[Peter Galea]

Where?
If we can, let's forget ratings, price, hotel, cartpath, ocean and anything not pure golf.
Please tell me where the weak holes are and what makes them so. Perhaps the next time I'm there I will look with "new" eyes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

I'm with you.

I'm interested in knowing what holes are weak too ?

[ed_getka]

I don't think much of #7, although I only played it once and it wasn't very windy. Its purely a distance control shot, the bunkers are easily negotiated, so judging the wind is the only problem presented.
#15 is an indifferent hole IMO. Straightaway tee shot, slightly downhill approach to a tilted green, but generally not demanding, although its a nice respite before the closing holes. Overall I love the course (especially when I exclude the astronomical green fee, the unavailability of tee times, the slowness of play, and the arrogance of the staff).
#8 approach shot is one of the great thrills in golf.

[JSS]

I'll state the obvious for argument sake.

You have 6 holes (33% of the course) that is nothing special. They are, 1,2,3,11,12 and 13.  Sure, you can make a number on any of those holes if you really mess up but they are not what anyone would call world class golf holes.

Then you have (with some people, like Ed's comments) questionable holes like #4 and #7 which are on the ocean but not spectacular like 8, 9 & 10.

So the question is how can Golf Digest rank it #1 and Golf Magazine rank it #2 when you have so many questionable holes?  They have 3 and maybe 5 of the greatest holes in the world but does that warrant the lofty ratings?

[Peter Galea]

It seems to me that when doing "match play" comparisons and posting opinions of holes the focus is on the shots with clubs of loft.
Since half the game is played on the putting green, I say we delve a little deeper. This is where Pebble shines. There are no indifferent greens. Even subtle greens demand your full attention when standing over a putt. The greens are small and require pinpoint shots to give the best chance for making a putt. Care to comment on this facet of the course?
For your viewing pleasure #17 green.

[ed_getka]

Pete,
I agree that the small greens are what makes the course the test it is. Having only played the course once I can't really speak to the subtlties of the surfaces. #13 is a hole I might have considered a weaker hole, but the green is so demanding that the hole cannot be taken for granted.
If none of the greens are indifferent, what about #7 green makes it good in your opinion. I am asking this in the spirit of learning, not to challenge your assertions, given the fact I've played the course only once. I've walked it a least a dozen times when I volunteered for the last two Opens there. Also, how would you describe the strategy and demands of #15. Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JSS,

Have you played Pebble Beach from the BACK BACK tees ?

If so, how do you rate # 2 and # 3 as so so holes.

# 4 is a wonderful short par 4, and # 7 is a great short par 3.  

With any kind of breeze, which is typical of a seaside course, the value of all of these holes is dramatically elevated.

What courses that you have played do you think are better ?

[Matt_Ward]

Pete and Pat have covered this, but I have to add my own comments. PB has some of the toughest greens to hit with iron play. Add wind velocity and you have your hands full!!!

Not only are the greens small but the pitch and roll of them is no less demanding -- especially when you miss a green and need to get "up and down."

Ed, trust me, play the 7th in anything more than a slight breeze and you will know the meaning of fear!

The 13th green is an absolute terror if you put your approach in the wrong spot. I've seen good players routinely three putt the hole!

PB gets plenty of TV time and I guess there will always be those who believe the course is overrated. As a GD rater, I would not place the course in the #1 position, my vote would be for Shinnecock Hills, but PB has been thoroughly tested at the highest levels of competition and it continues to be a true identifier of champions (Nicklaus, Watson, Woods).

Are there holes at PB which give the player an opening to score? Yes, and pity the player who does not take advantage of them.

Those making the case against PB should state what tees they played the course. Playing from the middle tees is a limited version of the total course. For a course that measures under 6,800 yards from the tips, PB has maintained its lofty standing even with the advances of technology.

Yes, it's possible for good players to take advantage (to wit Gil Morgan / 1992 Open) but when conditions change the demand sof PB become quite clear and potentially devestating. Watch a tape of the '72 Open and you will see the Golden Bear have to use all of his skills in handling the windy layout that final Sunday!

When people say Pebble Beach is weak it's like saying Yankee Stadium is just an ordinary ballfield! That's not the case today or tomorrow.

