[George Pazin]

And the first battle went solidly to Mr. Dye with a crushing knockout in the 2d round. Truth is, this course is too tough for me, since I'm only a mediocre golfer, but I'll endeavor to remain objective in pointing out what I liked & didn't like. I'll also try to answer any questions anyone has, including which restaurant to dine at & which masseuse to request. :-)

General comments:

- Course definitely is not very walkable, not that I'm sure it's even an option. Quite a few long green to tee rides.

- Really interesting greens. Very bold contours in the non-pinnnable areas, while offering very subtle breaks in the vicinity of the holes. I'm an okay putter, usually very solid on the 6-8 footers, but these were tricky little putts on this course.

- Probably too many tough carries for most mid to high handicappers.

- Even though I (correctly) played the white tees, I found these holes to be some of the longest 370-390 yard par 4s I've ever played. Don't know if it was the weather(45-50 degrees at 8 am tee time, warming up to about 65 by end of round), the wind(mostly 15-20 mph, occasionally gusting upwards), or the very wet conditions(couldn't tell if it was course setup or morning fall dew - I suspect a little of both).

- Most greens were open to running the shot in, but, again, damp conditions pretty much prevented this.

- Course seemed to fit the land pretty well, though my limited experience with golf courses in general might preclude my commenting on this aspect of the design.

- Woo hoo!! 18 was NOT a long cape par 4.

[George Pazin]

Holes that I liked:

#1(299white/322back yard par 4) - I loved the opener. Looking at it in the yardage guide the night before had me expecting an easy opener, since it measures only 299 yards from the white tees(& only 322 back). Instead, when I stepped up to the tee, I was confronted with a carry that looked to be about 200 yards to a plateau fairway, with the entire right side being a dramatic drop off to bunkers lining the fairway. The carry must have only been about 130-150(I didn't check it with the GPS cart ). A 4 iron tee shot left me in the center of the fairway hitting a wedge with the ball a little below my feet. Of course, my wedge leaked right, & I had to chop out of thick rough while standing on an extremely steep hillside maybe 15 below green level. Popped out, hit the green, ran off the front, chipped back & one putted for a bogey opener. All in all, one of the cooler 300 yard holes I've ever played.

#3 (184w/219b par 3) - I really liked this hole, & not just because my towering 7 iron flew straight at & over the flag, leaving me with a 10 footer for birdie(that never even threatened the hole). What I really liked was that my playing companion(a stranger from Chatsford, PA that I got randomly paired up with) hit his shot pin high 25 feet left of the green & was left with a really difficult chip shot, across a bold ridge. He did well to get it within about 10 feet of the hole, which was well up front.

#7 (134w/173b yard par 3) - Huge green for a relatively short hole. Somehow managed to miss the green with my 9 iron, left me chipping out of thick rough, onto a green with a really big slope away from me. I suspect if you were playing the back tees, you could really use this slope to sling your tee shot toward the hole. What I didn't like about this hole was that for my partner & I it provided infinite putting. The slope was too strong for the combination of slope & our playing skills. I would like to see some better players playing this green.

#8 - (495w/496b yard par 5) - Tough tee shot, looking right at a carry of maybe 200 yards over an ocean of 3 foot tall grass if you play toward the hole. Even the shortest carry looked to be at least 150(sorry, forgot to check GPS again!). The fairway movement, with relatively large waves of fairway, made all the shots on this hole interesting.

[George Pazin]

(Almost done.)

#10 - (392w/432b par 4) - Tough carry to open the back nine. My best drive of the day carried a bunker on the right side, the far end of which is marked 225 from the white tees. A little hill on the back side of the bunker kicked me forward(I'm assuming), leaving my with a wedge into the green. The ball was a little above my feet, so I tried to play just front right of the green, to take it off the slope & toward the hole, which was way up front. Alas, the ball went right where I aimed it, & didn't come off the slope at all. My playing partner putted from about 3 feet outside me, both of us off the green. He deftly judged the speed, left it maybe 3 inches short of the hole. I used his read to leave mine maybe 8 feet short. :-(

#11 (531w/565b par 5) - Semi blind tee shot if you try to draw it left up the fairway. I opted to pull mine way left, couldn't find it in the super thick rough. Still, again cool fairway movement made this hole intersting. Also, there is a really great closely mowed chipping area left & long of this green.

