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Edwin Rognvaldsson

The long(ish) par four
« on: September 27, 2001, 04:11:00 PM »
I don't know about you, but I feel that there is a certain type of golf hole that is becoming less interesting with each course being built. I am talking about the longish par four, from around 410 yards and up.

Ran,
This is something that came to me when you said that you wanted to see more challenging holes of this nature.

But I have found all to many holes that fall within this criteria to be simply boring, i.e. more so than other holes. Is it just me or . . .


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2001, 04:58:00 PM »
Edwin,
 Why do you find long par 4's boring? The point generally is to make a golfer play all the clubs in the bag in the course of a round. Do you find it boring to miss the green and have to get up and down to save par? I don't understand the boring comment.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2001, 05:00:00 PM »
The key is the green complex - no one would consider Foxy, the 13th at Crystal Downs, the 13th at Prestwick, the 6th at Royal Melbourne West, the 2nd at Pinehurst No.2, the 18th at Winged Foot West, the 13th at High Pointe, the 9th at Inniscrone, the 15th at Riviera, the 16th at Pine Valley, the 5th at Fenway, the 10th at Lancaster or the 3rd at The Valley Club of Montecito as boring.

Seems to me modern architects mess up when they tone down the green complex on the long two shotters - they should do just the opposite! Most people are going to miss the green anyway so why not make the up and down as much fun/adventure as possible?  


Matt_Ward

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2001, 05:14:00 PM »
Edwin:

For what it's worth -- the long par-4 is central to golf as the fastball is to baseball. When the pitcher is hurling "heat" at 95 plus and you have to rip it or go down swinging it's something to see. That's what long par-4's are in golf. Short par-4's are akin to other pitches in baseball -- the curve, change-up, etc, etc.

When you play a long par-4 you are tested to do two things -- hit with power and accuracy TOGETHER on one shot off the tee an dquite likely on the second. We all know it's not easy.

To be totally frank, I really get tired of people who complain about long 4's but wax on and on like Hemingway about short par-4's. Gentlemen -- is there any relationship between the contant harping against long par-4's and the inability of some people to play them???

Agree with Ran -- get better green complexes because too many long par-4's I've played among moern designs have no real charcter -- they just lay flat like pancakes at IHOP.

A great long par-4 among modern courses is the 14th at Arcadia Bluffs. Plays usually into the prevailing wind and is about 475 yards. The hole has elements of an Irish hole you might find at Ballybunion. Great green complex and definitely to paraphrase Tillie ... "a man sized hole." Ditto the 5th at Bandon -- maybe the most demanding long par-4 when the breeze is up and in your face.

Just a humble opinion ...


GarySmith

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2001, 05:02:00 AM »
"Gentlemen--is there any relationship between the constant harping against long par-4's and the inability of some people to play them???"

Uh, I do believe you may be on to something.

IMO, a real test of golf should have a minimum of 4 "come on, let's see what you really have" type holes scattered about among the 18.


Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2001, 06:27:00 AM »
I think Ran's point is a good one, the challenge should lie in the green complex.  Since a good player today does not have much more then a 6-iron in, a good green would add some challenge.

Recently playing golf with my father, I realized that he relies on his short game to make up for his lack of distance.  A 450 par four does not bother him, he just counts on a good chip and putt.  And since is true that the greens are easy, this feat is not too tough.

I do not mind more severe greens, and have been a fan of faster greens bringing out the contours on long par fours on some of the old courses.  IMO.


BillV

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2001, 06:42:00 AM »
Just to be a pain in the butt, length is irrelevant other than to require different clubs.  

Long hole strategy is just as important as short hole.  Different degrees of execution can be expected for a 2-iron vs a 7-iron, but this is the core of where modern architectural details are often lacking!  Strategic features are what create the interest and keep things from being a slog.


Edwin Rognvaldsson

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2001, 07:50:00 AM »
I think Ran was spot on and I think he agrees with me to a certain extent.

I don't think that many golfers find the Road Hole boring, either.

Don't get me wrong. I have no problems with the concept of a long par four. I quite enjoy playing a good, long par 4. This is why I want to see more character in their design.

And I think some of you misunderstood what I was saying. In my mind there is a problem with the way many modern architects handle the longer two shotters. It is almost as if they are afraid of making them too difficult, trying to be "fair".

Ed, I hope this answers your question.


Ed_Baker

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2001, 08:12:00 PM »
Edwin,

Good responses, with valid points,yes?

Is boring the right word? Or is frustrating more appropos?