Regards,

[Peter Galea]

Ed,
The seventh green was redone in the mid to late 80's. Before the redo it was bowl shaped moreso than #4. Bunkers were fearsome. I paced the green it was 13 paces front to back and 7 from side to side. Bunkers were lowered and the putting surface expanded. It is still not flat.
Standing over a putt on that green, knowing what you've done on the previous 6 and what you're about to face will put major doubt into a straight 3 footer.

[Bob_Huntley]

I agree with Patrick, playing #'s 3 and 4  under tournament conditions caan give you fits. A slight error in judgement from the 3rd fairway or rough, can have you hitting the back of the green and bouncing out of bounds. The fourth is a long iron off the tee and probably the smallest and most severely sloped green on the course. The bunkering here is particularly good.

As for the remark about a tree on # 18  being out of place on a links course, is really of no import, PB is not a links course and never has been.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

Two points:

I don't recall anyone saying Pebble Beach is "weak". Suggesting a course has weaknesses, doesn't mean the course is "weak".  

I'm not worried about the very small minority of golfers playing Pebble Beach from the tips.  Suggesting that those playing from the middle tees (perhaps 95-99% of all players) experience a "limited version of the total course" sounds an awful lot like you agree the course DOES have weaknesses.

[kilfara]

To reiterate a point made in the other thread: I think you'd have to look long and hard to find ANYONE who would rank Pebble outside of the Top 25 courses in the US or give it less than an 8 Doak Rating. What we're trying to do, however, is determine whether Pebble should be no. 1 or closer to no. 25, or get a rating of 10 vs. an 8. "Weak" is an entirely relative term.

Matt, how much weight do you propose we give to the fact that Nicklaus, Watson and Woods won the US Open at Pebble? Isn't "coincidence" a possible explanation? All three golfers were on top of their game in those respective weeks; it's quite possible that they would have won almost anywhere else as well, isn't it? And how else could you explain that Mark O'Meara won 5 Crosby/AT&Ts at Pebble apart from coincidence? Or that Carnoustie (an outstanding test of tournament golf, surely) produced a playoff between Van de Velde, Leonard and Lawrie? These things happen; to use them as justification for one's rating of a golf course is a little bit specious. In my very humble opinion, of course.  

Cheers,
Darren

[GeoffreyC]

I've played Pebble Beach about ten (10) times.  The first for $25 in 1976 to last about ten years later when the bill went up to $175.  Given the current fee, I will not pay to play there again.  I would be thrilled to play again on someone elses account. Pebble will never be the #1 course in the world.  It has weaknesses but it is still one of the wonders of the golf world.

The first hole is not especially strong but it is not an easy approach shot. As Pete Galea aptly said, the greens are never easy to putt. I hardly remember ever having a straight putt at Pebble.

The second as a 510 yard par 5 is not bad either.  Certainly not world class but only the strongest players can overpower it.

The third hole is a wonderful dogleg left where you can cut off what you dare off the tee and when the wind is blowing off the ocean the second requires great control of trajectory and distance.

I think 4 is a wonderful short par 4 and I even liked the old 5th hole if only as a preview to the great walk to the 6th tee.

Six is a thrilling par 5 and nothing more need be said about 7-10.

Number 11 is under rated in my opinion only because it follows the ocean holes. It is an uphill hole requiring a precise uphill 2nd shot to an angled green where again you must take the wind into account.  Don't get above the hole.

12 is the weakes hole on the course.  It requires a shot (long, high and softly landing) that most players don't have.  Others (I forget who at the moment) suggested it would be an excellent spot for a redan/redan-like hole).  Anything would be better than the current hole.

13 - weak but its a wickedly tough green to putt and therefore never a routine par.

14- Strong par 5. Don't miss a shot especially the third into the green.  Even on the lower level (right side) of the green, I've had 25 foot putts with 20 feet of break!

15- 2nd weakest hole.  Get rid of those horrible new fairway bunkers on the right!

16- again an under rated hole.  This is perhaps the best inland hole on the course. The 2nd shot into that green complex is fantastic.

17- over rated but again the wind is always a factor.  I'd like to see the hole restored to the condition shown in Geoff's book.

18- I agree totally with Pat Mucci's assessment.  I will trade golf games with anyone who thinks that hole can be played as a methodical (read= easy) three shot, two putt par.