Didn't really enjoy much beyone the 11th, probably due to the fact the my already mediocre game really collapsed. I'll blame it on lack of sleep, though those of you who met me in Philly know the truth. I did think #13 is probably a pretty cool short par 4(344w/362b). Pin was again way up front, there is a deep pot bunker(sort of) gaurading the front of the green. Really wet conditions here prevented me from executing the shot I wanted, I got frustrated & limped home the last half dozen holes.

All in all, I liked the course, but it was a little too tough for me to really consider it fun. Maybe next year I'll be more up to the challenge.

Sorry I don't have any photos - I was too embarrased by my poor play to slow things down any more than I already did. Even so, we were the first group out & made it round in about 2:50. GPS timecheck thingey had us 103 minutes ahead of pace!

[Matt_Ward]

George:

How would you rate Mystic to other courses you have played in Western Pennsy and the immediate area of other states you have played.

I have already posted my top ten for Pennsy and have Mystic within my personal top five. What do you think?

[Ben C. Dewar]

I played Mystic Rock three times this spring, having played the Pete GC the day before, I was a bit underwhelmed.

A few holes which lacked interest, in particular five and six.

I did like 2, 3, 8, 9, 11, 13 and 16.

11 from the tips makes that tee shot a challenging one and the hole really much better.

The par threes struck me as a little similar, except 3, which was solid.

George, I would suggest that you see some of his other work (which I think is generally superior.)  Charlie mentioned the Pete Dye GC, I think this is a super golf course and not too far away at all from Nemacolin.
Regards

[Matt_Ward]

No doubt Pete Dye GC in Bridgeport, WVA is a better designed course than Mystic.

Quick question to Charlie & Ben -- did you play the course from the middle or championship markers? And, if you played the middle positions would your position on the course possible change if played from the tips???

Regards,

[Ben C. Dewar]

Matt,
I played Mystic from the tips all three times.  I think that from the middle tees, such holes as 11 would be less interesting.

If you were talking about PDGC we played 36 there and played from the tips.

I liked MR, I played it in a busy 9 days of golf and it was sandwiched between Pete Dye GC and Oakmont, so I think that is why it did not stand out.

A solid golf course, but not my favourite Dye work.  I know he worked hard and spent a fortune, but Matt didn't you feel some holes were duds?
Ben

[George Pazin]

Charlie -

I wish you had been there - I would really like to see how a better player would fare. Carries off the tee for me are like a roll of the dice. 30 minutes before hitting my tee shots on #2, I was hitting my driver solid on the range, carrrying it just past the 250 flag & bouncing it to the fence at the end of the range, probably 10-20 yards past. And yet, I still managed to top 2 tee shots into the rocky ravine in front of the tee on #2. Maybe if we get some warmer temps in the upcoming weeks, we could squeeze in a round at Mystic - off season rates aren't too bad for me.

Ben -

I certainly I hope I do get to play many more Pete Dye courses, but I did enjoy this one, in spite of my pathetic showing. 5 & 6 were kind of boring(even if 6 did yield my only birdie of the day) & I didn't think 2 or 4 were that great either. But I did enjoy many of the other holes. One thing is for sure - the course pretty much always demanded my attention.

Matt -

It's a little hard for me to rank courses - I've only been playing for about 5 years & mostly I play cheap public courses north of the 'Burgh. Having said that, I would place Mystic Rock well ahead of the other courses in western PA that I've played, with Quicksilver a clear & distinct 2nd as well. My other courses are ones I'm guessing no one on this board has heard of, let alone played. Hopefully, I'll be playing Allegheny Country Club sometime soon, so I'll have at least one well known course to serve as a sort of frame of reference. I've walked Nevillewood 3 times during the Mario Lemieux Celebrity Tourney &, while it certainly appears perfectly groomed in an Augusta-like fashion, it doesn't look much more appealing to me than other local cheapies like Deer Run, a Ron Forse effort about 45 minutes north of downtown.

