[RJ_Daley]

I know I am becoming something of a homer, even though I don't live there nor have I yet built a second home there on the property I bought next to the golf course.  I have now been going out to Nebraska for several years in a row.  I play Wild Horse in Gothenburg as many times as I can while there.  I am not the well travelled fellow compared to so many that post here.  I missed Pacific Dunes this year, but will remedy that sometime in coming year.  Yet, I have played some very highly regarded golf courses in recent years...

With all that said, I am ready to be even more bold than I have been before upon playing and studying Wild Horse again last week on my fall trip there and do declare that dollar for dollar in the ratio of design/construction cost; maintenance practices; and community spirit; to Quality Concepts,  Wild Horse is the best golf course in the country.  Place WH next to the Pacific Ocean or Atlantic or Sea around GB&I, or a dunesland next to a great lake and Wild Horse would be in the top 10 in the world in my no longer too humble opinion.  What slight demand that it lacks in distance off tee is made up for at the best set of greens and surrounds (now evolved from grow-in and expert years of conditioning) that I have EVER played, by a large factor.  I think that there is room for a few more back tee positions to possibly be added in near future to even address that small distance concern.  The firm and fast blue fairways are cut to the edge of what I think blues can be maintained and offer perfect lies, and even for this long handicapper with not a huge game off the tee I can whittle down even the 400 yard+ holes to mid and short irons for me.  Moderate to high typical wind for Nebraksa plaayed to all the cardinal directions of design will generally hold any high skill and long tee ball man at bay.  Bunker placement is brilliant and some days certain bunkers that aren't in play are huge factors while a balance through out the golf course renders others in serious play on days when others are not.  The wide fairways with varied contours, turbo ramps in LZs and multiple choice angles into the greens are infinite.   The greens themselves present every type of shape to shot into them and internal contouring, surrounds bunkering and chipping collection areas, and a couple of bunkerless perfectly naturally draped over the land green sites make them the best 18 greens I have ever played.  

If you can, I strongly suggest you get your butt out to Nebraksa in the coming three weeks of fall windy and brisk conditions to play a course that will stack up to anything you revere in GB&I, Long Island or where ever. What you save in modest green fees and local lodging compared to the CCFAD venues will make up easily for added travel costs there with more money in your pocket after comparative golf trips.

Dan Proctor and Dave Axeland were genious in this design.  They did all this for a minimalist construction budget and careful design effort that is unparalleled.  Josh Mahar belongs in consideration at the top of his profession's list of talented superintendents and my fear is that one of the high profile rich clubs will realise this and soon lure him away for big bucks...  I can only hope that if that happens, he can find a person that has the talent to learn and love of that golf course that he has in order to properly train with Josh.  

Anyone that wants to debate these bold proclamations, I'll take on all comers  

[THuckaby2]

Dick - before I sick BillV on you - you HAVE played Sand Hills, correct?

If so, you're gonna be in big trouble.  If not, then hey, you're "best I've ever played" assertions have some documentation, so you made slide this by him.  Lucky you added the "I've ever played" part of the statement, though!

I'd love to get to Nebraska and see these... can't see a way to get there any time soon, though.  In the end, I fear this might be the case for the vast majority of us, though what you say re costs does make sense.  I thought Bandon was remote - I just found Gothenburg on a map.  The problem is that given that access to Sand Hills is so tough, Gothenburg is just tough to justify as a end destination for most people... I can just imagine telling my friends we're going to Nebraska for one course only... let alone trying to sell my wife on this!

Some day, let's hope more courses get built on this great land - including YOURS! Until then, it's gonna be just too tough to justify, coming from the coasts anyway.

My loss most definitely.

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Dick,

As you know from private e mails, I would favor making Nebraska the site of next year's fall get together.

We left Bandon with three ideas (Socal, Long Island and Nebraska), but no clear favorite.

While Long Island was the location I placed on the list, all things considered, I would go for Nebraska, especially if Dan Proctor and/or Dave Axeland can join us for a day/evening.

The whole idea is to include the architect while seeing some good golf that doesn't exclude anyone due to cost.  You'll recall our disappointment when Mike Strantz didn't make our Tobacco Road/Pinehurst meeting.  By contrast, Northern Michigan was great thanks to John McMillan's organization efforts and Tom Doak's participation.  John and Tom set a tough standard to match, but that should be our goal.  I certainly don't need just another golf holiday.

