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Don_Mahaffey

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« on: October 12, 2001, 11:03:00 AM »
Since we have been spending quite a bit of time discussing "weak" and "lackluster" holes, I though it might be fun to learn about the worst holes you've ever seen. I'll start with this one. I don't remember the name of the course (I think it was Sierra something or other), but I do remember it was in the Riverside- San Berdo area. It was a 90 degree dogleg left that was only about 320 if you played it conventionally and significantly less if you cut the corner. The problem was houses were built on the inside of the dogleg and they were getting bombed. So, management came up with the clever idea to make it OB if you hit your tee ball more than 200 off the tee. You could hit a perfect drive, draw it around the corner and be OB. Of course the OB ceased to exist after the tee shot. Talk about in course OB. Without a doubt, the worst hole I've ever seen on a "real" course.

Jeff_Stettner

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2001, 11:25:00 AM »
Don:
Sierra LaVerne by chance? Near Claremont, CA?

Ed_Baker

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2001, 11:50:00 AM »
Must be a Calif. thing.

Is there a Sierra Shirley too?


Tommy_Naccarato

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2001, 12:03:00 PM »
Jeff is correct. It is Sierra-La Verne which was built and designed by a grading contractor who owned the land and developed the houses around it.

Horrible course that actually had a few decent holes on the back nine with terrain reminescent of Aviara. In fact maybe Ed seay or someone from APD visited there for inspiration!

The course is right up the way from Jeff Brauer's remodeled San Dimas, which is a fun public course.


Tommy_Naccarato

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2001, 12:10:00 PM »
I forgot to add, before Sierra-LaVerne went private, I had played the course before it even had houses on it. Even then, the hole that Don talks of was pretty bizarre.

One could actually make a play for the green even then, but once the houses got built it was imposible unless you wanted to end up in some unsuspecting homeowner's bowl of Wheaties.

This club has the distinction of being accused of serving jockey Willie Shoemaker too much alcohol after a round, which forever changed his life. While falling asleep at the wheel, Shoemaker drove his Ford Bronco off of a nearby freeway overpass and rendered himself a quadrapalegic.


Tommy_Naccarato

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2001, 12:26:00 PM »
The worst hole I have ever seen is Tustin Ranch's 11th which is the epotomy of legacy of Ted Robinson.

Another bad one is Bob Cupp's 17th at Tijera Rejada which really isn't design when you think of it. They just found a place to cut a green and made room for some tee boxes.

La-Habra Westridge's second hole is another. If you can make it past not getting plastered from the approaches aimed at you from the opening hole. The landing area for this hole has turned out to be the landing area of the 5th fairway which is terraced down below it. When hitting from the tee, it is amazing to see all of the people on the 5th fairway scrambling out of the way, while everyone is screaming "Fore!"

Protecting this strategy is a mounded area with a bunker in it that is framed nicely by cart path.

And the design doesn't end there.

You are now faced with a second shot to a fairway that is less then 30 yards wide that is protected with eco area on the left and fall-away eco area on the right.

Isn't it amazing how all of this stuff, so far, is in SoCal?


Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2001, 01:14:00 PM »
I imagine we've all played a lot of bad holes. I know I have, and none of them was in Southern California.

Do you mind if I suggest a subthread? Here it is: What's the most misbegotten hole you've seen or played? By which I mean: What hole represents the biggest waste of good terrain? In still other words: What hole represents the biggest gap between its potential and its actuality?

I nominate No. 8 at Inver Wood Golf Course in Inver Grove Heights, Minnesota -- a course I have played several dozen times over the past four years. (It's a municipal course, always impeccably groomed, with a slew of fine, tough holes and a few real stinkers. Ten minutes from my office -- and with a very fair price, all things considered: $28.)

No. 8 is a long, long par-4 -- by the card, 450-something from the back tee; 430-440 from the whites. It plays much, much longer than that, up the hill, and usually into the wind.

This is a really, really pretty piece of ground -- reminiscent of one of the holes at Princeville, late in the back 9. You'll remember it if you've played there. (I can't remember the number.)

At Inver Wood No. 8, one drives over a deep valley (not in play except for a foozle) onto a fairway that sweeps from left to right, up and up and up a hill -- up all the way to the green.