Pebble perhaps has been put into too much of a cult position.  Its a great course with some weaknesses.  I wouldn't know how to improve it other than to change #12.

[Gib_Papazian]

I have never been able to square in my mind how anyone can call #3 "weak" from ANY tee.

Having been fortunate to play Pebble at least 50 times over 28 years, I think that  might be the toughest driving hole on the golf course.

Like any good "Cape" hole, the closer you can keep your ball to the edge of the hazard, the better the approach angle. That requires a careful draw to just the right spot, even from the white tee. A bit too far left and assuming you find the ball in the barranca, all that is left is a humiliating little pitch back to the fairway.

Chicken out and blow it to the back edge of the fairway off the tee - or especially in the rough - and the approach is over a problematic bunker to a hard green sloping slightly away. Plus, the putting surface is always very firm.

Hit the 2nd shot one tick too far and the O.B. sneaks up at the back of the green. Pull it just a bit off the hillside (remember, the ball is above your feet) and the deep left bunker snatches it because the angle is oriented away from the most spacious part of the putting surface.

In a tournament, I'll take my four and be happy.      

[Peter Galea]

Tim, calling some holes "indifferent" or "nothing special" implies weak to me. Maybe I read to much into it. I posted the topic to get opinions of where the weakness lies. I also asked to look at the putting surfaces. I don't "get" 13 and 15 being "less than" when all will concur that the greens are dynamic. Let's consider the whole package, not just the "path" to get there.

[herrstein@aol.com]

"let's forget ratings, price, hotel, cartpath, ocean and anything not pure golf."
I always try to do this in the course of evaluating the architectural merits of a course, which is not in accordance with what some people do, as I fully understand.
I have addressed my assessment of Pebble's 18 in the other thread on this topic.
To reply to some of the questions about from whence I make my judgments of the course:
I have played it about 20 times over the past 7 years, 15 or 16 of those times from "the plates," as the locals call the back tee markers (I learned this at Pebble. I hadn't ever heard that term before.).
I think every course has to be evaluated on the prevailing weather, which in my experience has been everything from calm and 75 degrees to blowing 60 mph and spitting chunks of ice (one of the most fun rounds I ever played, until #10 when they called us off the course).
When the weather is calm, the fisrt 7 holes are easily had.
When the wind is blowing hard, it can be brutally difficult. I had to hit driver, three wood on #9 and #10, consecutively, failing to reach the green, one day after I had hit driver wedge to both of them.
I once played in a group of two foursomes on a calm day, scratch amateurs, when the worst score was 75 and there were two 69s (One of them mine! ;-)).
The day it was blowing so hard I shot 40 on the front and frankly hit the ball much better than the day I shot 69 (33 on the front). I hit a 7 iron to #7, one of the most memorable shots I have ever hit in my life. I had just hit driver, 2 iron, 5 iron to #6, a hole I had reached in two the day before. The hole was next to unplayable.
I think Pebble is one of the all time greats- don't get me wrong. But put it in Kansas on the same terrain, and it's definitely not top fifty.

[Dorothy]

What's wrong with Kansas?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Stein,

To make the comparison fair, dump every course in the middle of Kansas, and tell me Pebble Beach wouldn't be in the top 50.

Not to make you post a long response, could you please list those 50 courses you think are better than Pebble.

To et. al,

# 2 BACK tee, is short of the 1st green, which means you have to walk back toward the 1st too to get to the back tee at # 2.
This brings the bunkers and barranca more into play.

On # 3 back tee, it's back by the road, close to the guard rail making the carry to the left side of the fairway more onerous.

Almost every green site is terrific.

# 12 and # 13 are good holes, I'd like to know how they are considered weak or average.

[Mark_Fine]

Pebble Beach doesn't have a "weak" hole in the 18 period.  If anyone thinks otherwise, either their definition of "weak" is much different than mine, or they haven't really looked hard enough or played there enough to know better.  Sure some are much better than others, but that doesn't make the lesser ones "weak".  Every hole has something interesting or clever about it!