I hope we'll be in Nebraska next September.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Tim,
     It would be remiss when talking about the Michigan gathering not to mention to tour of Kingsley Club by Mike Devries followed up by dinner with him and Fred Muller. John did a great job of putting that together for us.

[Tim_Weiman]

Craig:

You are exactly right.  My apologies to Mike and Fred.  Along with John and Tom, their kindness made the trip as good a "golf architecture" get together as one could reasonably plan.

Fortunately, Dick Daley was part of the Michigan meeting and if he takes on being organizer for Nebraska, he will know what to shoot for.

[THuckaby2]

Not having ever made one of these gatherings, primarily due to conflicts as well as cost, I ought to keep my trap shut...

But...

Add Sand Hills into this and I'll sacrifice one of my kids to get there.

Just a thought....

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, I have studied SH in great detail 3 times now, but have NOT played it.  Each time I was there was the first week in May, and although the weather was very good, DY did not have it open even though by that time of the year WH has been open 5-6 weeks.  That is part of the quirky aspect of SH, along with the now "must be escourted by member policy".  I have walked the course with the super and alone for hours on previous times, always spending as many hours walking the course than it would take for a slow round (5+).  I think I have photographed just about every conceivable angle of the course and have hundreds of pictures.  I have walked most every angle of fairways and trompped through most of the bunkers.  I have examnined the greens and rolled a few balls on them for funsies to observe the breaks.  While that isn't legitimate play, with my game as you have seen, I need to hit multiple shots from everywhere over several times to really be comfortable with a true rating test.  Yet, how many good players play a course once on a 3.5 hour round and make rating proclamations?  I have spent a good amount of time at SH examining it over 6 years now.

That said, SH has more elevation change through the fairways to greens than WH.  It has more demanding forced carries off the tee.  SH does not have better variety positioning into greens from various fairway lies and sides than WH, although I'd say it is a toss up and neither course is superior to the other in that regard.  Turf in the fairways is different with SH more fescue blend in FWs and WH are Blues with all fescue surrounds of greens.  Firm and fast is equal at both.  I like the blues maintained the way WHs are.  In general, SH's greens are not as good as WH however.  Both in shape, internal contouring and because of the smaller average size of SH's restricting as much movement and interesting pin positions, WH gets the nod from me hands down.  Surrounds are also better and more varied at WH as I see it.  Distance is the greatest disparity.  SH is just a bigger lot to play on.  WH can be extended behind several teeing grounds now to streach it to 7000-7100 yards if this equipment thing keeps up.  Both Cory Crandall and Josh Mahar as superintendents are cut from the same tradition and are both highly talented.  But, SH is a more gruelling play, with tougher forced carries off every tee, including a longer and more difficult walk, which brings into account one of the fundamental tenets which is - an interesting/demanding course for the high skill player yet interesting and within the capability of the higher handicapp player.  In that regard WH also wins the day.

On cost consider this.  Tommy recently told me he can fly to Omaha or Lincoln RT from LA for $138.  I can get there from Green Bay for 163.  Rent a car for 5 days for 200 or so.  Take five days of lodging at super 8 in Gothenburg for $52 with tax.  Eat steak every night at a great little road house 10 miles out of town, or go to NP, 1/2 hour away for some decent restaurants and not pay more than $15 for the cattleman's cut.  Pay $33 a round at WH and play 2X a day for 4 days and I think you will be tired and need a rest.  If you like, drive another 80 miles west from Gotherburg and play Bayside which is more a CCFAD flavor for about $45 a round and an interesting GC that I'll write more about soon.  All that for probably less than you'd pay to travel to and play 2 days at Bandon, Pinehurst or one day at Pebble or Kohler.  And, you will meet the most down to earth people in NE that you can imagine.  What more could be fairer?  

[THuckaby2]

VERY well said, and you've sold me re the merits of the two courses.  I have little to add given I've never seen either... that's just some tall company to compare Wild Horse with, given all everyone says re Sand Hills..

Re the getting there part, I still have some issues....

See, remember I said above COST is not the issue.  I can do the math and I understand that.  What keeps me reticent from selling my soul to get there are two things:

a) lack of multiple courses, especially in light of

b) no matter how you do it, it's a LONG trip.

I can fly to Bandon and play the same day.  I did so.  I can fly to NY on a redeye and play the next morning, quite easily.  Reverse the process for East Coasters, and they have it basically the same as I do.

