[Mike_Cirba]

If laser-guided tees pointing directly at center fairway are the goal, someone better get over to Merion and fix a bunch of them.  

Sheesh...

Who the heck cares where the tee is aiming??  Shouldn't we be looking a little further down the fairway and positioning ourselves in relation to our target?  Or using the Nicklaus method of aligning the clubhead to a leaf or discoloration a few inches in front of the ball?  

Perfectly aligned tees...what a boring and almost socialistic concept.  Almost as bad as yardage markers, don't you think Patrick?  

[Dan Kelly]

I propose a compromise: circular tee "boxes."

Always unaligned.

Always perfectly aligned.

Have it whichever way you like.

[TEPaul]

How about octagonal tees or nonagonal tees or whatever you call ten, twelve, fourteen, twenty etc little straight angles--the more the merrier! Then the golfer could line himself up on whichever of the little straight angles he wanted to line up on!

Oh for Crissakes, then he probably wouldn't be able to decide which one was best for him and the USGA would step in and say, "No can do" since even a millisecond of indecision contributes to slow play etc, etc.

We need more golfers like Tommy Naccarato who can identify and execute on alternate fairways alternate angles and multiple options in a New York second!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Robert Walker,

Since I'm not a fan of free form or amoeba tee boxes, I prefer rectangular or square tee boxes.

I think rectangular or square tee boxes are more traditional.  

In addition, the word box, implies rectangular or square.

As Tom Doak said, the golfer shouldn't be
MIS-ALIGNED, which means they have to be aligned, and the best way to do that is through tee construction, not as you suggest, relying on a minimum wage employee, who's in a hurry, and doesn't think it's important, at six in the morning, to align your tee markers to the center of the driving zone, as you suggest.  That isn't reality, and it just won't get done.

If you construct a tee as close to desd level as you suggest, you will create drainage problems.  Tees should be constructed with pitch, one or two degrees, toe to heel for a righty is preferable, unless there are other drainage reasons for doing it differently.

TEPaul,

I trust the above satisfys your request.

I'm still looking for the false poster, and will keep you advised.

I hope you see the error of your ways and discontinue the folly of pursuing the design of tee boxes in non-linear shapes.

I'm beginning to see how you went wrong on the STYMIE  

[Dan Kelly]

TEPaul --

We're on the same wave length, buddy -- a circle being merely a polygon with an infinite number of sides.

But take me seriously for just a moment: Why not circular tees?

I'm not saying that circular tees should replace square ones and rectangular ones and L-shaped ones and V-shaped ones and parallelogram-shaped ones -- all of which have their places.

But why not some circular tees?

[Bill_Spellman]

Mike Cirba

Having just returned from a round at Merion and having worked there for three years as an assistant pro, I can reaffirm your comment about the tees. Virtally all of the tees aim slightly off line and very few are level. In fact on the new 3rd hole and 5th hole tees, My host stated that at least it was a typical Merion tee box, and thatthey are certainly not totally level. I can aslo statre that the unlevel, unaimed boxes are something that I remebered with fondness over the years.I have always felt that an architect is under no obligation to align or level tees and that is part of the challange that they have presented. I say learn what the nuance is and deal with it.If it was easy everyone would play well, and then it would be boring.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill Spellman,

I heartily agree and the misaligned tees are clearly part of the considerable charm and character of Merion.

Wasn't yesterday a splendid day to play golf?  Was it the first time you'd played Merion in awhile?    

[TEPaul]

Dan Kelly:

I have nothing at all against circular tees. You can tell I really don't seem to have anything against much of anything in tees, not even misaligned ones.

Speaking of tees, their shapes and whatnot, I did see some interesting ones yesterday at Applebrook that are melded with the chipping areas off the previous greens. These I just love and some probably only have one or two linear lines to them so theoretically there would probably be lot of latitude to where the markers could be placed.

I like shared tees a lot too! I loved the first tee at Atlantic City which seemed to meld right out of the practice putting green and really had no particular definition, just two markers on a very nice short lawn. I even sort of liked the old original tees at Metedeconk which were basically greens complete with a few cups on then in case you had to wait. I liked them but they made me nervous and also made me put away my 1 iron, which I didn't care to do, but was too afraid of any kind of divot!

[Bill_Spellman]

Mike Cirba

I played two weeks ago and it was a great day! How can you beat a day of golf at Merion under any conditions. I am still formulating an intelligent post on the bunker work and other changes there. My first impressions are colored by what I so vividly remember versus what is there now.I had the great pleasure and honor of working under Bill Kittleman and he opened my eyes(and ears) to golf course architecture and the history of Merion. I had been an assistant pro for seven years, but working there and with Bill was my personal graduate school education. I will post my thoughts on the work done at a later time  

[RobertWalker]

Pat Mucci,
I meant to say as close to dead level as possible. Naturally, that would mean some kind of pitch. I am so glad to see you in 100% agreement with me for a change. (ISFH)

[Dan Kelly]

TEPaul --

I wasn't really asking you, personally, what you have against circular tees. (Only the first comment was specifically for you.)

I was asking the Discussion Group, generally, what they thought of circular tees. I don't know that I've ever seen any, and now I'm wondering why.

