[nandoal]

Out: Cherry Hills

In: Bel-Air CC

[Peter Pratt]

I've done some rough calculations from the posts on this thread. The following 7 courses received at least 5 votes to be deleted from the top 50:

Spyglass Hill
World Woods (PB)
Cherry Hills
Harbour Town
Medinah #3
Baltusrol (Lower)
Winged Foot (East)

These seven recievd the most votes to be added to the top 50:

Pasatiempo
Valley Club of Montecito
Plainfield
Wannamoisett
Pete Dye GC
The Ocean Course
Kingsley Club

Any more voters? I don't think we've heard a definitive word from Matt Ward, among many others.

[THuckaby2]

I like World Woods better than Pasatiempo.  I think Pasa has a really superb back nine, but thought the front is wanting in stretches.

I also think a handful of greens are not meant to be played at modern speeds, and end up being a bit silly at times.  

For instance, did ANYONE in our group of 30 two putt #18

Mike:

Just to show that I do have some golf ego... and in this case it trumps thanking you for echoing a point I've made countless times in here (Pasa's greens are two quick for their contours these days), I have to ask one question:

Does a one-putt count?

 

TH

[THuckaby2]

And just what's wrong with a Mackenzie lovefest?  

Top 50?  Who knows.  For me it seems obvious to agree with the others and boot Spyglass in favor of Pasa... as much as I do like Spyglass - and like it I do, I was reminded of it two weeks ago - Pasa does seem to me to be the superior golf course overall.  As for Valley Club, well... again, if we put Pasa in there VC would seem to belong....

But I also wouldn't argue with anyone who said neither course belongs in US top 50... that is a very exclusive list without a doubt, and Mackenzie's work is not everyone's cup of tea.

TH

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Where do you rank Aronimink on this list?  Have you had a chance to see/play the course restoration?

[Michael Whitaker]

OUT:  Cascades

IN:  The Ocean Course

[Top100Guru]

Out>>>>>> Victoria National......I think only Politics and $$$ (lots of) got this course in there.......and.....Shadow Creek, again, how does a "Totally Manufactured Course" like this crack the Top 50??  Both of these courses are "Good Tracks", but come on, lower 90's at best. How can you leave out clubs like Hollywood and Fenway and have these ranked so highly?

IN>>>>>>> Both The Golf Club and Shoreacres!!!!!!!

[David Wigler]

Top100

Just out of curiosity, have you played either Shadow Creek or Victoria National?

[SPDB]

Out: WW-PB
IN: Johns Island West

keeping both regional and architect integrity

Out: Ocean Forest
In: Newport

seaside integrity intact

Out: Inverness
In: The Ocean Course

can't think of any others right now.

[jim_lewis]

I don't understand why some folks seem to think that it is important to consider the architect or geography when identifying the best golf courses. It seems to me that the best 50 (or what ever #) courses should be based on the quality of the course, period, regardless of who designed it or where it is located.  THEORETICALLY, if a single architect could design the 50 best courses in a single geographical area, I would designate all 50 as the best.  I see no merit in trying to manage how many architects are represented or in assuring geographical balance.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim;

I completely agree.  I think charges of "regionalism" in the ratings are unfounded, and I know that those raters I respect the most really try to get around the country to get a good taste and flavor of the best in each area.

The simple truth is that the predominance of the best courses are concentrated to certain areas, with notable exceptions.

[Matt_Ward]

I'm out of area as I write this but after giving it some study here goes a listing of my personal 50 best.

I have not played Augusta or Chicago so I mention that right up front and therefore cannot include them. Ditto all the comments people have posted regarding Friar's Head.

Let me also mention that I've left a few spaces blank (4 in total) from my personal top 50 since there's always some "new" course that may challenge for a spot. Here goes ...

Top Ten (in no personal order)

Shinnecock Hills (the best course in the USA IMHO)

Oakmont

Cypress Point

Pine Valley

Pinehurst #2

The Golf Club (Pete's best I've played including Teeth of Dog)

Merion / East

Winged Foot / West (the most intense second shot course)

NGLA (if you love "pure" architecture one needs to see it)

Sand Hills (a surreal experience)



2nd Ten

Plainfield (deserves no less a placement)

Pebble Beach

Prairie Dunes

Camargo (the best Raynor I've played thus far)

Seminole

Pacific Dunes

Pete Dye

Wannamoisett (the best middleweight course I've played)


3rd Ten

SFGC

Bethpage / Black

Crystal Downs

TPC Stadium

Bandon Dunes

Riviera

Olde Kinderhook (the best Rees course I've played and is vastly underrated because of its location in Albany NY)

The Kingsley Club (after giving it some thought I can't say anything less about the course -- superb fun indeed!)