[aclayman]

Ed- Let me share my experiences about the two holes that you may perceive as weak.
The 7th is not an easy iron shot anymore than the ease needed to strike any iron shot. Some of the subtle nuances that the 7th provides is a teeing ground which lines up the player towards the left bunker. This feature alone, if not taken into consideration, will cause an other on the scorecard, and assuming you hit that bunker, the subsequent shot has nothing but guam or hawaii to get in your line of sight. Then, once your on the green the four corners are where the most undulation is. The center is relatively flat with a slope from back to front. The front of the green slopes away from the tee which causes a shot that hits the front, to bound off the back. The left side is sloped to the center and the right side has a contrary noll that if not played, will gaurantee your chances for more putting.  I hope that these nuances shows you that the hole is not a weak one even in lulled conditions.

15)
This hole has OB on both sides and that baranka and oak trees(left) make for some serious eyecandy with teeth. Now that you've hit the perfect drive you have a downhill lie to the green which usually plays longer than you think. (remember tiger hit pw from 97) if you don't know about its nature to play about 5 yds longer, you are destined to be somewhere near the front which will leave you an uphill putt but its only uphill untill it turns left then it's going down the hill towards the low spot (point lobos) This green has a contrary noll on the front left that will only straighten your putt out not cause it to go right, like you might think. The fact is that wherever that pin is, you must know what the dominant slope is, and that is to the left and then from back to front. While it is a strqaight forward hole by no means should it be considered weak especially after you've just played 14. I used to advise players to grab a power bar, for after the 14th. Especially if they have a stamina problem, just so they can go into the closing holes with some energy and appreciate the beauty before them.

I hope this helps!

[Peter Galea]

  Adam, that was great!

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

PB provides holes in which the player has an opportunity to score low. They are not weak holes because of that. Players failing to shoot low on these holes will inevitably have a much more difficult time when encountering the more demanding ones to follow.

As far as my comment concerning "lesser version" I am speaking to the fact that when players play from forward tee positions they are truly not seeing the entire course as defined by the architect. The carries, the placement of bunkers, the landing areas, all change. Does that have an impact on their comments. I think it does in some instances with certain individuals.

I'll say it again try hitting any of PB's greens when the wind is up and you'll know full square what tough is. Even without wind putting on those small slanted surfaces is never a cinch by any means.

Darren:

Great courses produce great champions. It's possible that Jack, Tom and Tiger could have won anywhere that particular week but PB brought out the best in their respective games. That's not coincidence ... that's fact! Clearly, a plus to PB. Isn't the same thing said about the greatness of The Old Course and the roster of champions it has produced over the years? I guess that must be coincidence as well.

PB is much closer to the top half of the 25 best listing than the bottom. I don't know how many times you have played PB. Too many people are expecting the course to simply "blow them away" with one postcard hole after another (even though the course has quite a few of them as well!) but PB's greatness is in learning about the small qualities that only playing the course countless times can produce.

Very few courses can maintain their position of superstar status but PB does even though it plays slightly more than just 6,700 yards. At that length it tests the greats and those who simply want to venture on its majestic turf from forward tee positions.

If you can please list for me any player or authority in golf today who believes the course is overrated I would be most interested?

Regards,

[kilfara]

Matt, I'll take the issue of "do great golf courses produce great champions?" to a new thread, as it probably deserves one.

As for your last comment/question, one of the express purposes of this website (I think) is to question the conventional wisdom about certain golf courses and golf course architects. Just because 200 Tour pros blunder over a cliff doesn't mean I have to follow them!   (In fact, the LAST person I'd ask to judge a course's greatness is the generic touring professional.) As for "authorities", who counts as one of them? I've written a golf book which is just about to be published for general consumption...do I?   Tom Doak gave Pebble a "9", not a "10", in his book - and proceeded to write, "The two starting holes and those just after the turn have to detract from the overall standing of the course. (The par-3 12th is a real mutt.)" Does that count?

Cheers,
Darren

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

The details you provide concerning the "lessor version" of Pebble Beach seem to only confirm the course isn't so great for the vast majority who play it.

I never heard any talk about the "lessor version" of St Andrews or Shinnecock or Cypress Point or Ballybunion or Merion or Pine Valley or Crystal Downs or Royal County Down...........

[Bob_Huntley]

Darren:

The twelth a real mutt?

Admittedly it is no beauty, but when was the last time you hit it close? The hole requires an exquisitely hit shot just to stay on the green. As you can see I am in love with PB.

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