[Mike_Cirba]

Forgetting my cutesy title for a moment, is there anything else like it in the US?

Consider the following;

Only one hole is over 500 yards, although there are 4 par fives and a requisite par 72.

The longest par four is 422 yards, although it plays with the prevailing wind and a number of others play effectively longer.

The longest par three is 179 yards.

The fairways are extremely wide and generous.  Most of the greens are very large, with a few notable exceptions.

Inland water comes into play on five holes, including THREE "cape" holes.

The bunkering is thoughtfully positioned, although pretty ubiquitous and generally penal.

The "dunes" holes are probably the closest, most authentic holes to golf in the old sod that exists in the new world.

Yet, the course is all the challenge one might want, and every hole presents an entirely new, challenging puzzle.  When the wind blows, which is always, one's mind goes quickly to overload considering the various ways to play each hole.

The greens are incredible, with as much internal contour as any inland course I've seen.  Ones like the 10th border on the "U-word", and its tough to imagine hole locations there where two putting is not a miraculous feat of strategy and execution.  

Every hole has a different twist, seeming to know what you are apt to attempt, and guarding just that move with a counter-strike of its own.  Strategy abounds at every turn, and it's more golf course in 6400 yards than most are from 7200.  

I don't even know how to go about picking a favorite hole, but am thrilled that the members over the years must have been similarly enthralled, making very, very, very few changes since Willie & John Park laid out the present version of the West course in 1924.  

Can golf get more fun than Maidstone?  

[TEPaul]

Glad you liked it and I knew you'd appreciate it. It's not really one of a kind (there are other like it) but Maidstone is definitely Maidstone!

The greens are interesting and very varied. Some aren't really much contour or slope but some of the rest are unbelievably the other way. There is something for everyone there and the spectrum of the playability of the golf course is one of its real fascinations--it really can be pretty easy to play sometimes and other times it could challenge anyone in the world. That's the way I think a course like that should be and for that we all know what the Maidstone depends on! It's pretty darn cool that the primary architectural feature of the course really isn't an architectural feature at all just something that the course's architecture really knows how to use very well---that nonarchitectural element---the wind!!

[Scotty]

Nae wind, nae golf.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I hope I didn't come off as too hyperbolic, but we had a blast playing 36 last Wednesday!  

When I said "is there anything else like it", I guess I was referring to the fact that it's such a mixture of holes with so many cool architectural features on each one, at such a shortish length, and on such a fabulous property.  But, what makes it particularly unique to me is that it has held it's spot in the Top 40 courses in the country in ALL of the rankings, even those that seem to favor tougher challenges, despite the quirky nature and general lack of length.  I guess a similiar case could be made for Cypress Point, but there are frankly NO long holes at Maidstone.

Maidstone will also be now forever etched in my memory as the place where I heard one of the most humorous, if perhaps inadvertent, psyche-out, gamesmanship comments of all time.  

Gene and I were playing with brothers Corey and Brad Miller, and one of the brothers gets up on 15 from the dune-top tee and laces a solid drive down the middle.

The other brother (not saying which one) steps to the tee.  

Perhaps allowing himself a bit of time to soak in the scene, the contented first brother happens to notice the large, beautiful, beachfront house sitting about 100 yards from the tee, and off a bit to the right.  As his brother is prepared to address the ball, he asks aloud,

"Is that house in play??"

Without pausing, the other says....

"Thanks for the swing thought!"

[Josh_Mahar]

I have to agree that Maidstone is a great play, probably the most fun of any of the courses I played on LI.  Before everyone starts jumping on me--I said fun not best.  Shinnecock is pure and very challenging and NGLA has so many great design concepts, but for outright fun I would choose Maidstone.  
The routing is superb and options abound creating an enjoyable outing for an average player like myself.  That's just one man's opinion though!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Two impressions of Maidstone.

My first:
As I walked off the 18th green, I looked at my host, and despite the fact that we were to attend a Bar-BQ that afternoon, we just walked over to the 1st tee for another 18, content that it was worth facing the music later.

My second:

As much as I love the course, there have been times when I felt it wasn't maintained properly, with long, damp fairways.
A member I know said there are those who feel that conditions of play weren't important, and despite the wealth at the club, the budget was limited.

Hopefully, that thinking has changed, and you found the fairways short, dry, fast and firm.

I would classify Maidstone as extremely sporty, fun to play, much like NGLA.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

That house to the right of #15 tee is not remotely in play although Lee Radziwill (Jackie O's sister) probably wishes it were. She lives directly next to it on the beach. The guy that built that house built that large wall that completely cut off her entire view to the south and west. I think a long cantankerous lawsuit followed.

