[Tim_Weiman]

NAF:

I haven't made it back to PB since the Nicklaus work on #5, so I could only judge by pictures.  Maybe not a fair comparison, but it was all I could work with.

Regarding the sixth hole at Pebble Beach, I've just never been thrilled with any of the shots on this hole.  The second shot may be scary for the mid handicapper, but in the rounds I've played I ever felt any such players actually enjoyed the the shot.  Just an opinion.

Putting the match All Square strikes me as recognition that PD is a very strong newcomer.

Pete Gelea:

At the risk of offending purists, I'm also inclined to give PB points over CP based on public access. Would you also give Pacific Dunes even more points for being more affordable than Pebble?

Tom Huckaby:

I didn't start the thread thinking it would be without controversy.  Mostly, I wanted to hear exactly why people disagreed with my assessment.

My own view of Pebble Beach has somewhat followed the conventional "critics" thinking that the aesthetics of the place are so powerful that many people overlook the reality of several very ordinary holes.

What impressed me seeing Pacific Dunes the first time was how cool it seemed in the fog, how much was happening on the ground without the benefit of bright sunshine to really accent the experience.  I've not felt that way at Pebble.

We're in the rare air comparing PB and PD.  I'd just enjoy hearing more about where you disagree.

Ran:

I haven't spoken to TD directly on this point, but I doubt building a "hard" course was foremost on his agenda or that of Mike Keiser.  The spirit of Mackenzie is on full display at Pacific Dunes.

[THuckaby2]

Thanks for the explanation, Tim.  But read the "18th at PD" thread and you'll see where I'm coming from:  hard on the "experience" side of how to look at this.

And please don't get me wrong:  I absolutely LOVED Pacific Dunes and it hurts me to look at it in anything close to a negative light!

But if I love Pacific Dunes, I CHERISH Pebble.  I've had many important life events occur on or near that course... so my bias is obvious.

And I am also vastly underqualified to assess the "architecture."

Given all this, you still want to hear how we differ in our assessment?

It comes down to perspective, personal experience, etc.  I had a blast a PD and I'm not about to say anything against it... played it in all sorts of weather, also... it is a great, great golf course. Same goes for PB - I've played that in all types of weather also.  No offense intended, but PB wins on this account as well (in my book).

But dammit, PD is a great golf course and it truly hurt to write that last sentence!

I kinda feel better leaving it like this.

My apologies.

TH

[Peter Galea]

Tim, Public access is subjective. At $300+ a pop it's a stretch to call it public. What are the fees at Pacific? When fees get over $100 a round it really narrows your audience. I would call those fees "corporate access". I have heard it in the golf shops, "Put it all on my card, you guys want some shirts or shoes? Aw c'mon the company is paying for it".

[TPK]

I like PB #1, and I like how the course builds up as you go down to the coast holes.  Not every hole should have the crash of cymbals.

I also think #5 is terrific.  Depending on tee and pin position, the hole can change a lot.

#17 doesn't do it for me.  It's just that you are hitting over this meadow of sorts.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pete:

The fees at Pacific Dunes are $150 for the first round, $70 for the second and free thereafter.  In our group, only a couple guys took advantage of the free stuff.

I agree that "public access" is subjective and that once you get beyond a certain figure many golfers are excluded. The trend towards ever more expensive golf is clearly a bad thing.

But, there is a difference between Pebble and say Augusta.  If you really want to play Pebble "once in a lifetime" you can.  I don't think one can say that about Augusta.

[kilfara]

Naffer, calling no. 5 "the second-best par-3 at Pebble" isn't exactly what I'd call high praise.   No. 17 would be much less without its history, a flat hole with an interesting aerial view but not much else; think of it as a long par 3 with two small, alternate greens. And no. 12 is another mostly flat, long par 3 designed for the Nicklauses of the world. If no. 5 really works, then great, but I'll believe it when I play it.

Cheers,
Darren

[kilfara]

Tim, for what it's worth, I paid $81.65 per 18 holes between Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes in our last two days there. But then, as Michael Jackson once said, "I'm not like all the other guys."  

