[Tom_Doak]

The Black Mesa thread and other recent ones make me wonder just how good the proponents of these courses think they really are ... and how much room Matt Ward has in his top fifty for places like The Bridge.

So I thought I'd try to find out here.  Below I will list the top 50 courses in America according to GOLF Magazine in 2001.  Then, I'll be the first to say which courses I think should be out of their top fifty, and which should replace them.

The most important point to remember:  you can't put a course in unless you are voting OFF a course which you have played.  This way it doesn't matter much how many of the top fifty you have actually played.

Here are the top 50 according to Matt Lauer & myself and a few others:

Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Augusta, Shinnecock
Pinehurst #2, Sand Hills, Merion, Oakmont, Seminole
Winged Foot West, SFGC, Prairie Dunes, National GL, Crystal Downs
Oakland Hills, Pacific Dunes, Fishers Island, Chicago GC, Olympic
The Country Club, Oak Hill E, Baltusrol Lwr, Muirfield Village, Riviera
Southern Hills, Bethpage Black, The Golf Club, Whistling Straits, Camargo
Medinah #3, TPC at Sawgrass, Garden City, Winged Foot E, LA North
Quaker Ridge, Shoreacres, Inverness, Maidstone, Shadow Creek
Bandon Dunes, Scioto, Spyglass Hill, Harbour Town, World Woods (Pine Barrens)
Ocean Forest, Somerset Hills, The Honors Cse, Cascades (Upper), Cherry Hills

That's fifty!

[Tom_Doak]

The courses I would throw overboard are Oak Hill E, Baltusrol Lwr, Scioto, Spyglass Hill, and The Honors Course.  Luckily for them, I've never actually played Medinah #3 or Cherry Hills.

I would certainly vote for The Valley Club of Montecito.

I'd like to vote for Myopia Hunt Club and Wannamoissett, but I didn't get to play them.  I'd also like to put in one of Flynn's courses in eastern PA, but there are five or six of them I can't choose between, and no room for all six.  Fenway is close, too.

But at the end of the day, I'll vote for Long Cove and The Ocean Course at Kiawah, the Plantation Course at Kapalua, and Lost Dunes.

(If you think putting two of my own courses in the top fifty is outrageous, you should have seen some of the architects' ballots I used to get!)

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Doak:

I like the way you've asked the question. It's easy to say "its Top 50" after the course has made its initial impression, but the passage f time has a way of changing things.

I'm going to dismiss two courses I enjoyed during my one and only visit: Whistling Straits and World Woods.

Over three days at Whistling Straits I had a ball, but I can't honestly say I would enjoy it long term over either Blackwolf Run's River course or the Ocean Course.

As for World Woods, I'd love to go back. But, I wonder if it is the entire complex - including the practice facility - that really still stands out in my mind and Pine Barrens, while very good, not quite Top 50 material.

So, at the risk of embarrassing you, I'll take Stonewall over World Woods. It's a golf course I'd like to play at least once a year. I can't say the same for World Woods.

[ForkaB]

This thread illustrates why the concept of ranking in strict numerical order is just a fool's game.  I've been lucky enough to play 13 of those "Top 50" courses, and while I can be relatively confident in saying, for example that Shinnecock is a "better" course than Spyglass, whether or not it is 46 places better or 6 or 146, I just cannot say and would not even want to have to say.

The first 3*** restaurant I dined in was Villa Lorraine in Brussels in 1975.  I had had a fair amount of good nosh before and my father was a reasonsbly well respected restauratuer in NYC, but this was just something else.  I was a step change, a quantum leap over what I had experienced before.

Similarly, when after a very sporadic and desultory golfing career in my early years in which I was fortunate enough to play some reasonably good tracks like Winchester, Myopia, Ponte Vedra, Woods Hole, Wee Burn and Stanford, when I finally played Pebble Beach for the first time (in 1976), it blew me away too.

Both Villa Lorraine and Pebble Beach are (or were) 3*** courses.  Stanford and Goodale's never were and will never be.  You can spot the difference if you know anything about golf and/or food.  Can you tell whether any of these restaurants are #3 or #33 or #133 or not?  Not.

Why try?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

This is a wonderful question that you ask. I wonder though, and this I believe to be true in any system a person uses to rank courses, is how consistent the person ranking is in the application of the criteria he (or she) is using?

An example of what I mean is when you wrote, "I'd also like to put in one of Flynn's courses in eastern PA, but there are five or six of them I can't choose between, and no room for all six."  