The driving area doesn't quite require a fade, but it encourages one, as there are a couple of really big trees (oaks, I think) that hang over the right rough and maybe over some of the fairway at about 150 yards off the tee. The left side is built up; a drive hit to the left edge of the fairway, or even in the edge of the left rough, will bounce right into the fairway. So a draw will work, so long as you don't pull it too far up the hillside.

So far, so good. Now, having busted a drive, a player of pretty decent but not newsworthy length, such as yours truly, is facing a very well-struck 3-wood or 1-iron to the green, which sits right at the top of the hill.

Fun shot, right? Should be. Isn't.

There are two bunkers short and left of the green. One big bunker short and right. There's a ramp maybe 10 yards wide (at the most) between the bunkers, up which one could conceivably thread a running 3-wood. But it's a dumb shot to try, as I learned after a couple dozen tries, almost all of which bounced to the right into the right-front bunker.

Conclusion, at last: The ramp is too narrow. The bunkers are nasty. One is much better off laying back 80 yards.

If one does, somehow, get to a position where one could hit a ball that would fly over the bunkers and land on the green (I've been in that position a couple of times, downwind), one will quickly discover that the green is really a pair of quite small greens in a PB-17-like shape from front right to back left -- and that neither one of them is prepared to accept a 3-wood. You'll go over every time.

In my humble opinion, the hole would be a  gem if they'd get rid of the bunkers and make the green considerably rounder than its current sideways hourglassy look -- so that one could hit a heroic bump-and-run 3-wood and actually have it end on the green. The hole would be the highlight of a day at Inver Wood (particularly if one managed to hit two crisp shots up the hill and onto the green) -- rather than a horrible three-shot par-4 that one plays for 5/maybe-4 in order to avoid 6/maybe-5.

I went into the clubhouse after a round there one day and said: "You know, I like your golf course a lot, but there's one hole that's SO bad it almost ruins the whole day. And you could fix it so easily."

"Which hole is that?"

"Number 8."

"Number 8?"

"Number 8. It's a terrible hole."

"Number 8," said the young man behind the counter, "is one of the Top 10 Par-4s in Minnesota."

"No, it isn't," I said -- wondering, with a bit of horror, if it had been my own newspaper that had thus anointed it. "In fact, there are nine better par-4s on this golf course."

What a waste.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John_McMillan

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2001, 01:23:00 PM »
Re the OB -

It's a solution for casual play, but I can't see how it is consistent with USGA rules.  An area is either OB or it isn't.  There is no provision in allowing local rules for "shot-contingent" hazards.  If you whiff your tee shot, how does the hazard play for the second shot?  


Shivas Irons

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2001, 01:25:00 PM »
For me, it has to be #9 at The Gallery outside of Tucson.  The hole is 725 yards and plays a bit downhill.  To the left side of where the fairway begins sits one of the most unnatural looking bunkers I've ever seen, as it is elevated into an artificial mound on an otherwise downhill hole.  The two-tiered green is wide but shallow, with the right tier a good 4 or 5 feet above the left tier.

Don_Mahaffey

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2001, 01:30:00 PM »
Sierra LaVerne it is. All I remember was that absurd hole with OB stakes about 10 feet apart, place straight across the fairway 200 yds out.
Tommy,
Do you think that So Cal being so starved for courses led to an "anything goes" attitude? I know when I lived in Orange County in the 80's golf consisted of getting up at 4am and waiting in line at El Dorado in Long Beach or Mile Square in Fountain Valley. El Dorado wasn't bad, just always in terrible shape. Mile Square was terrible, but at least it was golf.

Tommy_Naccarato

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2001, 07:30:00 AM »
Don,
I think what more or less happened with SoCal is exactly what Tom Doak described in Confidential Guide To Golf Courses. He said something to the effect that Southern California is home to some of the most mediocre of golf designs when compared to the great ones that do exist here.

A lot of that has to do with the fact that the building of the majority of the local muni's took lace in the Golf Architecture starved 50's and 60's. The area was young and thriving. Aerospace was the theme of employment as a great amount of SoCalifornian's worked in that industry.

The 1950's basically saw housing tracks popping out of all of the orange and avocado groves; people having kids in the droves (The baby boom) and this also meant the counties developing parks and recreation. It all happened rather quickly. Time wasn't spent looking for the best golf land. Time was spent making sure every corner had a gas station and behind that supermakrkets and small shopping centers.

