[Mike Ventola]

I am looking for some input on golf courses by Devereux Emmet that remain relatively unchanged and how they play.  It seems to me that most of his designs are no longer in existence (Vanderbilt Estate, Hog Back Mountain, Santiago Cuba, Charles Schwab Estate, Bahamas CC, etc.) or have been changed dramatically (Garden City).  
I know Garden City has some of the best soil in the world for growing grass and his first design was originally very successful because of the great turf.  One thesis I put forth is that he attempted to design in the same manner (very low cost) and was unsuccessful because the turf was never as good.  It doesn’t seem that he understood turf or put any thought into growing grass like McDonald, Colt, Ross, or Crump.  

An alternative hypothesis was that he was not a very skilled designer.  Any thoughts?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

How has GCGC been changed dramatically ?

[T_MacWood]

Mike
I've never understood that story about Emmet searching his entire career for soil similar to GCGC -- I don't get it, it doesn't make sense. Maybe he did and was disapointed, but on the other hand he was a prolific designer and I don't believe he would have considered his career a disapointment. All the golf architects of his era had their work altered and/or altogether lost, he may have been hit harder due to the numder of courses he built very close to NYC. Another reason, through out his career he was very fond of cross-bunkers and they fell out of favor.

Pat
What changes did Travis make to GCGC? Would you consider those changes siginificant?

[Mike Ventola]

As I understand it Walter Travis took up the sod and re-contoured most of the greens at GCGC.  I do not think Emmett was looking for great soil, I don’t think he understood why GCGC was so good however I think he tried to copy it again and again on sites that were not as good.  

I have been told that GCGC is 12 to 23 feet of fine greens mix over gravel and Travis’s pots were dug as deep as possible until they hit the gravel.  

[SPDB]

Did Emmet or Travis do New Haven C.C.? Anyone played this track? interesting routing which produces 34-37 nines.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

How about McGregor Links in Saratoga Springs, NY.  I don't know how much it has been altered over the years but it was a D.E. originally.  I found it to be an interesting course although it has been a number of years ago, and my exact recollection is foggy.  Then again it could have been the beers I had there that caused the fog.  I remember some quirky holes, I only had a chance to play one side (front I believe), it was noteworthy in that it ended with a par three.  Finishing in plain view of the clubhouse.

I enjoyed the course, and the membership was wonderful as well.  Some real hardcore golfers and beer drinkers in a great pub atmosphere in the clubhouse.  As I recall I gazed longingly through the bottom of many beer glasses that night at a wonderful large picture of Royal Dornoch abloom in yellow gorse.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone who knows how much this track has been altered over the years.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Mike,
If you are on Long Island, check out Huntington Country Club. The combination of some really nice remaining Emmet features combined with a modern restoration/re-creation of numerous Emmet features, makes it a must see for Emmet fans. The longtime asst. super, Myles McLaughlin, has done the work and it's super. Emmet's Road Hole green, on the long par-5 7th here, is very cool.
Geoff

[GeoffreyC]

SPDB

New Haven CC is a Willie Park Jr. design.  In fact, the routing is nothing special at all with far too many holes running parallel to one another separated by a single row of trees. The property is quite severe in places and Park did a nice job of getting around and over the hills but there is a bit too much intimacy of holes routed on top of one another to suit my taste. The greens are fun to putt and the conditioning is superb.  

[GeoffreyC]

If you want to study a relatively untouched Dev Emmet course go to Wee Burn CC in Darian CT.  We had a discussion about this course last summer in August I believe. Emmet built wonderful greens that frequently featured little (and sometimes not so little) puffs or mounds in them that really affect the putting and strategy in approaching them form the fairway.  He always liked to include at least one really long par 3 and par 4 even though the total yardage of his courses was somewhat short.  I like this variety.