Muirfield Village

TCC


4th Ten

The Ocean Course (the Darth Vader of sheer intensity!)

Fisher's Island

Karsten Creek (very underrated TF design -- just watch the NCAA's this week)

Ocean Hammock (dynamite layout by Jack -- how it doesn't get rated above so much in FL by GD, GW, and GM is beyond me!)

Arcadia Bluffs

Olympic / Lake

Whistling Straits

Black Mesa (people need to see this wonderful Baxter Spann design just outside of Santa Fe)

Inverness


5th Ten

Valley Club of Montecito (how GD dropped this course from the top 100 is indeed puzzling -- Mackenzie gold!) When others mention the qualities of Somerset Hills I'd point them in the direction of Santa Barbara to see how such a short course can be so compelling.

Milwaukee (the one course often overlooked from Wisconsin)

Whisper Rock (the "new" Desert Forest)

Chapparal Pines (replaces Forest Highlands Canyon Course as best in the ponderosa area / Gary Panks did a first rate effort and the course loses out to the "eye candy" approach you find at the neighboring The Rim).

Hollywood / NJ (how the course doesn't get listed among the top magazines escapes me).

Skokie (superb restoration by R.Prichard -- how it goes so underappreciated escapes me. In many ways it's the
Plainfield of the Chicago area.

Wolf Creek / Mesquite NV (like it better than Shadow Creek and it offers more thrills and fun than most can imagine even with a hole or two that borders on insanity!). Shadow is a wonderful testament to the ability of man to conquer the terrain -- I just see Wolf Creek being such a wild and exciting adventure although I admit it won't be everyone else's cup of tea).

Chirichua (Desert Mountain) replaces Desert Highlands as the best Nicklaus course in the Scottsdale area and highlights the "new" Nicklaus approach. Makes you play all the shots and doesn't overdose on difficulty as the Geronimo. Jack did a first rate effort with a superb short par-4 in the 2nd hole, to name just one example -- ditto the back-to-back par-4's 9th and 10th.

Olympia Fields / North (liked the course prior to all the Open changes. Have not played it since all the existing work was completed but the greens and bunker work when I was there was indeed first rate stuff.

On my last note you'll see a few of Pete Dye courses sprinkled throughout my listing. I've said this before but I see him as the finest architect in the last half of the 20th century and wanted to include a number of his most significant efforts. Others such as Harbour Town and even Oak Tree (ahead of Honors) and the Stadium at PGA West would likely make my top 100 listing.

I also like Pasatiempo and World Woods / Pine Barrens but don't believe they have the stuff to make my top 50 although I would certainly recommend anyone to play them when in the area.

Let the bullets fly ...

[THuckaby2]

No bullets here, Matt.  That's a hell of a list and even though I find Pebble in the 2nd ten to be shocking, I can see a strong argument for each of your first ten being superior.. not that I'd agree, but I can see the argument!

It's a hell of a fine list and you're brave to submit it.  Well done.

TH

[larry_munger]

Matt Ward, LACC, Southern Hills, Garden City, Maidstone? All in all a pretty good list, hard not to enjoy a round on those tracks

[David Kelly]

Matt,
I played Ocean Hammock last month and I was also pleasantly surprised.  Options off the tee, interesting green sites, contoured greens - maybe my favorite Nicklaus course.  Water comes into play often but unlike many Florida courses it doesn't feel like you are island hopping.

I wish Jack had been able to incorporate more ocean views into the course but with no elevation change at all it would have required a lot of earth moving which unlike many of his other courses didn't seem to be too prevalent at OH. There was refreshingly little mounding. I would, however, have raised the tee box on #8 in order to give the golfers an ocean view.  My favorite hole on the course was #15.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  I just swallowed my gum!

