your usually impeccable modesty -- if only because of the memorable line, from Mr. Mucci: "I'm disappointed in myself...."

I hadn't thought such a thing was possible.

One question: How could you hear Vera Lynn signing in the background? I always think of signing as, well, silent!

[ForkaB]

Dan (or should I now call you "real name"?)

My tyops are legendary.  In fact, in my previous post I meant to refer to Tom Paul as "squirrelous" (i.e. thrifty and cute) rather than "scurrilous" (whatever that means) .

Cheers

Rich

[real name (Dan Kelly)]

Rich --

I hope it was intentional, but either way:

"Tyops" is a keeper!

[TEPaul]

Rich:

That may have been an accurate search and report of what had been said previously about the stymie between you and Pat but what you're failing to admit is that everything you've ever known about the subject of the stymie you learned from me! So even if it seems that I may not have been totally right about that stymie discussion,  fundamentally I'm right anyway!

Thanks for mentioning the tyops about calling me scurrilous when you meant squirrelous. The fact is I would rather be considered a scurrilous SOB than thrifty and cute and I'm apt to shoot those thrifty and cute little SOBs when they create havoc on top of my roof and in my gutters at 6 in the morning when I'm trying to get a little rest with my wife after being up all night posting on Golfclubatlas!

They're bad little seeds those squrrilouses, particularly at this time of the year when they're stocking up for the winter. I would rather they just allow me to go down to Safeway and buy them a winters worth and let me sleep!

But even that would probably be a waste of my time because even if I did it they would still be up there creating havoc at 6am because all they ever do is two things, collect stuff for winter and when they aren't doing that they're chasing each other all over the roof and through the gutters trying to hump each other! They're sickening, shocking and tiresome and I want nothing to do with anything that smacks of describing them, like thrifty and cute!   Cute and thrifty--my ass!

[Michael Moore]

Wow! I was so distracted by the veritable Ryder Cup of course v. course "match play" (oh when oh when will it end?) that I missed one of the great heavyweight bouts of all time. A one hundred-post pissing match! Point-by-point rebuttal! Sarcasm! BarnyF! This one's got it all. Ran, can we get a little icon, say boxing gloves, next to these heated threads?

No indicators of pin location at Atlantic? Does an eight-foot pole with a flag on it count? Are they invisible?

More seriously, I am in absolute agreement with Harvey Penick when he writes about the confidence that is gained with an exact yardage. I pack a non-obstructing, non-course-polluting Rangefinder in my bag, and while, yes, its usage adds 3 to 5 minutes to my round, it provides satisfaction, in the Dan Kelly sense of watching a shot that is covering the flag actually land near it instead of 50 feet away. My full lob wedge goes 95 yards and my full 9 iron goes 140 yards, and I find it hard to eyeball distance in that range. Will I flail about at my next tournament without my beloved device? Au contraire, I will be more likely to know the difference, by eye, between 100 and 115 yards.

It irks me to hear people say that yardage can be discounted in high winds. The knowledge becomes that much more important.

[ForkaB]

Michael, Michael, Michael!

Can you not see that your "Rangefinder" pollutes the absolute purity of our game, as held in sacred trust for us from those on high at Far Hills and Pilmour Place?  Having your own distance device on the course, on the day, is SOOOOOO much more sinful than relying on the rangefinders that were there the day before and led to those little notices on the sprinkler heads, or those that your caddy brought out onto the course in the morning and pinpointed exact distances to the pins of the day.  I hope you are not posting your scores.  if so, the whole USGA handicapping infrastructure would crumble......

Tom P

I am so sorry.  What I really meant to say was "squirarchal."  Your reply (and the word) remind me of my grandfather who used to sit on his back porch and shoot at any interloper, squirrely or otherwise who interfered with his birdwatching, with his untrusty 22 ((these were the '50's, his back yard was very big, his aim was growingly poor, and no blood was ever shed)).

You do know, of course, that those squirrels are all under the scurrious control of the squirarchal Ran, as are the waking habits of my 4-year old--all nefariously designed to insure that there will be at least some posts on GCA in those early morning hours when those useless Aussie friends of his are incresaingly failing to take up the slack....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

Well, you've missed the point again.

The line, "I'm disappointed in myself" was posted in jest, as was the jist of the entire thread on the STYMIE.

Rich Goodale,

You've forgotten how attention was brought to the STYMIE.  It was my post of 04-29-01.
Initially, you never saw the correlation between the abolishment of the stymie and the demise of chipping until I pointed it out in that thread.  

By your above and previous quote,
"no stymie = no chipping skills.....",
it is clear you came to recognize and appreciate that fact.  Then,
you quite cleverly pieced together the entire theory/conspiracy that made most sane people recognize the horrible and far reaching chain of events started in 1951.

Michael Moore,

Why do you need more than a flag stick with a flag or basket on it to tell you where the cup is located.  Why do you need different colored flags, secondary flags, maps, codes or signals on the tee for that purpose ?  What do you do if those indicators are incorrect ?  Shouldn't the staff and flag be sufficient for determining where the cup is located ?

Do you like GPS systems for pin location ?

What other USGA rules to you fail to abide by when you play golf ?

Would you call yourself a traditionalist ?

[ForkaB]

Patrick

Back in the good old days (i.e. pre-1951) did you eschew using the 6" length scorecards (or any other artificial device--i.e. ruler, measuring tape, etc.) to measure Stymies, or did you, like me, just trust your instincts (and ask your opponents to do likewise)?  I personally found this to be a very instructive lesson on the relative perceptions of children and adolescents on what 6" actually constituted in real life......

[Kevin_Reilly]

Patrick,

Since I am grouped with the "others" for my proclivity to use golf ball washers, might I also add that the courses that I usually play have the misfortune of having small refuse receptacles (sometimes called waste baskets) near each tee box!