So tell either of the Millers that next time there if they want to take dead aim at that  house with a few spare balls anyway they will probably receive a letter of thanks from Lee R.!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

That house may not be "remotely in play", but I can tell you that it was looming much larger and certainly seemed to be growing in size and proximity after the comment was made!

To make matters worse, our caddie quickly chimed in to say he's seen it done.  

Add a howling left to right crosswind, the speculative teebox conversation, and you can understand the mental predicament of the following players...brothers and others!    

[Adam_Messix]

Guys, Guess What?

The house to the right of the 15th tee HAS been hit.  As a matter of fact, the owner put in bullet proof glass to make sure none of windows broke.  I heard and had it confirmed by members of Maidstone during my recent visit.

[Charles_P.]

Tom & Mike, I think you're talking about two different houses.  The house with the wall (that looks like an airline terminal building or hockey rink) Tom mentions is visible from the 15th tee to the right, but it's on the Wiborg Beach parking lot 4 houses over from the course itself.  I think Mike is talking about the shingled house immediately to the right, about 130 yards off the tee.

[Charles_P.]

Adam, that bulletproof glass story is just that -- a story.  To get hurricane insurance, any house on the ocean requires extra heavy-duty windows.  As a result, the windows can take a golf ball, no problem, but certainly not a bullet!  (Trust me, it's my parents' house.  It gets hit with maybe 6 balls a year -- that we notice -- tops.)

[TEPaul]

Oh, I know which house you mean! The one over the junk on the right. What's the  matter with you guys? You're really worried about hitting that house? Jesus! I don't know if you guys are worried about the wind or if you're slicers or what (the other way for you MikeC I realize). If you're hookers you better not play NGLA because you're much more likely to hit the clubhouse and then you're really in the soup!

Anyway on #15 they obviously didn't tell you where to aim your tee ball--it's considerably to the left of where you might think, particularly in that kind of wind!

[brad_miller]

Thanks Mike for passing on my brother's comment. The best way for me to take the HOUSE out of play would be to aim for it!!!

It would be pretty hard to hit a wood that far right, maybe a S... 2 iron thought.
Maidstone was a JOY, fun, sporty, plenty of wind, the dune holes are special.

[brad_miller]

Tom, I'm not that bad, it was just a funny comment given the timing, that's why I thanked my brother?? for the great swing thought!!

[Ran Morrissett]

Sometimes Maidstone seems to suffer as being considered the 'weak' sister to Shinnecock and National.

However, to put it in perspective on the world stage, I reckon there are only 6-8 links in all the U.K that are clearly its superior in terms of being challengingly fun by requiring the golfer to control his trajectory and invent shots.

Taken as a set, surely Maidstone's green complexes are amongst the finest in the world? I have been told time and time again that the greens have a real knack for identifying the pure putter during the Bowl each year.

I haven't been there in 10 years but can still vividly recall the left shoulder of the 6th green...the fierce (!) slope of the 10th...how hard it is to bump a 40 yard pitch close to the hole on 15 and 16...the elusive nature of the 17th green.

Mike, the short two shot 5th always seemed to possess great charm - is that a fair call?

[TEPaul]

I love the Maidstone almost as much as any place but I wouldn't want to go too overboard on saying "that taken as a set the greens may be some of the best in the world". That's a remark I might reserve for NGLA though. Many of the greens (surfaces) at Maidstone are great--some aren't!

This is the way I feel about the greens at Maidstone:

#1 green.

An excellent green SETTING--very European! Unusual as it just sits up there at the end of a "open field" hole basically uncluttered of architecture. The rugged unmaintained bunkering on the left really adds to this hole but the height of the green and the road left and behind really make this green-end and it's strategy. Anybody who has the balls to go after the left rear pin on this hole particularly in a playoff deserves to win the Maidstone Bowl and believe me I know because it happened to me in the finals one year. In a playoff! I hit a really good shot about 10 feet from that left rear flag and one of the opponents hit it about 3 feet. I missed and he made and won and I sure didn't mind heartily congratulating something like that. That was a risk he totally deserved a birdie and the Maidstone Bowl reward for. To me it's a really good approach shot green but as a putting surface its OK--so so, maybe a B, but with all the approach shot stuff maybe that's all it needs to be. I would dare any architect to build a hole like this today--I don't think anyone has the guts--it would be misunderstood--most golfers would say "where's the beef?" and others might even say on the tee, "where's the hole?"

