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NAF

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« on: October 18, 2001, 10:20:00 AM »
Ran,

Curious to see what would be your list for Doak's 31 flavors of golf..or which courses by which designers are your favorite.  Again, not necessarily the best they did but the ones you might say take a friend or your daughter to see one day..I would be interested to see your Raynor choice...


Ran Morrissett

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »
Noel,

In a rough chronological order, I would go:

1. St. Andrews
2. Prestwick - the 1st,3rd,4th, 5th, 13th, and 17th holes are too crucial to leave it off and it nips North Berwick.
3. Royal St. Georges - in part because so many people had a hand in its evolution and yet it still works beautifully well.
4. Myopia Hunt - Leeds is a man who must be represented and understood because of his  influence on those that followed
5. National Golf Links of America - Macdonald
6. Swinley Forest - Colt's best
7. Pine Valley - Crump
8. Westward Ho! - Fowler's redo is the ultimate in low profile architecture. Plus the course presents more hazards than any other good course on earth.
9.Essex County - Ross's most diverse site
10. Brora - James Braid, man's hand is hardly evident
11. Maidstone - Willie Park, Jr.
12. Royal Ashdown Forest - a bunkerless course needs to be on here somewhere
13. Garden City - Emmet & Travis low profile essay on course design on a relatively flat site.
14. Somerset Hills - Tillinghast, such a joy
15. Jasper Park - Stanley Thompson
16. Yale - Seth Raynor, for his engineering prowess
17. Royal Melbourne - its heroic scale nips Cypress
18. Riviera - George Thomas' strategic masterpiece
19. Pebble Beach - Egan, impossible to overstate how good this design is
20. Ballybunion Old - superior to Simpson's work at Cruden Bay
21. West Sussex-Sir Campbell,Hutchison et al
22. Taconic - Stiles and Van Kleek
23. Shinnecock Hills - William Flynn deservedly hits his grandslam home run
24. Paraparaumu Beach - Alex Russell's clever gem
25. Newcastle GC - Eric Apperly's perfect use of the rolling sand dunes
26. Meadowbrook, Long Island - Dick Wilson's big course maintains a certain originality to this day and provides good contrast against all the others on this list.
27. Waterville - Hackett's best by miles and a real study into how sand dunes/links courses are formed
28. High Pointe - Tom Doak, has more unique holes than Pacific Dunes
29. Kapalua Plantation - C&C, in showing how to deal with extreme topo/weather
30. Chung Shan Hot Springs -  Nicklaus's best design, especially noteworthy for its sidehill architecture
31. Kiawah Ocean - Pete Dye, for his skillfull, wall to wall earthmoving

Out of all of them, first stop would be Westward Ho! because it offers more diverse types of hazards than St. Andrews and yet, the need to think and to control the ball in the wind from an akward stance is just as high as at the Old Course.

Cheers,


Ken_Cotner

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2001, 01:52:00 PM »
Ran,

Pretty incredible right off the top of your head.  Have a XXXX on me!

KC


Jeff_Mingay

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2001, 02:04:00 PM »
Ran,

How do I become "the friend" you take on this trip?!?!

jeffmingay.com

brad_miller

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2001, 02:31:00 PM »
Ran, we'll all buy your book!

Jeff_Lewis

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »
Incredible off the cuff response, Ran. After you play Quaker, I hope it will supplant Somerset as your tillie choice. I would definitely take cypress or crystal over royal melbourne.

Ben C. Dewar

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2001, 06:24:00 PM »
Great list, unfortunately I have seen only a few of them.

Perhaps this should be on my next fifty.

Regards


Jason_Henham

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2001, 06:38:00 PM »
Jeff Lewis,

Why would you take Cypress Point or Crystal Downs over Royal Melbourne?

Jason


NAF

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2001, 03:59:00 AM »
Ran,

GREAT STUFF!!! I was hoping to find a few places to put on the horizon for next year to experience and you gave me more than a few..

But I am surprised you take Kapalua over Sand Hills?  I guess it does show off their talents more because of the extreme nature of the land...Was that the only reasoning behind it?


Jeff_Lewis

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2001, 04:08:00 AM »
Jason,
When we played Royal Melbourne, we expected to like the A.M. 18 as much or more than the composite...what a shock to discover that the best "golf course" on the property really does require the contribution of the best of the Russell 18. Unfortunately, I don't think the magazines should rate a course that essentially does not exist for anyone to play. Quaker Ridge and Winged Foot are contiguous...National and Shinnecock are contiguous, but that doesn't mean that I can create some layout that uses holes from both courses and say it is really a golf course.

kilfara

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2001, 04:49:00 AM »
Ran,

Why does a bunkerless course "need" to be on your list? I don't understand that at all.

Great list, though. You really need to get out less!

Cheers,
Darren


SPDB

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2001, 05:06:00 AM »
I don't have any gripe with composite courses (RM, TCC), provided it is part of the same club/course. Shinnecock/NGLA could never develop a composite course that is manageable. And with respect to Quaker/WF, they are not really contiguous at all. Close, yes, but they are separated by a row of houses and Griffen Avenue.

Can someone explain to me this 31 flavors idea? I presume it's 31 different architects.

Sean


Tim_Weiman

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2001, 05:37:00 AM »
Ran:

I like your list.

But, I can't agree with your Doak selection.  Wouldn't Stonewall make more sense?  Doesn't the ambiance of the place alone make it more worth seeing than High Pointe?

Tim Weiman

Jeff_Lewis

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2001, 06:07:00 AM »
Sean,
I was being a little facetious. Since one cannot play the front nine at ngla and then move over to shinny for a few, it is not a golf course. Well, one can also not start on the west and move back to the east at royal melbourne, unless one is in the president's cup. As for the 31 flavors, I think it is an homage to baskin and robbins...Doak's book is supposed to be 31 different architects and his favorite of each...