Being a lifelong "bunter" any hole longer than 425 yards is a 3 shotter for me.This presents a fun challenge to get up and down that is anything but boring.The fact that I can't reach most "modern" par 4's in regulation is only an issue on poorly designed holes ie:holes that are so penal that the architect dictates only 2 "bombs" will yield par.Forced carries of 200 yards or more,or multiple lengthy forced carries on the same hole would be "boring" and unplayable for most of us.Ultimately Bill V is correct,length is irreevent if the hole is designed well,regardless of the 'par' designation.


T_MacWood

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2001, 08:42:00 PM »
Matt
Beautifully said -- exactly who were you referring to, who waxes like Hemmingway about short par-4's?

I'm with Bill, length is irrelivent. Any idiot can design a hole that requires accuracy and length, give me a hole that makes me think -- no matter its length.


Tommy_Naccarato

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2001, 08:54:00 PM »
Edwin, I agree with Bill V., Tom Mac, and ultimately Ed on this one.

I share the same fate as Ed. I'm not a person of greatlength off the tee, but I do find that I like a long hole that is going to have to make me think about making a one putt to achieve par. In fact, I don't care if a number even has to even be assigned to a hole for par as long as I can still find a way to beat my opponent on the hole through my strengths and weaknesses as well as his.

Matt, Given you are supposedly a person of great length off of the tee, (Something I think Ed will concur, is of great admiration to me! ) do you find at times to get bored with driver sand wedge for the majority of a golf round? Do you feel that the equipment is out of control concerning YOUR golf game?


Matt_Ward

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2001, 10:02:00 AM »
Tommy N:

Good point!

You can really give long hitters a little heart burn if you design courses with interesting and demanding angles. If you don't add some real element of risk (I don't mean throwing water on both sides of the fairway and / or a zillion bunkers) long hitters will simply take the driver and bomb away with impunity. That's one element to consider.

I've played quite a few modern courses that opened this year (i.e. The Kingsley Club, Pac Dunes, Wolf Creek, Arcadia Bluffs, Carnegie Abbey) that all had interesting long par-4's , to name just a few types of holes at each course) because they added back tees that provided a different angle on long par-4 holes. Believe me, change the angle on the back tee by just a few degrees and the bunker / hazard complex / fairway angle that's in play from the white tee will be just as challenging, if not more so, when played from the tips.

But do not, REPEAT, do not make playing the driver a shot of impossibility. Good players who hit the ball long are not idiots. If there is no real possibility of success with the driver we will simply club down and proceed from that point. Tempt the long player in hitting the driver to me is the secret of the long par-4. Watch the top players on tour and if they know they can play the same long par-4 with something less than the driver they will do so.

I hasten to add another great long par-4 I saw this year. The 7th at Pac Dunes is a superb hole. When I played the course this summer I had the hole downwind and had nothing more than a SW approach after playing from the tips. Doak's design still challenges you because of the hump and hillocks in the fairway (what a treat!) and the green has enough character (something Ran mentioned) to still keep you interested in the hole. I'd love to play the hole in the opposite direction and see what it must be like -- a holy terror!!!

Tommy -- I don't get bored when I know I'm playing a course with great character that understands the pysche of guys like me who can bust it big time. I do get bored when playing a great number of Vegas courses (one area among others) where it's just grip and rip at all times without any real penalty. The courses I mentioned above have a superb collection of different holes but the long par-4's on them do TEMPT the driver from the long hitter without TAKING AWAY that option.
When I play courses with forced lay-ups what the architect is saying in my mind is that "we have no way to beat you so we will end the fairway." That's not golf -- I call that GOTCHA GOLF!

Controlled length off the tee is a great weapon and should be rewarded when executed in a sound manner. Guys who hit the ball shorter will possibly have other strengths in their game (i.e. chipping / putting) because few really long hitters have great touch.

There is plenty of jabbering on GCA about short par-4's and I agree they should be a fundamental element of golf design. Great short par-4's offer another real element in quality shotmaking. But golf holes should not be all about finesse -- the ability to stripe one is still, in my mind, a core element of the game. From my experience the great architects understood the connection between power and accuracy. You don't have to add one at the others expense.

My final point -- I too enjoy holes with great strategic value so yes, I agree with BillV and Tom MacWood. Thinking is fundamental the game -- so is developing holes that provide a high level of risk and reward. Too many designers today are taking the driver out of the hands of the long hitter -- think of it this way it would be no less different than having greens that are dead flat because you don't want to give any advantage to the player who can read greens and stroke the ball accordingly.

Tommy N:

It does concern with me about the length people hit it today. But, let's understand this -- if you scale back the yardage the long hitters gain today they will still be the longest. It's really relative.