I can't see any trip to Nebraska being anything other than connecting flights or alternatively very expensive flights (the cheap ones go to bigger cities) and in any case long drives after a long flight, should you even get a flight at all - it's not like many airlines offer many flights to anywhere near Gothenburg.

That's what I mean by "remote".

Hey, I'm not arguing it would be fantastic once I get there.

Just to get me there, I'm gonna need multiple courses to justify the pain required.  For me, the easier it is to get to a place, the less I demand once I get there... and vice versa.

Make sense?

Add Sand Hills access to this and the question is OVER.

This topic has particular relevance to me as I plan an annual trip for my college buddies and Bandon is likely to be next year's site... What's keeping us from going there, maybe, is expense.  Bandon won't break you, but it's not cheap.  But it's gotten so much press I can sell these guys on it, cost be damned.  I'd love to try and pitch them on Nebraska, but I can't see them buying it for just Wild Horse and Bayside, especially since these guys will have heard of neither and a 2nd course 80 miles away, well...  Sand Hills they know...

Me personally, if I weren't married, if I didn't have kids, hell I'd fly to Nebraska today.  But that's not my reality... and I've have to say I'm more the norm than the exception.  Trips like this require political planning for a lot of us, thus can't be taken lightly.

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Tim, Craig, Tom and who ever,

Here is one set of tentative plans that could work.  If Dan Proctor and or Dave Axeland would be available next fall, we could have the perfect group gathering and discussions since they built two of the focus courses, and participated for C&C on SH.  

Choices to fly into Denver or Lincoln or Omaha.  NOrth Platte has a regional airport but the extra to go there is considerable, usually.  Arrival day early and a drive out to allow a late afternoon to twilight round at WH and sleepover at super 8 and chow at the road house.  Next day a two round bonanza at WH.  (Goodale and Kilfara can play their accustomary 52 holes, while the rest of us take feed and liquids!)

Next day drive out to Ogallala to Lake MacConeghey and play Bayside, hopefully joined by Dan (who nomadically lives in Paxton nearby).  Have a banquet and roundtable discussion at the Bayside clubhouse lodge that is sooo very appealling and attractive construction of log built structure like a modern mini Old Faithful Inn at Yellowstone.  Drive back to North Platte that night and stay at Holiday in for like 55 a night.  Next day, if we can cajole Youngscap to wave member escorted play, have an all day outing at Sand Hills.  Go back to NP for dinner at the Depot restaurant (great food) and then the next parting day optional to participants to replay WH, or Bayside depending on if you came from Denver or Omaha side of state.

As you all know, the builder/designer's life is the gypsie life on the road.  Who knows if the boys will have spare time to escort us on their golf courses and dine and discuss with us.  But, I'll ask Dan what he thinks soon when I talk to him.  If SH fell into place, I guarantee that this would be a trip of a lifetime for many of you.  I am so disappointed I missed one of those life time treats at Pac dunes this year.  I would be happy to make up for it by trying to arrange the above.  

[THuckaby2]

Like I say Dick, this trip sounds fantastic and I'd try my best.  Add Sand Hills and I'd sell my kid.

Any thoughts for me trying to sell my college buds on a trip there NOT involving meetings with arkies, etc.  These guys could care less about Axeland and Proctor (no offense) - they go to play great golf courses and drink all night.  Learning is not the issue.

TH

[RJ D]

Tom, take the early morn flight from SF and be in Denver before noon.  Rent car and drive 3 hours and be on the Bayside course to play an afternoon round.  Or, drive 4 hours from Denver and make WH also that same afternoon - twilight.  The speed limits are 75 and 80 is common, that from the ex-cop!  

[THuckaby2]

Thanks, Dick.  I still don't see my buddies buying a 2.5 hour flight and then a 3-4 hour drive...

That requires a craziness/devotion limited to participants on this board!

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

Read the whole thread then the original post again.  Great attitude Dick.  I don't think anybody would want to step into the ring with a man so passionate, absolute and clear in his conviction.  Right is might.  

[RJ D]

Tom, we all have our parameters on what defines crazy.  Now, an hour+ everyday one way commute sitting on freeways is my definition of nuts...  Your non-GCA buddies like many of mine just don't get it, me thinks.  But you are lucky to also live in the region of many of our most ardent GCA contributors and believers.  Pick up a carpool full of them head to airport and commute to NE.  Leave your buddies at Cinnebun Hills.