Now it appears that you are saying here that you want to include a course simply because it is a "Flynn" course in a certain geographical location, rather than stating that "course A is a great design and has been overlooked for the following reasons." It appears that you want to "slot" a course in based on the designer, rather than evaluate it based on it's own individual characteristics.

Where this may be laudable, and proper respect for a "body of work" should raise our view of an architects ability when we think of "so-and-so's courses," it would be improper, at least to my mind, to include or rank a course based upon the criteria of, "I'd like to put in one of so-and-so's courses." What is being ranked are courses, not architects.

I am wondering if this is this the type of logic that gets some courses ranked, while others are on the outside looking in? I ask this because the rankings of courses have become such an important part of the marketting process for many courses.

Like everyone else here, I am most concerned about "purity of process," rather than making certain that a particular architect receive honors due.

By the way, I not only have no problem with an architect ranking his own courses, but would encourage it. I believe that we should trust "honor in golf" in all peripheral areas of the game, just as we trust "honor" in those we are playing with.

[brad_miller]

Spyglass Hill out, Friar's Head in. If Spyglass Hills dunes opening continued it would stay and I'd find something else to sub for FH.

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

Quickly glancing through that list, the first course I would throw out is Winged Foot East.  This has to be the most over-rated course I have ever seen on any list!  It is a good golf course, probably worthy of #180-200 on a list, but nothing about it sticks in my mind that makes it worthy of being called a "great" course, other than the fact that it shares a clubhouse with one of the top 5 course in the country, IMHO.  If WFE was a stand-alone course, I doubt very much that it would garner anywhere near the same respect that it does today.

To replace WFE?  According to my math, there are about 150 courses that could easily replace WFE on this list.

Therefore, I will choose a very under-rated but previously extremely well-respected gem that is getting polished up and by next spring (after the renovation work is completed) will deserve this type of honor, which is "My Home Course", Beverly Country Club.

[Jonathan Cummings]

I'll probably get tar and feathered for this but we just played Cascata and I believe it is Rees' best.  Out with Ocean Forest in with Cascata.  JC

[Steve Lapper]

This is an interesting mental exercise. I took it to one greater degree and confined it, for the most part, to making my substitutions regional and thus more relational. Here goes:

Friar's Head for Maidstone....this is a lay up as FH is a vastly more complete course. Granted, Maidstone has some truly exceptional holes, but quite a few weaker ones as well, something FH simply does not. This might cause quite a wing-beating buzz among the membership!

Plainfield for Baltusrol Lower...another lay up. BL has little or no great architectual character, no great rolling or unique terrain, no spectacular and specially situated holes..only a long and tough tradition of playing host to tourneys. PCC, on the other hand, has multiple lines of charm, great use of terrain, and many varied holes that look and play in a unique fashion.

Pasatiempo for Spyglass Hill...another easy 2 points! Routing, variety, shot value, lines of charm and character all define Pasa and all cease after the first 5 holes at SH.

Fenway for Winged Foot East...this is a tough one, but the recent renovations at Fenway have elevated this track to a special place. WFE is indeed a very very solid course, but uninspiring and relatively redundant in its layout. Inspiration, shot values and variety mark the new Fenway for elevation to this status.

Lastly, and out of geographic relation, I would agree with Tom and insert the Valley Club. IMHO it would replace World Woods or Cherry Hills. VC is a marvelous example of architectual integrity and charm. Its conditioning and playability make it attractive as a place to play every day of the year and each time would likely remain memorable. Neither CH or WW retain those qualities to the degree VC does.

  Since so much of our golf revolves around location, proximity and access, I strongly feel that my substitutions are 1000% valid and expose the folly of rating and qualitative review.

Note that with the exception of PCC and Pasatiempo, the others are real-time validations of new or renovated courses (something the raters usually always fail to credit). In the case of PCC and Pasa, the assignment of credit for professional tournament tradition is likely the swaying margin. That is not, IMHO, a fair value to assign a sound review of a course's test of golf. A test of public tradition perhaps, but not a test of golf and its important charms.

[Peter Pratt]

Tom, I love this exercise because it lets those of us who have played only 20 or so of the current top 100 get into the game. I reviewed my list of the best courses I've played and make four substitutions:

OUT: Spyglass Hill, World Woods, Cascades, and Harbour Town
IN: Pasatiempo, High Pointe, Kingsley, Kapalua (Plantation)

I very much like the ones I nixed, but I love the ones I added.

[Peter Pratt]

Oops, forgot the Ocean Course, one of my very favorites. That's in, and Medinah #3 is out.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil the Author:

Yes, one of the purposes of this exercise was to show that when you are really voting on this stuff, one of the things you try to do is find variety including geographic, and by designer.  Shivas has no qualms about favoring Pete Dye's work, but many do have such qualms.  Likewise, slapper tended to try to keep the geographic balance by pairing courses that are neighbors (Plainfield for Baltusrol, Fenway for Winged Foot East) ... he could just as easily have said Friars Head for Spyglass Hill, but he didn't.