The obvious plus is that it would be saving acreage for golf course development without having to constantly adjust tees and push them further back with each passing 5 years or so.

Not all of the courses I listed above are super long courses, but they do possess plenty of opportunities for the long hitter to decide whether or not the driver should be used. The worst courses I find are the ones that take away that option -- I just play such holes with my Hawkeye 12.5 or Ping ISI 1-iron. Trust me -- I get plenty of distance with these two clubs than most people get with their Sunday best drive and I say that without sounding arrogant or smug.

If you want to keep long hitters in check use some of the suggestions that Brad Klein mentioned. Put bunkers in the middle of the fairway -- just like the 3rd at Pac Dunes. Angle the tees at the back slightly to the side of the forward tees. Make carries to preferred fairway positions possible, but with clear penalities. Tommy, when I play I'm looking for the "quick kill" off the tee on any hole I play. Most holes today that I find in visiting them during rating trips for GD completely collapse after I play the tee shot. That's not the case with well thought out courses and I will add the Sky Course at LC as another example of making the long hitter think about it before busting it (i.e. the 9th, 11th, 12th, etc.).

Brad also mentioned keeping the ground as firm and fast as possible. All of these things need to happen. The longish par-4, in my mind, is where the rubber meets the road. Properly designed they reward the best drivers (no pun intended!).

Regards,


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2001, 11:29:00 AM »
Ran:

You mention the 15th at Riviera, admittedly an interesting green configuration but hardly long. Consider the 18th, now there is a solid long par four.


Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2001, 07:24:00 PM »
Shinnecock's collection of long par fours should be required study.
The 12th, 14th and 18th, are prepared to kick your booty, but allow a fair chance with a good short game.

Ran, I like the idea of interesting, yet not as interesting (penal) when a long iron is being used for the approach.

What are some examples of poor long par fours?
Nicklaus comes to mind very quickly.
I'll take #16 and #18 at the Bear. If you had a nice round going these holes will try to ruin it.


T_MacWood

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2001, 05:57:00 AM »
Shooter
Would the 13th Crystal Downs and 11th Oakland Hills be better holes if the greens were less interesting?

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2001, 06:58:00 AM »
Tom,
No.

Both  of the holes you mention are excellent examples of great par fours. Yes the greens are difficult (crazy), yet the chance to hit these greens are not only afforded to the golfer able to hit a high cutting 2 iron from 220 yards (see #16 at the Bear).

On #13 at Crystal there are a number of options as to how to approach the green. Should you bump it down the left or try to fly it?

Number 11 at OH plays shorter than the card because of the fairway (one of the "coolest" fairways I've seen). The green; while narrow and sloped, can be hit.

I would question the green at OH #14 though, and although I've only played it twice the 15th at Kingsley.

I like having options, I also like being rewarded for choosing the right one.

What do you think?


T_MacWood

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2001, 08:01:00 PM »
I don't think that length of a hole/approach should have any bearing on the amount of 'interest' or undualtions in a green -- the Road Hole as an example. Providing options and the undulations of a green are two different subject, are you claiming that the length of a hole should temper the severity of the undulations?

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2001, 08:24:00 PM »
Yes,

The 6th green at NGLA could (should) not be placed on #10.

Do you agree?

Both 6 and 10 are excellent holes.

IMHO
"A good design takes into consideration the type of shot being played into the green."

...a good golf course will test all parts of a players game. if the greens are too severe then too much of the score will come from the putter and not enough reflected in the players ability to hit other shots. the same could be said about wide open courses vs. narrow courses (or about the different majors). breath...a great course will expose and test all parts of a players game. my favorite courses have variety, and in this contrast comes a great sense of balance.

What courses do you think test all parts of a players game?


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2001, 11:00:00 AM »
Bob, I need a swing lesson from you! I know you guys from the southern parts of Africa are tough but gee, even with a Pro VI, I still reckon the 440 yard 15th at Riviera to be a long hard par.

Shooter, I reckon a cool green is still a cool green even if you are coming in to it with a three wood. I take your point though -five 13th greens at Crystal Downs on one course would send it over the edge.


T_MacWood

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2001, 11:39:00 AM »
Shooter
A poor example, the 6th green is ringed by sand -- if your saying that it is not preferable to ask someone to fly a long approach to green ringed with sand, I might agree, but that is not the question here---all things being equal the undulations of the 6th would present an interesting factor for any length hole.

Why are 'interesting' undulations inappropriate for longer approaches? Why should putting be more or less important based on the length of the approach? Is this theory based on, or developed from, the strengths and weaknesses of your own game?