[Daniel_Wexler]

Lacking the time at present to form a more coherent response, I will take a necessary shortcut and quote myself:

"Yet while Emmet’s existing layouts may run shorter, they tend to offer something patently lacking in longer modern courses: variety.
 Indeed, while Emmet was well-established long before such trend-setters as Dr. Alister MacKenzie and George Thomas highlighted that elusive commodity atop their written commandments on sound design, he practiced it comprehensively.  Just a brief look at most any Emmet layout reveals a full running of the gamut, from tiny pitch-shot par threes to those requiring drivers; drive-and-pitch par fours and others requiring two wooden shots; and almost always at least one enormous par five stretching closer to 600 yards than 550.  It was a wonderful style of design from a playing perspective, one that truly required usage of the proverbial 'every club in the bag.'"

The guy was strategic, very quirky and GOOD.

[Craig_Rokke]

Mike-
The aformentioned Schwab Estate course does still exist (Immergrun)but I do wish there was more Emmet to play in PA because the
courses I have seen are interesting, and
they are varied. It seems like Emmet was
very in with the estate golf course crowd.

[ForkaB]

I grew up in Darien and looped at Wee Burn one summer.  It's a very good and tidy course marred only by a very dull 1st hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How much of the original Seawane remains ?

[Mike_Trenham]

Headed out on a 4 day trip tommorrow to play some older course in Western PA and Cleaveland.  On a lark we are playing two Devereux Emmet 9-holes North of Pittsburgh.  Appear to be fairly short and hopefully untouched.  I will report back next week.

McGregor Links is not untouched as I belive a number of water hazards have been added over the years.  But it is certainly a golfers club.

[scott_wood]

best known in upstate ny is the Leatherstocking course at the Otesaga Resort in Cooperstown, a sporty course with several
short distictive holes, icluding a par 5 cape finishing hole whose tee is 75 yards INTO the lake! Leatherstocking plays annually for The Devereaux Emmet Cup with McGregor, Schuyler Meadows, Mohawk, Edison ,and i believe Mechanicville, an Albany area 9 holer

[Mike Ventola]

New Hypothesis:
Perhaps Dapper Devereux Emmet was a casualty of his own success.
He constructed courses for some of the richest and mist eccentric clients on the face of the earth.  They or their Heir’s had the money and inclination to change and so they did.
At GCGC Travis joined presumably because he liked the design then wrote extensively on what was wrong with it……  until he changed it.

Is that the fate of all golf courses in times of prosperity?
Perhaps a pull back on renovation will save some courses in styles that are out of vogue.
The Arthur Hill renovation of the Cardinal outside nine at the Country Club of North Carolina strikes me as the pendulum swinging to the other extreme.  The removal of the only true RTJ work near Pinehurst.  Even its critics must give historic merit to nine holes created by the quintessential American architect when he was at the peak of his career, big, bold and American.  

Will minimalism wipe out the audacious larger than man features of many modern designs?

Which golf courses are the most subject to fashion trends?

[Mike_Cirba]

One of the best, and most untouched, Emmett courses exists as a public links on Long Island; the Red course at Eisenhower Park.

Formerly the #4 course at Salisbury Country Club, it hosted the PGA Championship way back when won by Hagen.  

The 1st & 18th holes are RTJ Sr., but almost all of the rest remains intact.  Despite the slow play and spotty conditions, there are a number of excellent holes that remain and one can get a good sense of the strategic golfing values that Emmett found important.

If he did anything lasting at Garden City, (which he clearly does...i.e. green sites, green flows, routing), then his legacy is complete based on that course alone.

[LouisM]

In reference to Geoffrey C's derogatory comments on New Haven CC.....I'd like to make a few points:

- I really hope this Geoffrey C is not the world renown architect of CT public courses..comparing those works to NHCC is like comparing a VW to a BMW

- NHCC happens to have the best greens in the state of CT..hands down...Stanwich and Hartford a close 2nd

- the reference that the holes are right on top of each other is BS...there is plenty of room at NHCC (I guess the 9th and 18th at southern hills would make Geoffrey pop off too)

- the only legitimate complaint about my course is the driving range (too short for woods)...when the fairways and greens are running fast it proves to be one of the sternest tests in the state and Northeast

[GeoffreyC]

LouisM

Where did I say anything derogatory about New Haven CC? In fact, you are the one making derogatory remarks thinking I'm Geoffrey Cornish! I am not Cornish but that's no reason to insult him if that was his opinion. NHCC is a nice course for the members.  I'm sure that it serves your needs very well as it's a fun round of golf but its an average course at best. Louis, please post for us the SPECIFIC architectural merits of NHCC by describing each of the holes.