It was interesting for me to read in the Lehigh thread about how Mystic Rock was built on severe terrain. With the bulk of my playing experience in Pittsburgh, I consider this type of terrain to be standard for a golf course! :-) It certainly doesn't seem much if any more severe than Inniscrone or Lehigh. I didn't think the course felt forced at all, except for maybe some of the water holes. I did feel like the course presented a much sterner test than either Inniscrone or Lehigh, but not necessarily in a good way. Mostly it was due to very thick rough & more opportunities for lost balls.

[Matt_Ward]

Ben:

Thanks for the comments.

I believe Mystic to be among Pennsy's best courses -- I rate it among the top five!

You had the opportunity to play two even better courses -- Oakmont and PDGC.

The terrain is tough no doubt at Mystic, but the approach shots you play must be consistently positioned on all the greens. When you had the extra length from the back tees the demands are really steady.

I like the rolling terrain even if others consider it severe. Hell, Lehigh and a few others in Pennsy would be considered in a similar fashion to many people.

I also believe the course is tough (75 CR and 146 slope) enough for the better player and provides options for the high handicap player.

I'd be very curious if any of you gentlemen had comments on the playability apsect of the course for all types of players. Sometimes this becomes an issue for Pete Dye designs.

Regards,

[Ben C. Dewar]

Matt,
You beat me to it, I think that is the genuis of the course that I have not seen in too many Dye courses.  PGA West is too difficult from the appropriate tees except for women.
MR is a great test (the one day we played it in the rain and the 6,800 yards played even longer.  I went back and looked through my photos, I still think that 5 and 6 are indifferent holes, for five to be this short it should be more demanding, but if you hit a fade of the tee you will mid to long iron in.
I did not mention the seventh though, and I thought it is a solid par three with an interesting green, somehow in my memory there was water on this hole (there is not.)  The two par threes on the back nine are decent, but similar, 175ish water on the left.  Here is a picture of the 7th.

The ninth is another hole is a good par four that I did not give much credit to.  I liked this hole, a good demand on the drive and nice approach.

Other pictures:

The 11th.

The 12th.

The 14th, how hard is this hole into the wind.

[Matt_Ward]

Ben & Charlie:

Great pictures!

Can either of you gentlemen comments on how you rank Mystic in connection to other courses you have played in Pennsy -- even if the amount of courses you have played is leans more to Western PA???

Thanks.

I have played plenty in the Keystone State and see it as one of the top five in the state. Am I out in LA LA LAND?

Regards,

[Ben C. Dewar]

Matt,
My golf in W. PA is very limited.  I played Oakmont, Oakmont East and the two courses up at Nemacolin.

So I am not the person to help you with that.

I liked MR a lot, but I would not put it in my top fav. Dye courses, or probably even top ten.  Where would you put it alongside other Dye courses you have played?

Glad you liked the pictures.
Regards

[Mike_Cirba]

Ah yes...it's all coming back to me now.

Thanks for the pictures, Ben.  I was seeing boulders in my sleep for days after playing there, and you've brought back the painful reminder.  

I also have memories of balls bouncing 60 feet into the air, direction indeterminate.  

If you look up the term "boulder strewn" in Funk & Wagnalls, you'll find a picture of Mystic Rock.  

[Mike Touscany]

Played the Rock earlier this Summer.  Upon finishing, I thought I would like to have another crack at her.  

With the exception of the 11th where my ball came to rest about a foot from a sizable Copperhead (yikes).  Like George, I gave up on a good score around hole 9 or 10.  

At $150/round, my party agreed it was a nice $75 golf course.