In short--all of the good land was lost for urban growth. With that, came the fact that when a park was built, if its infrastructure contained a golf course it was one that was usually designed by Billy Bell Jr. for the county of Los Angeles, and done in a very fast and minimal manner (Getting into that attention to detail thing)

The course where I learned how to play this game--La Mirada GC was one of these. While it was situated on some spectacular Merion-style topography, the biggest crime is that it suffers by weak greens and ill-placed bunkering. You could say the same for so many of the other courses he did in this area. And he isn't totally to blame (BBJr.) it was more then likely the people who he was designing for.

Although I will stand by my thinking that creating a par 70 public golf course with 6 par 3's is an open invitation to 6 hour golf rounds. (Such is the case of La Mirada) BB Jr. does have some stuff that has evolved ok, its just not what I would call done in the same vein as something by Donald Ross.


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2001, 11:45:00 AM »
I knew a couple of real stinkers in Southern Rhodesia, but let's keep to stuff built in the last couple of years.

Has anyone played the 14th hole at Pasadera G.C.? From the middle tees it's a 180 yard carry across a steep canyon that practically touches the green. At the back of the green there is an abrupt fall away down to a very steep hill leading to OB territory. Very little room to bail out left and right. Wind is usually in your face. From the back tees at 205 yards, the contestants in the US Senior Amateur qualifying averaged well over 4.something strokes for the hole. Nicklaus can play it with his high long iron shots, not many of the members or locals can.


Gib_Papazian

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2001, 04:00:00 PM »
Bob,
Neal and I played it together and the hole was his idea when he routed out the course many years ago.

The problem as I see it is the putting surface. Absolutely the most contrived, over-the-top, indulgent thing on what is an incredibly poorly designed course.

The 220 tee is a bit silly - and was not in the original plans before Jack and Co. got their hands on it - but the contours of the landing area actually shoulder the ball away into trouble.

I didn't know if Neal was going to cry or vomit when he saw what Nicklaus did to his routing plan.

Plus, they want $250 a head to play it . . . that development is not going to make it if they don't stop trying to act as if they are something special.

That said, the clubhouse was the most beautifully done new structure I've seen in a long time.

Great place for dinner, but the golf course is another Nicklaus debacle.


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2001, 04:29:00 PM »
My vote for the worst hole I've ever seen would be #1 at Secession.

Were the hole later in the round perhaps I wouldn't mind, but for an opening hole it must be the dumbest thing I've seen in golf.

Tim Weiman

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2001, 06:31:00 PM »
Gib:

They have closed the operation on Mondays. Real estate sales slowing,I am glad I did not invest. You are right about the club-house and staff, all first rate. The course.........I'll leave it to Tom Doak to rate(or berate).


ForkaB

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2001, 05:58:00 AM »
Bob and Gib

I played with Gib and Neal (how soon they forget ), and I'd call the 14th at Pasadera one of the few interesting holes on the course (along with the 2nd, which Gib also didn't like!).  From the back tees it is incredibly demanding, but that's what back tees ought to be all about, IMO.  Part of the problem is that the green is canted to accept shots from the forward tees, which are located to the left, so from the back markers, ir slopes sharply right to left.  Sure, you need a classic Nicklausian fade with a mid-long iron to hold the green, but is that at all unexpected from JN Design?  My Goodaleanly cut 4-iron was struck with 98% efficiency and so hit the top of the front bunker, rather than the front of the green, from which it would have rolled fairly stiff.  The 4 I got was pretty ho hum.

A great opportunity missed to have had a truly great hole--not a bad hole, by any means.


Gib_Papazian

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2001, 07:33:00 AM »
Rich,

I remember exactly who we played with. The difference is that you were not quite as flabbergasted as I was.

We might have gotten around to discussing it last night, except that between my son crawling under the table and your daughter bopping you on the head with a balloon, we never quite finsihed our conversation. . .:-)


Tom_Egan

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2001, 09:55:00 AM »
Here's a vote for one the NYC area people may appreciate -- at St. Andrews (Note to Tommy N. - Westchester County, not Scotland -postpone the heart attack).  Early on the back nine, about # 11 I think, is a Jack Nicklaus designed par 5 that is truly a monument to what a great game golf is that we can survive it.  Drive to a wide, flat fairway on this 540ish yard hole.  You'll find your ball about 20-40 yards short of a VERY steep decline.  From your ball, you can see nothing beyond the drop-off except, on a clear day, the NYC skyline.  So far, so good, right?  Not so fast.  The grade from the drop-off until just a few yards short of the green is constant at about 45 degrees.  If you don't hit the green on your second, and most cannot, you have -- best case -- the most severe downhill lie you can imagine.  HOWEVER -- the playable portion of the second shot landing zone is only about 15% of the potential hitting area.  The remainder is high scrub and massive rocks -- "no look" territory.  Thus you not only can't see where your ball is going, you can't see where it went.