The only one of the top fifty I haven't seen is Ocean Forest, so I don't know whether it really belongs there or not ... so Jonathan's substituting of Cascata for Ocean Forest means very little to me.  Last I remember Jonathan had Gary Player's Snowshoe Valley Resort, West (by God) Virginia in his top 50 courses, but he didn't choose to say so here!

However, Phil, you've got to trust me when I say that "Flynn" has nothing to do with my comment above.  It's not that I want to include Flynn (who does have Shinnecock and Cherry Hills, even though all six of the Philly courses are better than Cherry Hills).  It's that I really like those courses he did in Philadelphia, and I just don't know how to pick between them.  But, you've convinced me to do something ... so I'll replace Winged Foot East with Lancaster [or Lehigh, or Manufacturers, or Huntingdon Valley] ... for me, WFE is right in the pool with all those Philly courses anyway.

P.S. to Rich:  I know that you and Tom P. will likely abstain from this because of your aversion to ranking courses, and I understand your viewpoint.  But I think this exercise has a purpose.  It is just a bit too easy for someone in the blush of seeing a new course to say Portsalon is a 3-star course, instead of two, and thereby place it over a bunch of two-star courses which, in retrospect, it should not leap over.  Making someone throw another course overboard really makes them think about it a bit harder.

By the way, it's just a coincidence but pretty much all of the courses I chose are an 8 or higher on the Doak scale -- there must be right about fifty of them in the USA.  Most of the courses others have nominated would get a 7 from me, which means they're very close to the top 50 ... but then again, there must be a hundred other 7's.

Come on, David W. and Matt W. and all you others who are constantly pumping up new courses or hidden gems.  Come on Tommy N.!  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Here are the top 50 according to Matt Lauer & myself and a few others:

Matt,

We know you are lurking out there, step to plate and get in here

Tom,

I have not played many in the 35-50 area, which would be the logical courses to toss. Since I like Winged Foot East more than WF West, I am not going to toss that. It is rare that I would toss a seaside course for inland, but Spyglass would get tossed for Huntington Valley. 18 very solid to very good holes wins over "the first five and then the rest of the course."

As stated before, Yale has the potential to be there but....

[Jim_H]

My only two I would delete would be Seminole and Shadow Creek (it seems to me to be a darn good list).  But I can't think of any I would add that are better (unless maybe Pasatiempo).  So maybe I'd leave it as is.
I know I would take some grief on Seminole, but I think as a course, it is the most overrated in the US.  Great club, great membership, great clubhouse, great history--but a very ordinary golf course.  But it probably should be in the top 50 on tradition alone.
As to Shadow Creek, I was offended by the phoniness of it--but what should I have expected in Las Vegas?
As to Pasatiempo, it was obviously a great course at one time, but the encroachment of the houses has really hurt it in my mind.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Out: Bandon Dunes In:Kiawah
Out: Spyglass In:Pasatiempo
Out: Harbour Town In:Pete Dye GC
Out: Cascades In:Valley Club
Out: Ocean Forest In: Blackwolf Run

Seems Dye and Mackenzie are undervalued by Golf!

Jonathan,
I am interested to hear in what ways Cascata is better than Ocean Forest. One seems to be Rees more minimalist designs and the other...

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have played, or been on the property (like Augusta) 42 of the Golf Top 50.

I basically agree with Tom's assessment, and would take out Cherry Hills for sure.  Medinah, as the first course I ever played (age 12, next door neighbor was a member) is harder emotionally, but we'll have to see the Reesmodel.  hard to say, but I think the previous remodels did strengheh the course.  Scioto, Cascades, Spyglass all on the cusp for me.

Too busy to think which of the other 15,000 courses could replace them, or why.  I'll bet no one argues the top ten.  Each of those has the special qualities we can recognize, but not articulate.  After that, it kind of blends together.

No need to worry about bias, as courses like Cherry Hills were probaby put in the original list on the premise that one of our great western cities, like Denver, certainly should have a top 50 course, if for no other reason to keep circulation higher there.....

Tom, if the Flynn Philly six can't distinguish themselves against each other, how could they distinguish themselves against the best in the country?