I will give you credit as an independent thinker.  And I haven't played several of the newer courses you rate in your top fifty, so I can't really comment on them directly ... but in total, I think your list looks pretty silly.

I HAVE been to the Pete Dye Golf Club, The Kingsley Club, Arcadia Bluffs, Milwaukee CC and Skokie and while all of them have some good points (except for Arcadia) I would never give any of them a look at the top fifty ... so it's hard to give your other favorites that much benefit of the doubt.

If you're right, I lost out on getting the job at two of the top 50 courses in America:  Karsten Creek and Olde Kinderhook.  Tom Fazio and Rees Jones must be better architects than me, because I didn't think either property could go quite that high.

[Peter Pratt]

Tom, what's your take on Arcadia Bluffs?

[Mike_Sweeney]

If you're right, I lost out on getting the job at two of the top 50 courses in America:  Karsten Creek and Olde Kinderhook.  Tom Fazio and Rees Jones must be better architects than me, because I didn't think either property could go quite that high.

Tom,

I must say I have really enjoyed this exercise. I think you stated earlier that all of the courses listed above are 7's which goes to show the difficulty for the raters when you get below the Top 25 or so.

In 1910 when Merion Cricket Club optioned the 130 some acres of land on Ardmore Avenue for The East, who would think that it would consistently maintain a Top 10 rating, even in today's era where length has at least changed people's views of the older courses? Even back then there was some housing in the area. I would love to see an old picture of the quarry pre-construction if anyone has it. In 90+% of the cases, I agree with you that great land helps, but that is why I find Merion interesting relative to the various ratings. It is always dismissed as a former US Open course, yet it always seems to land in that 7-9 spot on most ratings. Interesting. It is hard to know how good Hugh Wilson was with only The East, The West and Cobbs Creek to look at.

Matt,

Since your pre-round predictons for me in reference to Essex County (NJ) were right on, it is hard to sling arrows at your list. Sticking with Tom's rules, I have only played one (Bethpage) of your bottom thirty, so I can't toss any of those selections.

What range would you put The Bridge and Twisted Dune? Top 100, Top 200 or beyond?

One other question, I am scheduled to drive through Pinehurst in late August, and #2 is on my list. I must say that I have always thought of #2 as a "Greens First" type of course, and I don't think of you as a "Greens First" type of guy, thus I was surprised to see it on your Top 10. Am I wrong in my assumptions?

[Matt_Ward]

Let me respond to all the naysayers that my list inspired. First, to all those gutless wonders who have not posted their listing -- I have just two words for you folks -- PIPE DOWN!

Tom Doak, you say my listing is silly, however, let me point out a few things on the ones you listed.

Garden City Golf Club needs to turn off the H20 big time. The course has become too slow because people see the need for green grass ahead of the playing virtues the course was meant to have -- i.e. fast and firm conditions. When tee shots hit and roll just a few yards there is a major distortion on how the course should play.

Shoreacres is another one of your gem picks. This Raynor Course is sleepsville  . Yes, I've played my fair share of Raynor Courses and how Shoreacres is held in the esteem it is by so many people makes me wonder what wacki tobaci they've been smoking. Tom, I don't know if you've seen Skokie since it's restoration but it kicks butt against Shoreacres in my book.

Oakland Hills / South -- Last year's US Amateur showed me what this "past" monster has lost. The course is still a fine layout but give me Kingsley or Arcadia for pure fun and excitement anytime.

Maidstone -- please help me stop laughing. The dunes holes ARE the only reason to play this course. If the club wasn't so neatly located just down the road from SH and NGLA it would be doubtful to have garnered the ink that it does.

Tom, you have not seen Olde Kinderhook and Karsten Creek. When you ACTUALLY PLAY THEM then tell me where I'm wrong. Throwing forward a smug comment about what TF and RJ may have done to such property as compared to your talents is being a bit presumptious -- don't you think? By the way Ocean Forest is a fine club -- but OK is a tad better.

I believe Milwaukee is a superior course and I've played it a few times over the years when in the greater Chicago area. I look at the listing you provided with M Lauer and you have some so-so calls on your own. Somerset Hills? Yes, a fine layout by Tillie but not ahead of Hollywood as it is NOW. Tom, you need to update your research and get back out in the field.

Redanman: Yes, I do like Olde Kinderhook that much -- last I checked I don't recall seeing your listing.