Do you believe that the long approaches required to 'interesting' greens at Pine Valley, Crystal Downs, Pinehurst #2, Royal Melbourne, ANGC, St.Andrews, Oakland Hills, Pebble Beach, Prarie Dunes and the NGLA are unfair and/or put too much of a premium on putting? What do you make the 9th green at Yale -- is the Biarritz generally a bad idea?

Is there any particular reason why you use a psuedo?


Tim_Weiman

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The long(ish) par four
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2001, 03:42:00 PM »
Matt Ward:

I'm curious what you mean by the statement "there is plenty of jabbering on GCA about short par-4's".

What is "jabbering"?

Do you mean that there are people who don't understand the value of quality short Par 4s?

What do you think it will take to better educate people about the value of having a couple good short par 4s on a course?

Tim Weiman

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2001, 04:54:00 PM »
Edwin,
Thanks for elaborating on your initial comments. I misunderstood your intent.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
The long(ish) par four
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2001, 05:35:00 PM »
Tom,

We probably don't see this the same way.

My ideas, (coming from my own game for sure) relate to a course rewarding me from a well struck shot. Pinehurst #2 is great because it plays on this "border" on many holes. Yes, I do taking scoring seriously.

I relish the idea of having to try to figure out the best way to play this shot. In this I think we would agree that having choices is a good thing. I feel however that with a longer shot in, that the premium for accuracy should not be as high as it should be for a shorter club. This may be where we agree to disagree.

My example of 6 and 10 at NGLA were the first to come to mind. Some others would be 11 and 17 at Shinnecock, both excellent par 3s.
Would #17 at Shinnecock be a better hole if the green had as much conture as #11 or #6 at NGLA?
Ran's right, a couple of greens that border "fair" on a course is enough. Having so much slope makes it difficult to discern a good shot from a poor shot (with a long shot into it).
The 9th at Yale works because it rewards the right type of shot and is big enough to handle a long shot in. (new topic). The Biarritz works. #9 at Piping Rock has a large flat green and the short #17 a small sloping green. This works.
The Medalist in Florida has a great set of greens that have the right amount of slope and size for the length of shots played into them.
Remember when TPC Sawgrass opened? This example explains my ideas. TPC Sawgrass is now one of my favorite places to play.


T_MacWood

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2001, 06:38:00 PM »
Your answers to my questions, the couple you attempted to field, are definitely played toward the 'border'. Since you relish the idea of having to try to figure out the best way to play a given shot, I take it, based on your non-answer, you do not consider a putt a shot. What does the trajectory of the approach have to do with when you can and cannot have interesting undulations on a green?

Shinnecock's biggest weakness are the general lack of interesting contours found on its greens. In my mind there is a big difference between unfair and interesting -- but then again I think putting and chipping are important aspects of the game.


Matt_Ward

The long(ish) par four
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2001, 07:22:00 PM »
Tim:

My point about "jabbering" is that I often find it amusing from a number of GCA contributors who tout the glory and majesty of the short par-4. I mean if you listen long enough I think you would think short par-4's are the be all and end all of any golf course.

To be clear -- I find short par-4's a clear challenge for architects to design and should be incorporated into any design as a "change of pace" type hole.

I have never played a superior course that did not have a grouping of solid long par-4's as its chief backbone. To be honest I personally believe a number of people who wax on and on about the merits of short par-4's do not possess the game to handle long holes of this type.

Please re-read my first post on this topic from 9/27. The long par-4, in my mind, is akin to the fastball in baseball. You find out right away who can swing the bat when you demonstrate you can handle the fastball.

I agree with Ran that you don't need to be reverend about par -- if a layout works for a 68 or 69 par so be it. I don't see many players shooting low scores at Wannamoisett and it's a 69 par. Drop out the boring par-5's that are often weak and replace them with muscle long 4's.

I also agree with Ran about green complexes on long par-4's having sufficient contour to keep these holes from simply collapsing after a long hitter busts a big tee shot.  

I also agree with Brad Klein that on new courses it's best to add bunkers that are in the middle of the line of fire and not just on the sidelines. Make players either hit around or over them.

Long live quality designed par-4's with length that make player's think from the tee shot, approach putting surface. Power, when executed properly, is part and parcel to golf. And for those contributors who bunt the ball I say start doing more push-ups and eat a few more bowls of Wheaties!!! Please enough whining that all long holes do not have character when the real issue is you don't have the game to play them!

Any course that fails to test the player with a series (no less than 3) of long par-4's (no less than 450 yards), as per my definition above, is a course deficient in ultimately testing the player to the fullest extent possible.

Short par-4's have a clear role in any design, but they serve more of an ancillary role than a primary one. That's what long par-4's are meant to provide and any top rated course has this front and center.


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