Paul Turner

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2001, 06:07:00 AM »
Ran

A fine list  

From previous comments on this board though, I'm really surprised you picked Prestwick over N Berwick.

You state, that Swinley is Colt's BEST (not just your favourite), it's a great course, but do you actually RANK it higher than Portrush or Muirfield?

Brora must be great to beat Pennard in the untouched links category (that also has some credit to Braid).

I guess that you left old Aber's Addington off because you wanted it to be different from Tom Doak's 31?



Ran Morrissett

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2001, 07:41:00 AM »
Jeff Lewis,

I agree with you and I cross out "Composite" and write "West" every other year on the GOLF Magazine ballot. However, I disagree with you on the merit of the West course because I reckon it is definitely world top 10 on its own merits. The West's 3-12 is as good as it gets anywhere in the world plus 17-18 provide a superior finish to either CPC or CD.

As for Quaker Ridge, out of curiousity, how untouched of a Tillie is it? Somerset, WF West and now Fenway are soooooo pure that it contributes to my high regard for them.

Noel,

You got it - I maintain that Kapalua is their best design while Sand Hills is their best course. By all rights, the Plantation Course should just be another forgettable Hawaiian course because the property really is over-the-top severe. Plus, it offers such unique shots - going for the 18th green from 300 yards out is a once in a lifetime experience.

Noel, when you say you'll see'em, I know you mean it! Hopefully, a group of us can go to Cape Breton Highlands and Casa de Campo next year - who knows, maybe they should be on the list above?

Darren,

Bunkers are used as crutches by 99% of the architects - it is an awesome treat to play a place where the architects couldn't fall back on such artificial devices but rather had to painstakingly max out the NATURAL features of the property.

Tim,

I haven't played Stonewall, so it wasn't a candidate, but if ambience was the key criteria, Loch Lomond and Skibo would blow past all the U.S. courses.

Paul,

I hate to forgo especially the 16th green at North Berwick but holes 1,3,13,15,and 17 from Prestwick could possibly make my all-world eclectic list whereas only the 13th might make it from North Berwick (16 goes to Cypress   and there are better Redans than the 15th)

The Addington bit the dust to West Sussex, in part because West Sussex's architects had a greater reach and impact than the unfortunately few works of the legendary Abercombry. Plus given how relatively close they are in quality, at some point you have to deduct points from The Addington for its neglected playing conditions.

As for Pennard, the changes that the locals oversaw to the painfully overbuilt-up and forced 5th green complex make Brora a cinch winner in that regard.

I do have Swinley ranked ahead of Muirfield but not Portrush, you're right. However, Portrush's narrowness and tall, tall grasses makes me wonder why.

Cheers,


NAF

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Ran,

Royal County Down
E-Club
Portmarnock
Woking
West Sussex
Addington?

Slated all for early November in 3 weeks..Some with Jim Reilly (-: who hopefully won't hit any wildlife this time out like at Shinnecock.

And Oz trip planned for Feb/March..

Yes, I am a golf whore...but it is a good life


Paul Turner

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2001, 08:05:00 PM »
Ran

Yes the 5th at Pennard does look somewhat artificial.  Still it's an attractive shot with the gorge backdrop.

Any idea what the original green looked like and wasn't the 4th green moved too, because of liabilty concerns?


Ben C. Dewar

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2001, 08:13:00 PM »
Ran,
What little contribution I can make here.  I hope that you can make it to Cape Breton (and I can, for that matter), I think it is a better course then Jasper.  Though as I stated Jasper is one of the best "places" I have ever played golf.

Noel,
What is on your itinerary for Australia?  I am hoping to go in January or February to Australia, I would love to hear your lineup.

Ben


NAF

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2001, 08:18:00 PM »
Ben,

Jim Reilly and I are hoping to hit over 5 days..

Royal Melbourne
Kingston Heath
Commonwealth
Victoria
Yarra Yarra
The National (RTJ or the new Norman course)

and or:
Barwon Heads
The Metropolitan.

We don't have firm dates yet and were hoping to maybe meet some down under GCA people down there...

What is your email, I will let you know when we have dates...


Ran Morrissett

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2001, 08:24:00 PM »
I would definitely forgo Yarra Yarra for a day at Bondi Beach and NSW Golf Club - Noel, as a single man, you owe it to yourself!!

Jeff_Lewis

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Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2001, 08:33:00 PM »
ran, i agree about nsw! and bondi too...

as for qr's level of trauma from jones and son...rtj put in one particularly bad teebox that i can think of that we will pull out, but one can just play the original box now...and rees built a horrendous series of bunkers on the 14th...good news is that they are an exception...when you come i will show you an overhead from the 30s of the hole. The bunkering is like original bethpage-quality stuff...off the charts...and I hope to someday see that restored.


Slag_Bandoon

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2001, 08:40:00 PM »
 My list is all vanilla with a few sampling spoons of dunes.  

Ben C. Dewar

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2001, 09:48:00 AM »
Noel,
I just talked to Ran and he gave me a better idea of the courses.  I have no set dates, but a good buddy of mine is down in Australia for some time so I wanted to meet up with him while he was there.

My email is:   bencd@golftravelinformation.com


Ben C. Dewar

Ran's 31 Flavors of Golf
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2001, 09:48:00 AM »
Noel,
I just talked to Ran and he gave me a better idea of the courses.  I have no set dates, but a good buddy of mine is down in Australia for some time so I wanted to meet up with him while he was there.

My email is:   bencd@golftravelinformation.com


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