[Jerry Kluger]

Give me Plainfield and Somerset Hills anytime ahead of Baltusrol Lower.  While some us of might have some issues with Mr. Fazio, the fact is that World Woods is truly well done and Shadow Creek was quite an achievement even if it is totally artifitial with an unlimited budget.
I was wondering what your top 50 public access courses might be.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom,

My personal top50 that I use to write about in my little annual letter was based on a pretty slim number of widely recognized top courses.  I have seen many more "great" courses since the days of those letters.  While Snowshoe is a course I have had a ton of fun playing and I consider some of Snowshoe's holes to be architecturally special, the course is better than none of the top 50 you list.

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Cascata is the best Rees Jones course you've played. You must have missed Olde Kinderhook near Albany, Nantucket, Ocean Forest or even the infamous The Bridge.

I've played Cascata and while it cuts an impressive visual imagery with all the rocks and debris of the countryside of Boulder City it's not the best of Rees by any reasonable discussion IMHO.

Tom Doak:

I love a challenge and although I will answer your question regarding the 50 best I've played in the States I will likely list in groupings of ten.  

I'm leaving as I speak for the Pinehurst area and after that to Charleston so as I make my trek down I-95 I'll seriously ponder and post ASAP.

Tom -- I have to ask you how does Shoreacres continue to make such a lofty standing? Might it be a Seth Raynor bias? I'd have Camargo or Fisher's Island before Shoreacres.

I will say this without hesitation that the following metro NY / NJ courses would be in my top 50 -- the exact placement to be determined but without a shread of doubt Shinnecock Hills occupies my top spot. The gem from Southampton is underserved by all the leading golf publications which have it closer to #5 than #1.

Others that will crack my top 50 from the metro NY area include:

PV
Plainfield
NGLA
WF / West
Bethpage Black

*On the fence with The Bridge, GCGC (with 50 spots there can only be so much room). If there's any sleeper I would have to say it's Olde Kinderhook near Albany -- in my mind it's the best Rees Jones design I've played and it's likely to grab a spot near the back.

And, although I love Somerset Hills and Fenway both will not grab a spot. Ditto Baltusrol Lower and Quaker Ridge. I've heard a great deal about the greatness of Friar's Head but since I have not played it I can't comment. And although there are a few holes of note I can't put Maidstone in such elite company.

I'll be back later with a listing shortly.  

[Michael Dugger]

Mr. Doak,

I've seen you a time or two comment on the work of Mike Strantz.  I gather the impression that to some degree you admire his work.  What more can you say about some of his golf courses?  Do any of his golf courses deserve top 50, or maybe top 100, accolades?  

If not, perhaps a few words in regards to why and what he could change to earn this status.  Are they too quirky?  Severe?  Non-traditional?

[jim_lewis]

Tom:

I have at least 6 courses on my top 50 list that do not appear on the GOLF list you posted. I would place Wannamoisett above at least 30 of the courses you listed.

Others that I must include are: Pete Dye GC, Yeamans Hall, Colonial, Salem, and Holston Hills. The tough part is deciding which 6 to bump. My choices to bump are Cherry Hills, Cascades, Scioto, Honors Course, and Bethpage Black. All are excellent courses and would be in my top 75.

I wish I could find a spot for Long Cove, Cuscowilla, East Lake, St Louis CC, and Pine Needles, but I can't find another to bump, maybe Bandon Dunes.

Jim Lewis

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - I have toured Ocean Forest and have played The Bridge and find neither the golfing experience of Cascata.  JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Can you tell me how the up and down / back and forth layout style of Cascata merits such a high mark in your book?

I would hope that people who've played there didn't fall into the trap of the Xanadu sundrome (aka like Shadow Creek) because of all the $$ that necessitated its development. It cuts an impressive site but where is the character and quality of holes that merit such a high placement?

Do yourself a big favor and play Olde Kinderhook -- it blows the doors off Cascata and simply becaue it gets little pub because it's just outside Albany. The US Open can be played at the course and it possesses the latitude to handle member play as well.

[john_stiles]

There are so many I have not played.  However, having played a few, my opinion is that Spyglass, Honors, and Shoreacres, Harbour Town are not top 50.

Having played Spyglass a number of times,  I don't think that the Spy could be inside my top 100. Never have warmed up to the Spy even after 6 plays.  Honors and Shoreacres and maybe even Harbour Town would remain in top 100.

Not sure what to do for replacements.........yet !  Would probably sneak in one of the following moderns (Forest Creek, Pete Dye, Cuscowilla, or Kingsley),  after interclub 18 hole GCA matches,  to somewhat balance dropping so many moderns.

[Bill_McBride]

World Woods out, Pasatiempo in.

Spyglass out, Valley Club in.

Why yes, I am a fan of the Good Doctor's great courses.  

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