Cheers,
Darren

[NAF]

Darren,

#5 is as good as any of the par 3s we played together at Sunningdale New..maybe not better but as good....of course though no par 3 except #7 could compete with the set at Swinley..

I agree #17 is a let down..well the green isnt but the visual/flat ground yes...#12 is average at best, my point should have been that #5 is a very good par 3, and if you put in at Pac Dunes, would be my second favorite after #17...

Then again in the words of a wise man I met at Sand Hills, "Anyone can build a Par 3"...And Sand Hills par 3s are among the best of the best..Still as you saw Swinley has the best mix of par 3s anyone could want on a course and Rye is close behind..

[THuckaby2]

Did they raise the prices at Bandon in the last month?

I paid $120 for first round, $70 for 2nd.

That's the price if you stay on-site... I thought you guys did...

In any case, Darren you are my hero indeed re the # of holes you played.  Wish I was there - I couldn't get my pansy friends to continue after 36 and the volcano and beer won out over playing more solo.

Some day...

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Rich, sure the 19th might go to PB but what about the 54th?  How much would that have cost at PB?  By my reckoning you played Pacific Dunes THREE times for HALF the cost of ONE round at PB. With change for a brew and viddles. That's gotta count for something.
 BTW - you are now forever dubbed RoboRich in my eyes. As inspirational as the Bataan Death Marchers or Shackleton's Incredible Voyage.

[ForkaB]

Salg

As much as I enjoyed the 3rd 18 (actually 16) with Darren, somehow I think I missed out on something special by passing up on the Volcano snadwich and the blether at the 19th (37th) hole.

If you'd seen me that evening slouching and staggering across the parking lot at my motel that evening to the next door pizza parlor, you would have been excused if you had mistaken me for General Wainwright shuffling up to accept the sword of the defeated Japnese Generals on the USS MIssouri in Tokyo Bay in 1945.....

[Slag_Bandoon]

 I'll remember you as General MacArthur, stoicly standing on the brow of the ridge of the 10th tee, coaxing by will your scouting golf ball to within two feet of the hole off the right forebank.  Then me, following your lead by result but not by demeaner; as I was like a squealing 8 year old school girl that just got a pony. Thanks again for the tolerance.
 You and Darren were missed that evening but lionized also.

Tim W.  #9 has two great holes. I give it to PD.  

[kilfara]

Huckster, none of us stayed at the resort. Non-resort prices are $150, $70 and $0. Give me a summer's day that's long enough, and I'll work on lowering my average 18-hole price.  

[By the way, to make the smiley face, type a colon and then a backward-parenthesis with no space in between.]

Anyway, thinking about Pebble vs. PD tonight it suddenly occurred to me that as far as Pebble is concerned, with 20 rounds in the bank (pun semi-intended) I'm *over* the history. Once you get past a certain point, it's no longer Nicklaus's and Watson's old rounds you remember: they're your own. That is one compelling reason for me to choose PD in perpetuity; the other is that for me, when I now think "Pebble Beach", the $350 price-tag and the six-hour rounds is a clearer image than any of the history. No way do you have the chance to play 16 holes *alone* at Pebble, in two-and-a-half hours, or for free. THAT atmosphere means so much more to me than anything Pebble will ever be able to give me.

Cheers,
Darren

[John Bernhardt]

mark, I believe history is significant in a few situatin like pebble or toc, and i agree that all courses can be compared. I find it hard and often disagree with the hole by hole comparisons and the conclusions that come from it except that it is fun and promotes discusion.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

If you can offer a convincing rebuttal to Darren's last post, then you must be borderline genius....or at least deserving of a couple beers.

[Mark_Fine]

I find this topic amusing.  Not too long ago, there was a post with many here supporting the claim that when rating a golf course, you should be rating "the architecture" only.  Seems in this case, most are rating the golf experience, the cost, the ambience,...  Hope the editors from GD are reading this or they would really be confused how to improve their system    

I'm not suggesting any of you are wrong here.  It just further emphasizes the fact that everyone will see things in their own light and add their own weightings one way or the other.