#2 green:

Again a wonderful green to approach! Really good and very deceptive to understand how much club to hit to the rear of the green. The carry over the left bunker which is far larger than a traditional road hole bunker is very deceptive and complicated to play to properly. The right front of the green is quite narrow (as it should be) and the bunker rear (the road) is a good one and well placed. The angle of this green is excellent and the green-end of this hole doesn't get anywhere near the credit it deserves. Once on the green the putting is so-so--there is more complexity than one would think but again maybe for a green that has the interest approaching it that this does really doesn't need much more complexity on the surface. NGLA's road hole green is the best around but Maidstone's isn't all that far behind.

#3 Green.

Another interesting green to approach because of the upslope in front and the two tiers. The back left pin is really a good one and very hard to get to from anywhere on the right even from the putting surface. Of course putting from the back to the front tier can be tricky but again most of the interest of this green and green-end is approaching it!

#4 green.

Really a large green--much larger than one would expect and far larger even than it looks from the tee. I've always found this tee shot an interesting one and one that requires a darn good shot in the prevailing wind. Seems almost all the times I've ever played this hole, I (and everyone) is trying to prevent the ball from blowing or getting off to the left somehow! So for this reason maybe the putting surface size has some real meaning. The interest on this green is its size and sometimes trying to just control the speed (and figure out the right club to hit into the size) on some deceptively long putts and this one's putting surface is probably the least interesting on the course--except for the size of it.

#5 green.

I've always thought this little hole has been overlooked a bit. It is definitely a birdie hole and everything about its tee to green design says that to the golfer! But from tee to green you have to think well on it and to get that birdie you have to produce two well thought out shots. This one can get you though. I've never carried a driver back to this tee once in all the years I've played it. Some always do and others take a selection of clubs back every time. This says something, don't you think? #5 is like a total "feel" hole!! For the long hitters of today getting over the flanking bunkers isn't much and the hole then becomes quite easy. The green-end is a basic red light/green light one depending on where the pin is. If it's in the back the green is similar to #1--you've got to have guts to go back there and a front pin is a real green light! The green surface has a bit of break and speed complexity putting from side to side and coming from behind the pin but this surface is in the bottom half of the Maidstone greens. Again, what's behind this green basically makes this hole. I've seen more good players screw up this hole somehow than one would expect though. So the pin/approach variety of this hole as well as the total tee to green varietal strategy make this hole, not the putting surface.

#6 Green.

This is the first of the world class putting green surfaces at Maidstone and for anyone who has seen it and played it I really don't think I need to explain why. This hole is your basic super spectrum wind hole and approaching it can be many different clubs depending on that and the putting surface itself is world class. Talk about a green and surface that has real strategic implications.

#7 green.

This is a very cool little cape hole whose green surface is also one of the blandest on the course. Doesn't really need to be anything else really since the tee to green of this hole can be so interesting. Very much the wind hole and if you play it into a strong headwind the approach shot requires  some of the European knockdown variety that can make you pucker with the green setting. Downwind this hole is almost driveable for long hitters and the hole is very much the birdie hole or an easy stumbling block, all depending on the wind. Again with the green setting this green space doesn't really need much complexity and it doesn't have it!

#8 green:

So unique! One of the more memorable holes anywhere just because of what it looks like. A hole and green which is really so much "feel", experience, "gauge" etc. To make a birdie here you've got to get a bit lucky which isn't that hard to do with a pin on green's midsection. You can sort of forget about getting close to a front pin though and the rear high tier of the green is really neat to approach to from the tee and putt to as well. This green surface is excellent!

#9 Green.

This hole is one of my very favorites in the world! The tee shot is totally marvelous and the approach shot is almost marvelouser. And what a world class green setting! As much as I love this hole I've never played it very well and I must say I think the green surface is world class probably due to the green's length as much as anything and the difficulty of trying to gauge that approach distance. I've never figured out how to putt this green very well either and everytime on it it seems like the first time and a green that you have to reread and reread and start all over again. This is a mysterious green surface to me, a bit of an enigma and I love it and everything about the hole!

Back nine some other time but like the front nine the back nine has about 3-4 world class putting surfaces although the rest of the holes that don't have the greatest surfaces have something else about the hole that's neat somehow to compensate and maybe that's one of the reasons Maidstone is so interesting.

[brad_miller]

Tom, spot on! Remember the 3rd green itself being better thought. Looking at the 5th green from the 15th green, it must be close to 40plus yards back to front.

[TEPaul]

Brad, you must mean the 4th green. It's been expanded rather recently maybe ten paces or so in the rear. The 3rd green is a good one but maybe 7th or 8th on the course in real on the surface putting interest.