I'm on the run now but I'll reply in greater detail later today.

[JohnV]

I would take the following 4 out:

Spyglass
World Woods
Cascades
Harbour Town

and put the following 4 in:

Pasatiempo
Peachtree
Cuscowilla - At least for me, the best modern parkland course I've seen.
Fox Chapel  - I have only seen 3 Raynor courses.  Fox Chapel was way ahead of the other two which aren't on this list (although a faithful restoration of Yale might get it there.)  If there is one course in the Pittsburgh area that I could play every day, this would be it.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

I love Pinehurst #2 because driving the ball is tested (those who are fans of Rustic Canyon should see how tee game strategy is integrated the way Ross has done at #2) -- you need to get into the right positions because although the fairway are wide the "preferred" position is always needed if you want to make a low score on any given hole.

What's really interesting is that I've played #2 more times than any other top ten listing I put forward with the exception of a few of the NY / NJ area ones I listed.

To those posting / lurking:

Too many people really have not visited a number of outstanding modern courses that have come forward recently with the exception of Sand Hills, Pac and Bandon Dunes. The politically correct impulse is to simply list the "usual suspects" from years gone back and automatically concede them their due. I know there are a quite a few people on GCA who travel quite extensively and will bear me out when I say that there are some unique and first rate gems that have come on board recently.

Tom Doak:

One last thing -- if you really analyze your listing and mine you'll find plenty of agreement. You seem to favor Honors over Pete Dye GC -- so be it. I believe Pete Dye GC is one of his best efforts and placed it with the others I've chosen. You also pick Quaker Ridge and leave off Plainfield -- again a different of opinion. Winged Foot / East is also a fine club but is it really top 50 or does it gain from having big brother / West Course being right next door?

[Paul_Turner]

Tom Doak

You have room for Winged Foot East and yet only give at 6 in your book (you give Milwaukee a 7)?  Do you prefer WFE now?

I haven't played many of these (5).  But I'd thow out Bethpage (and piss of Geoff Childs) but replace it with Yale (make him happy).

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

At the end of the day, this is all a matter of opinion.  You can't prove your point and I can't prove mine.

Part of the purpose of this thread was that several GCA doyens have taken to coming on and raving about a new course and it has been very hard to put this in perspective without seeing the total picture.  Now we have seen your total picture.  You're way out on a limb, and you've taken a lot of weight with you.

Your selections of modern courses to include are interesting for what's not there.  You aren't going with particular architects -- you're not a shill for me or Bill Coore or Mike Strantz or Jim Engh or Rees Jones, or anyone, and that's good, I guess.  I wonder if your choices are site-driven or whether you're deliberately avoiding trying to be pegged as someone's fan.

I can't find any pattern at all, really.  Most of your new-course selections are ball-buster hard golf courses, some of them overdone in my opinion; but then you leave off others of the same type.  [Isn't Arcadia Bluffs just Royal New Kent with a lake view?]

Stranger still, you take me to task over Somerset Hills to include Hollywood [a very similar course which would have had my consideration for top 50 UNTIL someone blew up the 17th hole and wrecked the continuity], and you rail against my leaving Winged Foot East in the top 50 when you put Winged Foot West ahead of National, Sand Hills and Pebble Beach.

I really hope Black Mesa, Wolf Creek, Whisper Rock and some of your other choices are as good as you say, when I finally get there for myself to find out.  But, since we don't agree about quite a few others, I'll have to have my doubts for now.

[Mark_Fine]

Isn't this fun!  Great example of why no one should complain about any of the Top 100 lists (yet we all still will)!  Heck, we can't even agree on the top 50 which should be much easier.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
I'm just curious, you seem to put quite a bit of weight on conditioning?  If you showed up at Garden City one day and the course was dry and fast, would it immediately jump into the top 50?  Look at the condition of The Black these days.  Not exactly what you would expect to find on a Top 50 layout.  Does that drop that one down in your opinion as well?  

Also, I know you are very much a believer that a great golf course must be able to test the best players (tour calibur).  Trust me, Oakland Hills is all the test every player but the best of the best will ever need.  

Again we all have our reasons and I know you've seen a lot of courses so I do value your opinions.  I'm just trying to better understand your own "rating criteria".
Mark

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