Which is better, PD or Pebble?  Guess what, we'll never know.  Best I can tell, both are way up their on my favorites list!

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark Fine:

As you suggest, we all have the right to contradict ourselves.

I do try to concentrate on the "architecture only", but would never claim I can really do it.  Nor do I really expect others to be so pure.

[Mark_Fine]

It's tough Tim isn't it.  After all, we are human.  There is a lot more to a great golf course than just the architecture but then that's just my opinion!  The key, like in life, is proper balance.

[ForkaB]

Tim adn Darren

Tom H can (and probably will) speak for himself, but I thought I'd chime in.

When I first played Pebble in 1976 it cost $35/round and you got a free replay too.  That's part of my "history."  It wasn't long before the price of a round started to jump up and the freebies became "twilight rates" and then finally (in about 1983)  "That will be another $150, please!"  Wonder how long Bandon can keep its virginity.

If all were equal (i.e. price, pace of play) I'd play Pebble over PD, any day.  Of course things aren't equal, but then neither is Bandon cheap.  If what we're talking about is some ideal combination of the quality of the golf and the experience and the cost I'd opt for Brora, where you can get a 14-day ticket for $200, can play from 4 in the morning till midnight in the summer, dine on world class salmon and steak to your hearts content, drink the local whisky (Clyneleish), and even slum down at Dornoch from time to time when you get tired of the town and its golf.

Cheers

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich:

Sounds good to me!

[Paul Turner]

Finally seeing Pebble's 17th was most disappointing: I had images of Watson holing that chip with that wild, brooding background, but when I finally get there, I find a hole with a trimmed garden hedge down the right hand side!

[Ran Morrissett]

I would be SHOCKED if Tom Doak considered Pacific Dunes in the same league as Pebble Beach. Yes, PacDunes deserves its world top 30 ranking but that's about it - it lacks sheer challenge to be much higher or to be in the class of a County Down or Pebble Beach.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ran:

Out of respect for Tom I almost decided against my original post.

Let me just add that if Tom were to keep his mouth shut on this issue and simply go on to build a few more courses like Pacific Dunes, that would be fine by me.

Hell, I'd even get on a plane to Tasmania.

As for "sheer challenge", I suspect there is plenty for 99% of the world's golfers.

P.S.  Since you asked, I'll give the comparison to RCD some thought.  I happen to like that course far more than PB.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ran:

I do give the RCD vs PD match to County Down, but it was closer than I thought and I was forced to halve quite a few holes.

Perhaps I need another trip back to Newcastle to refresh my memory on what is so cool about RCD.

[kilfara]

Rich, when you say "all else being equal" with regards to PD vs. PB, are you including the history in that equation, or just the "experience"?

Or, to rephrase the issue entirely: pretend that Pebble Beach was located where Bandon Dunes is. Pretend that the Bandon resort consisted of PB and PD instead of BD and PD. Give Pebble the "history", such as it is, and the "experience" (rounds taking five hours instead of six) of BD. In other words, all of the intangibles are more or less even, but the golf courses themselves remain the way they are. Now, you're booking a week's holiday in Bandon, during which you'll be booking 10 rounds of golf (18 holes on four days, 36 on three days - sounds about right, no?). How many of those 10 rounds do you play at Pebble, and how many at Pacific Dunes?

Me, I probably play PD seven times, and Pebble three times. (I know I earlier said I'd play PD "every day of the week and twice on Sundays", but never in my life have I traveled to a golf destination with more than one course and still played only one course. I suppose that in a week as a guest of a member at Cypress Point I'd still try to sneak out to Pebble or Spyglass or Spanish Bay a couple of times; in a week at Pinehurst I'd probably manage to play one or two rounds away from No. 2.) Pebble is a course with holes I'd really enjoy playing, but that's a fair representation of how much more I like PD as a pure, undiluted golf experience. What would you say?

Cheers,
Darren

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