Often they are painted GREEN in a weak attempt to disguise them!

Sometimes I can actually see WASTE (golf ball sleeves, old scorecards, paper cups and the like) in them!  

I much prefer to play courses without these eyesores...why can't every course have staff on hand to accompany players around the course so that waste can be handled without needing these metallic BLIGHTS!

Don't get me started on WATER FOUNTAINS, RESTROOMS and other abominations!

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You think Dan missed your point again, do you, because your remarks were in jest? And you seem to claim that you educated and turned Rich's thinking around, the proof being his previous and just above post, "no stymie=no chipping skills..." Well Rich too was jesting so it's back to square one for you--back to 1951 in fact.

Since you're into quizes, I've got a little stymie related quiz for you. When was the last vestige of the stymie rule removed from the rules of golf and what was it?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

For the historical record you also need now to fill us all in on the actual event that started the USGA on the road to removing the stymie from golf. I want the names of the players involved, the match, the year, the hole the stymie occured on, how exactly it affected the match, and, of course, the golf course this happened on!!??

[TEPaul]

By the way, even an iota of incorrectness on any item of the question will result in an automatic TILT and render everything you've ever said on here totally and utterly  wrong!!!!

But you can redeem yourself eventually if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were jesting on that particular item or answer!

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Your Granddad sounds to have been quite a man--most definitely a MAN FOR ALL SEASONS! It's not often one runs across someone who enjoys the blissful avocation of birdwatching and simultaneously tries to shoot people.

They just don't make them like they used to, do they? He should have met my half brother's (and second cousin) Grandmother. She used to sit by the fire and drink tons of glasses of martinis but she would only drink half the glass. The other half she would chuck into the fire. They apparently were always amazed how she didn't blow herself or her house up!

[ForkaB]

Tom

That sounds like MY grandmother!  Are you sure we are not related?  Her father introduced curling to TCC and the scariest thing is that my 4-year old daughter seems to be turning out exactly like her long deceased great-grandmother.  I have a hard time ahead of me....

Rich

PS--did I ever tell you about my other grandfather who used to pay the greens staff at the club for which he was greens chairman to spy on my father and his two brothers to make sure they were practicing golf rather than chasing young women through the cranberry bushes?

[Dan Kelly (aka Dan Kelly)]

Mr. Mucci --

Have you ever considered the possibility that other people would enjoy your company more if you wouldn't presume to tell them what they think, what they believe, what they do or do not understand?

Even if you're attempting to yank their chains when you do this, it's still irritating as hell!

As Mr. Paul was keen enough to observe: I did not miss the intent of your "I'm disappointed in myself."

You, apparently, missed the intent of my comment on it -- which was to poke some fun at you. I say "apparently," because the other possibility is that you may be one of these unfortunate people who think that feigning exquisite denseness is funny.

[Dan Kelly]

Rich Goodale --

Just a curiosity:

In your question to Mr. Mucci about measuring 6 inches, did you have any particular device in mind when you said "etc."?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

[TEPaul]

Oh my God, I don't know, things might be getting to that bad pass again! Is it possible that the jesting itself is turning deadly serious?

Ran might have to step in here and moderate or throw some water on the temperature. But if you're thinking of deleting, Ran, at least print and save or at least save somehow--there's too much good stuff on here to waste!!

[TEPaul]

This thread has gone every which way to Sunday and I just realized I never did see if Pat ever answered the original question to this topic. I'm way too tired to even think about looking back through to see--so if he didn't why don't we just forgetaboutit?!

[Dan Kelly]

TEPaul --

Isn't jesting always deadly serious?

I wouldn't imagine that that could come as a surprise to a fellow so knowledgeable about the ways of the world (including, but not limited to, the stymie).

[TEPaul]

It is? Are you sure you didn't just make a tyops and mean jousting? That's deadly serious!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

It has been my understanding that men are unqualified to ascertain, realistically what
6" is.  Women tend to be more objective, even if it causes deflated egos.

TEPaul,

I don't want to revisit the US AM at GCGC in 1936 all over again.  Nor the involvement of any players associated with GCGC, as I am in a state of denial relating to any ALLEGED incidents that may have had a negative impact on the STYMIE.  Did I pass ?

P.S.  Rich wasn't jesting, he understood the far reaching consequences of that event in 1951.  I'm surprised that you still haven't  understood the demise of chipping is directly related to the elimination of the stymie, especially since Gil Hanse explained
that to you quite clearly, in the presence of many, on the golf course at AppleBrook.
Dr. Katz needs to examine your state of denial and its causes.

Kevin Reilly,

The real shame is that golfers can't put discarded wrapers or sleeves in their pocket or bag until the round is done, then dispose of them.  All too often, with baskets or cans available, litter is strewn on the golf course, blending in with all the other golf course litter Dan Kelly craves so much  

Dan Kelly,

You would have to ask Ran Morrissett, Tom Paul, Mike Cirba, Geoff Childs, Gib Papazian, Mike Rewinski, Mike Fine, Noel Freedman and others on this site who have played with me, if they enjoy my company,
if I'm fun to be with, If I'm considered a good sport, a gentleman, and a good competitor.

You just can't get over the fact that someone disagrees with you, and your ridiculous position that every hole be required to have neon signs and personal information aides to insure that no in-precise information creeps into your head, thus preventing the perfectly struck shot, which by the way, will always be perfectly struck, regardless of the result of the shot.
And, since score is unimportant to you, shouldn't the perfectly struck shot be its own reward ?

Michael Moore,

I may have misinterpreted your post.

If you meant that an eight ( foot flag pole was sufficient to determine pin location, I agree and appologize for my response.  If that's not what you meant, you may CAPITALIZE my response  

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