I officiated a USGA Senior Open qualifier there about 10 years ago when their tour was nearby and a lot of good players were entered.  I've never seen or heard such a ruckus!  More 8's, 10's and WD's than you can imagine.

Enough time and criticism has gone by that the hole may have since been changed.  One can only hope.


David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2001, 05:22:00 AM »
No list of the worst holes in America could be complete without number #13 (I am almost certain) at the Fortress in Frankenmuth Michigan.  As an aside, Frankenmuth would finish very high on the worst cities in the world and if Jean-Paul Sartre was correct, it is probably where I am destined to spend eternity.  #13 is a 453-yard par four.  Starting 180 yards from the tee and going for 200 yards are two parallel lakes twenty yards apart.  Your options are to lay up 160 yards off the tee and then hit 3-wood, wedge into the green or feather your driver into a twenty yard wide fairway with no rough and water on both sides.  I never met Dick Nugent (Maybe they are incorrect and the course was designed by Ted Nugent) but he had to have been stoned when he designed this atrocity.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2001, 07:22:00 AM »
David Wigler --

If Sartre was correct, you'll spend eternity standing on the 13th tee -- waiting for that group ahead of you to stop retrieving balls from the parallel hazards!

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2001, 07:27:00 AM »
... almost all of them Top Flite XLs.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2001, 07:31:00 AM »
Dan,

As horrible an eternity as that might be, Frankenmuth houses Bronners.  Bronners bills itself as the worlds largest and only 24-hour Christmas ornament store.  I think it would be even worse to be forever dodging blue hairs in motorized carts who think I might grab the last "Tiny Tim crying in the window" ornament.

And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

BillV

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2001, 08:17:00 PM »
Two, no three terrible jobs of butting into the hill from Colorado......and on the first two, the further forward you play (i.e. less ability to get it airborne, etc) the more uphill the tee shot is

#9 at Cordillera Mountain
#6 The Ridge at Castle Pines

Both require tee shots with quite lofted clubs to reach the fairways of these short par 4's.

But the 2nd shot at the 9th at Country Club at Castle Pines requires a very uphill second (If you are "lucky" enough) to get your tee ball into position.  The entire uphill of the shot is sagebrush and is  (Help me here Doug Wright) over 100 feet.  God awful holes all 3, but CCCP #9 is the clear winner.


Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2001, 09:19:00 AM »
BillV,

Yes #9 CC at Castle Pines is the worst of many bad holes on the course. It's a 5-6 iron and then a wedge/sandwedge up a 75 foot hill to a nothing green. They routed 8 holes and then said, "Oh, where are we gonna put the 9th?"

For some reason I don't mind #6 at The Ridge at Castle Pines North. The uphill is not so steep and placement off the tee determines whether you're blind or not and whether you have an uphill or downhill stance.

Doug

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Patrick_Mucci

What's the worst hole you've ever seen?
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2001, 10:52:00 AM »
Tom Egan,

It's hole # 12 at ST. Andrews in Hasting on the Hudson, N.Y.

To get to the tee on Hole # 11 you have to be carted from # 10 green, unless you have time on your hands and brought your mountain climbing gear with you.

I have a great affinity for # 12, since I birdied it to qualify for the SR AM.  
Would I like to play it again, I don't think so.


In speaking to those familiar with the course, pre-Nicklaus, and post-Nicklaus, most seemed to have liked the pre-Nicklaus holes and routing much better.  Never having seen the pre-Nicklaus course, but some of the remaining pre-Nicklaus holes and abandoned holes which are still there, they seemed pretty neat.

I didn't care for # 10, 11, or 12, and I can see how three over par for those holes can pick up shots on the field.

Tom, what really amazed me was that holes
#'s 11 and 12 seemed like the ideal spot for condo's/houses, with those elevated views.  Why he chose to put two poor holes in a prime housing location is beyond me.


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