[THuckaby2]

Easy there, Dick - at least one of our NorCal GCA stalwarts loves Cinnabar Hills.

And commutes are rarely a matter of simple choice...

But you have my buddies pegged.  Nope, they don't "get it", not in the GCA context anyway.

You can see why Nebraska is off the list for such an outing, I guess.

I hope you understand though, that man does not live by "architecture" alone... these outings with my buddies, whether they "get it" or not, are always right at the top of my annual golf highlights.  With them in the end, it really doesn't matter much where we go.

To everything, turn, turn, turn.

There is a time for everything.

But I shall indeed leave Nebraska for a trip with like-minded architecture nuts.  I'm just not sure I myself really fit this category...

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Tom H, What's with the negative vibes, man?  Lay off the cosmic debris and groove into the nirvanalands of tie-dyed oneness with Earth and pleasantness.  Make the sale! Close the deal! Corral your cronies! Fast-track for success! Make it so, #1!  Just Do It!  

 Carpe niblick!        

[THuckaby2]

Sorry, Slag.  I don't mean to give negative vibes, man.  There are just realities of life and well...

I was trying to get Dick to give me some reasons to sell my college buds on getting there, as that is a trip I KNOW is gonna happen next year... and I can only do so many trips... and I've been to Bandon already...

Oh well.  I guess I'll just tap into the cosmic consciousness and hope it all works out.

Peace, brother.

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Dick:

I have only one word for plans you describe:

Perfect.

Tom Huckaby:

I don't know your college buddies, but can imagine Nebraska is not the place to go without some passion for golf architecture.

[THuckaby2]

Tim:  agreed on both points.

TH

[Doug Wright]

Tom H, If you don't want to drive from Denver to Nebraska, I'll be happy to chauffeur you. Plus the way the lines are at DIA these days we can catch a couple of local Denver gems whilst you're waiting to board your flight from DIA back home.

Count me in!

Doug

[THuckaby2]

Sounds great to me, Doug!

TH

[john f]

Dick (& the rest of the gang),

Don't ever consider yourself a homer if your touting WH & Nebraska. If you didn't, many of us might not have made the pilgramage.

I've been to Bandon (pre-PD) and while it was a great experience, Nebraska w/ SH of course, is once in a lifetime. Both places feel to me like the places you want to go to escape from the real world and get to that slower way of life.

Where our buddy Noel's comments? As our most recent visitor I'm sure he's got a few great points.

If we make this happen next year, count me in!!

[Evan Fleisher]

Dick,

Just make sure to swing by Dubuque and pick me up on the way out!!!

[Dan Kelly]

High up in this thread, Tim Weiman said something that I never thought I'd hear anyone say -- and that I guarantee you I'll never say: "I certainly don't need just another golf holiday."

You're a lucky man, sir! I need a golf holiday so bad I can taste it. I should drive to Gothenburg tonight!

[NAF]

I love both courses and Wild Horse is a fantastic place to WARM UP to Sand Hills but I dont think the 2 that comparable.  One is a classic, the other a solid, incredibly fun place to play..It is almost like Big Brother/Little Brother.

Wild Horse in another location might find itself rated much higher..I think it is a solid 7 on the Doak Scale with potential to be an 8..I love the par 3s, short par 4s and coffin-like bunkering style..I also love the fairway grass they use and the hard and fast play..The course is a little gem..With a better location, Dick is right it would get much more press and highlights in the golfing press..But why turn a gem into a place where it takes 5hours to play etc..Wild Horse is a special place...

As much as I like it though, as Dick would probably say it isnt the masterpiece that Sand Hills is...Sand Hills and Shinnecock are my 2 favorite courses and there is something about the Sand Hills experience that can't be replicated.  I think the course is also much tougher than Wild Horse to play in a strong wind..Sand Hills has better par 5s than any other course I have played..It is a 10!!

But Wild Horse shows what can be done on a shoestring in Nebraska and how fabulous the golf can be..I actually met 2 people who had logged 50 rounds at Sand Hills and preferred Wild Horse to it...And they come back every year for a week to Gothenburg to play it..

I think Dick has it right..If you build it they will come and more great golf in Nebraska (public) can only be a positive thing..

Hope you build you dream...

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