Don't forget, I'm not really criticizing any of the greens that don't have the internal contour or slope of some of the others. Many times even though some may be relatively flat, they have other interest to the golfer. Some that are relatively flat have their size for putting interest (#2, #4, #11. #12 (to a degree) #13 and #15, #16). Others that may be smaller and relatively flat have other interest attached to them like their intense setting (#1, #5 (to a degree), #7). Still others like #15 and #16  have well placed bunkering to make them interesting (or portions of them interesting).

But for the real world class green surfaces of Maidstone I would say #6!!,#8!,#9!,#10!!!,#17!,#18!!

[Adam_Messix]

Charles P.--

Thanks for the clarification.  I talked with one of my member friends of Maidstone and forwarded word to him.  It's interesting how a story like that can spread around a club.  

I think Mike and Tom are correct about there being some world class greens at Maidstone.  The ones that got my attention were 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 14, 17, and 18.  

Do you guys think that a potential problem with Maidstone's site is that the 2nd, 3rd, 16th, and 17th holes that had to be routed through low wetland type areas and it can be difficult to get those holes firmed up.

It's easy to see why #5 is overlooked, but just play in good drive, 5 iron like we did and it won't be overlooked anymore.  

[TEPaul]

Adam:

Good point there about the water problems on the wetland stretch of holes. If you get a slightly heavy rain #2 through the green becomes a bit of a footbath but hey, that's OK with me! It does make the hole play longer and I kinda like watching a drive and a second shot hydroplane a little. I can also get a nice selective lie out of some very comprehensive casual water. I look at all that as just adding to the variety of the playing experience.

Wow, you put #12 green surface up there among your favorites? That would be about my 16th or 17th favorite green surface. I also think that entire hole is about the most ordinary out there. A very nice hole anywhere else, mind you, but up against the rest of the interest of the rest of the holes at Maidstone, the one that needs a phone book on its chair!

[Adam_Messix]

Tom--

I didn't say there was anything wrong with 2 being wet after a rain.....just an oberservation.  

I guess my liking 12 green is more because I liked the entire green complex.  In the wind we were playing in (downwind left to right), the shot required was to just carry the bunker 20 yards short of the green and chase it on.  Any shot that carried onto the putting surface was going over.  Sort of reminded me of the approach to #16 at Kittansett in look with the bunkers way short of the green (the green at Kittansett's a little different though)

[TEPaul]

Adam:

Wow, I've never been able to do that at #12--not 20yds anyway--or I've never seen a condition where you couldn't hold the ball on the green when hitting some part of it. The course must have been firmer and faster than I've ever seen it---cool--I like that!

[Mike_Cirba]

Adam/Tom,

The conditions Adam describes on 12 are similar to our second round last week.  We had about a 25mph wind behind us, and any ball hit directly onto the green wouldn't hold and the proper play was to use the landing zone and chase it on, particularly given the front hole location.

Tom..I really enjoyed your descriptions of the greens and was waiting to hear your take on my favorites...10, 17, & 18.  10 in particular is quite unfair (using that word as the highest compliment, as we agreed a while back  )

One thing I'd like to point out about the 9th that makes it so intriguing is the way the first third of the green rises uphill, and then falls away to the back for the rear 2/3.  Playing prevailingly downwind, this means that an approach to a front hole location really needs to be landed short and run on favoring the knob on the left.  To a rear hole location, I'd imagine that hitting the front of the green and letting the terrain sling it to the back is the preferred approach.  Putting on that exposed, hilltop green is another on where you have to consider the effects of the wind.

[Mike_Rewinski]

A quick note about Maidstone's conditioning since it is sometimes criticized for not being up to modern standards. First off they had problems getting a well permit when they first installed the automatic system in the 70's. They were granted a permit for a well and pump with about a 150 gpm limit. This is enough to do about 1 green at a time (4 heads at 30+ gpm). The tees have really small heads to limit the amount of water that is used. So the fairways have absolutely no irrigation. The groundwater level of the area is determined by the water level in Hook Pond. Hook Pond has a drain pipe that opens into the Atlantic Ocean. When the water gets too high the pipeline is opened, but in comparison to the amount of rainwater that flows into the pond the drain pipe is miniscule. So sometimes in the spring it takes weeks to get the water level down to where it doesn't keep the fairways flooded, and I  believe that the Village of Easthampton, not the Maidstone Club, controls when the pipe is opened and how long it stays open. The fairways on holes #2,#3,#6,#16 and #17 are seriously effected by the water level in Hook Pond. So conditioning at Maidstone is largely in the hands of Mother Nature like it should be on any real golf course, in the summer and fall the course is treat to play. I always view the conditions at Maidstone as a possible gut check, some golfers just aren't tough enough to handle adversity.

[Paul Turner]

Which links course in GB&Ir does Maidstone most resemble?  How big are the dunes?

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