The worst that I said was that I didn't like the routing with all the parallel running holes separated by a row of trees.  Louis, how many of the holes at NHCC run in parallel?? Please post a routing plan for us to look at.

I said that the greens are fun to putt and in superb shape.  What do you want.  However, to remotely think they are the best set of greens in the state is absurd especially given how close your course is to the Yale course which has some of the best greens in the world yet alone the state of Connecticut!

New Haven CC is not remotely a candidate for best in state lists yet alone national lists.  I give it a 4 on the Doak scale and I stand by that number.

[TEPaul]

Mike Ventola:

Wow, I think you're making a point I've never seen on this website and that is that courses and architectural styles can be very different and should be seen as such and left as such. You reference a course by RTJ (that was changed) as big, bold and American!

I couldn't agree more if that's what you're saying and I've even said I think it's a shame that Desmond Muirhead's Stone Harbor was ever toned down!

Part of the fascination of golf architecture to me is in its differences and there is a large spectrum and it should remain so. I admit I might prefer the style that seems popular on this site and I don't think it should be changed by the stewards who think big bold and American or whatever the latest fad might be. That sure did happen though in the last 50 or so years and it should stop.

I don't agree either with those on here who think the styles that are popular on here should sweep the world. The best that could happen, in my opinion, is that eventually people would come to understand the differences and distinctions and keep the courses that way!

Great point, if that's what you were saying!

[LouisM]

Being a member at Yale also...I respectfully disagree about the greens issue.  If Yale was kept in tip-top shape they would still fall short...and they are far from tip-top (outrageous play and insufficient greens keeping has kept the greens from being great for decades)

Getting back to NHCC....I am in no way suggesting it is a top 100 course, but there are many elements that make it a definite top 5 in the state of CT

- very good course conditioning
- excellent greens (always roll great)
- multiple difficult pin positions per green
- ability to play a links game on most of the holes
- no tee times

And this comment that it "is a nice course for the members" is a bunch of crap.  It is a mighty challenge for the scratch golfer.  If the wind blows...mid-70's is a hell of a score.

I am not bad mouthing other private courses in CT....but NHCC can hold its own against any other course in CT.

[Patrick_Mucci]

New Haven CC is a classic Willie Park Jr. course, very challenging, with perhaps some of the best greens in the state of CT. So for any of you would be golfers out there, if you can muster your way on to NHCC, do it...because you won't regret it!

[Patrick_Mucci]

The above post is not mine.

I have never played NHCC.

It's bad enough when people post anonymously, but when they post under someone elses name, it shows a complete lack of character and integrity !

[Craig_Rokke]

Patrick-
This stealthy master of disguises is assuming all kinds of identities on other threads, even answering his own questions.

[GeoffreyC]

Louis M

I asked you a couple of very specific questions about the routing of NHCC and the ARCHITECTURAL merits of individual holes.

You answered by telling us that NHCC is one of the best in the state because

1- there are no tee times
2- excellent greens that roll well
3- good conditioning
4- multiple difficult pin positions
5- links conditions

I will not argue with you on any point except #5. When I played there the conditions were a bit too lush to play the ground game very much but I can see the POTENTIAL to do so on many holes. I'm sure Willie Park designed it with the ground game in mind.

You think the greens at NHCC are better than Yale's even without taking conditioning into account (you state "If Yale was kept in tip-top shape they would still fall short").  That's one of the more outrageous statments I've heard on GCA.  I don't think you will get too many here to agree with that one!

I'm glad that you are happy there and you can find nothing to complain about except the driving range.  Enjoy it often.

Please if you wish to continue this discussion focus on the architecture.  Please post the routing plan for NHCC and the architectural merits of individual holes.

You have over reacted to my comments which were largely positive.  Reread my original post. Connecticut is an anomaly in the Northeast as there are fewer top notch courses then in CT then about any other state in the area.  However, calling NHCC at top 5 is still a big stretch.

Cheers

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