[JerryK]

I was wondering if anyone else felt that there was a strong similarity between Mystic Rock and Bulle Rock beyond the simple fact that they are both Dye courses? The topography was different as the rock outcroppings are surely unique to MR, but I got a very strong feeling when I was looking at the holes as they were shaped and routed that Dye was trying to do what he did at MR when he was designing Bulle Rock. What do you think?

[Matt_Ward]

I am a big fan of Pete Dye and sometimes that runs counter to those on GCA who always seem to prefer the old style classic courses.

I would not rate Mystic in my top ten Pete Dye courses but I was very impressed (minus the rocks that Mike mentioned!) that the course can permit both the low and high handicap player to enjoy the course.

You must hit your iron shots accurately throughout the round and your driver better have some pop on the long par-4's. What a contrast between the short 1st and the long 2nd.

I just think the course gets "lost" because it's 70 miles southeast of Pittsburgh and somewhat off the beaten trail.

Top Ten Pete Dye Designs (in no specific order)

The Golf Club
The Ocean Course (SC)
Harbour Town
Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
The Honors Course
Lost Canyons / Sky Course
Pete Dye GC
Whistling Straits / Straits
Blackwolf Run (River)
Crooked Stick

Bulle Rock just misses out as does Long Cove in SC. I'd put Mystic probably around 15th among the best Dyes I've seen, but I'll say it again for Pennsy I think it's one of the five best I've played in the state. FYI -- I'm talking about playing the course from the tips!

Regards,

[George Pazin]

Mike Cirba -

I played a course in Vegas 6 weeks ago that makes MR look absolutely devoid of rocks. Picture everywhere that there is rough &/or trees, there are instead, vast seas of rocks, ranging from gravel size to medium size, & you have Dragon Ridge. My least pleasureable experience on a golf course, until I played the Vertigo Club(known to most as Wolf Creek) about an hour north of Vegas, not a place to play if you have a fear of heights. Apparently mine is worse than I realized.

Matt -

If you managed to slog through my first 3 posts, you probably noticed that I think playability is a real issue for MR. I've played with enough hackers on Saturday morning at my local muni to know that almost anyone who's not a consistent 80s golfer would struggle on a course like this. Long carries + penal rough + water & rocks that eat up poor shots = borderline unplayable for mid to high handicappers. If I'm on a course that requires one to drive in the fairway, I like to drop down to a 3 or 4 iron off the tee to keep it in play. Throw in a 170-200 yard carry off the tee, & there isn't much room for error. It's not that I can't hit that shot, I just can't do it consistently(or obviously I would be a lower handicap ).

[T_MacWood]

Matt
It is odd that you would place Long Cove in the top 50 in the USA, but not in Dye's top 10 -- same with TPC.

[Craig_Rokke]

I'm a pretty big Dye fan, having enjoyed
"Dientes del Perro" and the Ocean Course.

With regard to the boulder-strewn landscape
at Mystic, you'd be surprised to hear
that there are many more buried beneath the fairways than not. In fact, if Dye had his
way, the course would not even exist where it's located. Dye very much wanted to position the course in the valley below. But owner, Joe Hardy, insisted on blasting away the mountainside to put the course there.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom MacWood: Thanks for your comments on my placement of Dye courses. I erred in my selection choices.

I would most certainly include Long Cove and TPC / Sawgrass in my top ten Dye listing. I would then bump in the "just misses" category Crooked Stick and Lost Canyons / Sky Course. Also add PGA Stadium in the just misses category as well.

I stilll believe Mystic Rock is vastly underrated in the Pennsy golf scene. Too many people opt for the classic designs such as Pittsburgh Field Club and Fox Chapel,  to name just two since I consider Oakmont the best course in the state, which are both wonderful designs, but I see Mystic as being a better all around test with a much wider assortment of holes and different putting surfaces that constantly keep the player on his toes throughout the round.

Craig:

Given what you know about the site how do you assess the course's standing among other more notable Pittsburgh area courses?

Regards,

[Craig_Rokke]

I've never played the course, Matt.

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