[Ed_Baker]

Dan,

One of the more obvious reasons would be so that the "shape challenged" golfers wouldn't confuse them with greens and shell everybody

[TEPaul]

Dan:

Now that you mention it I can't remember exactly ever seeing circular tees but I feel like I have somewhere. Maybe they would be a little odd to mow and then there may be the more practical reason of how exactly would maintenance set the tee markers? It would seem that setting tee markers would be far more dicey then doing the job on the more linear variety. And don't forget if the tee markers are really screwed up, we (as golfers) can't move them ourselves--not without violating the rules of golf that is!

[TEPaul]

Bravo Ed--you've just coined the newest politically correct American golf euphemism---"shape challenged". That may even include me lately, I certainly seem to have gotten a little "target challenged". Thank God our boys in the US Military haven't become afflicted by those conditions yet though!

We all have known for some time that our boy Pat has been quite "alignment challenged" for quite some time certainly indicated by his own tee box alignment preferences. But if he can find an architect that can line him up correctly he's hell on the course--I know because I've seen him! But anything over 6 degrees of separation can send him into areas that are both dense and pathetic!

[Craig Van Egmond]

Newcastle golf course has some circular tees, the only problem I see is that some of them are too small and don't hold up well for the traffic.  Its a Bob Cupp course.
http://www.newcastlegolf.com/hole_6.htm

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Spellman and Mike Cirba,

Not being familiar with Merion, could it be that the tee boxes are properly aligned, and that the fairway lines have been moved over the years, causing the appearance of tees slightly off line ??

Dan Kelly,

Would circular tees create a maintainance headache in terms of the crews mowing patterns, time and money

How would you mow them ?

TEPaul,

I'm still looking for that guy !

[TEPaul]

I would certainly assume that some of Merion's tees might appear misaligned because the fairway patterns have been narrowed. I would assume that would be true on something like #6 where the fairway used to play considerably up to the right too.

But that might all change with the Merion restoration underway.

You find that guy for me Pat, but if you don't and he doesn't show up on here again that's fine too--I'll just assume that he knows you're looking for him and what will happen if he sticks his head up for air!

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

I wouldn't mow them. I'd hire someone qualified to do it.

I am sorta surprised to hear that you like your tee boxes aligned. (Or were you just funnin' us about that?   ) Doesn't that violate your disdain for information of any kind? Eh?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

By "qualified" people, do you mean the minimum wage grounds crew ?

Don't you think circular tees present a maintainance problem in terms of the ability to mow them properly, time and money ??

[RobertWalker]

Pat Mucci- gotcha (isfh)

[TEPaul]

Come on Pat, you're slipping! Haven't you seen the latest Toro that has the optional circular cut mode. Just rev it up to the redline, hit the button and Whooooosh the tee is done. Minimum wage has nothing to do with it. You just find the guy who is least likely to get dizzy and it's done perfectly!

[Peter Galea]

Circular tees can be mowed properly, although they look less natural than square/rectangular tees. Rectangular tees give a formal look to the course. I've never heard anyone complain about rectangular greens. Matter of fact, I think they were revered on this site a while ago. Are they more acceptable than squared off tees. If so, why?

[jglenn]

Patrick,

I wasn't aware that mowing circular tees presented more of a challenge than any other shape, I'm not sure if I understand where you're getting at.  However:

With, obviously, the red showing when you'd lift the blade, and the green showing where you'd set it back down.  

Of course, as with anywhere else, you'd change direction of moving everyday (up-&-down one day; left-to-right another; then at both 45deg angles) so as to prevent the blades of grass from "leaning down" in the same direction (of mowing).

[Bill_Spellman]

T.E. Paul, Mike Cirba

Here I am. It is possible that #6 fairway line has been narrowed and swung to the left. I can only report that was the situation when I first saw it in 1971 and it hasn't appeared to change. Mr Paul, I believe that we are from the same area.My home is West Chester, PA. and I would love to get together for a round at Applebrook or another site. I have enjoyed your posts immensely and your wealth of knowledge is impressive. I can certainly use more education about architecture. My knowledge comes more from a players side as opposed to an architects. I now live in the Ocean City MD. area but get home frequently. I can be e-mailed at espp168sales@aol.com
It was also my understanding that fairway lines at Merion were going to be returned to "1930", but I didn't notice much difference. Looking forward to hearing from you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeremy Glenn,

Is that a riding tri-plex or a hand mower you've illustrated ?

Dan Kelly   and Robert Walker,

I don't see what information I (I) am receiving, could you please inform me what specific information the alignment of the tee provides, to ME.

I prefer a more traditional looking tee, squares and rectangles fit that preferance.

Free form tees can get to artsy/craftsy and just plain goofy.

Properly aligning a tee is something architects have done for centuries, are you now stating for the record that you are proponents of architects mis-aligning tees ?

Robert, I'm curious, have you suggested to the green committee chairman and superintendent at Baltusrol that you prefer that they not align their tees ?  

Do you think Ross, MacDonald, Raynor, Banks, Flynn et.al. misaligned their tees ?
Or do you think it was SOP that they aligned their tees to where they wanted you to drive the ball ?

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