Ruining Bunkering In the Northeast...

[rpurd]

Having lunch at my club today, the name of an architect came up.  One member mentioned that he ruined our bunkers with his re-design and also threw out Nassau CC as a place where he screwed up also.  He maintained Nassau is replacing all the work done by this architect.  I for one know of the disdain for this individual at my home club......any thoughts on his work elsewhere?  I know he did some redo at Aronimink.......

[DTaylor18]

He did excellent work at both Aronimink and The Orchards.

[jg7236]

I have never stepped foot on any pieces of his work, but I have seen lots of photos of his work.  All I can say is top notch!  From talking to a lot of people in the golf industry, all they can say, is positive thoughts.  

[Tim Weiman]

rpurd:

It wouldn't hurt to tell us the name of your club and what you feel Ron Pritchard did wrong. How else can anyone evaluate it?

Also, do you have any thoughts on who you would have preferred for this assignment?

[Vigo Mortensen]

It would be great if you could post some images so we could see just how bad it is.

What do you think of it?
Why is it bad?
How is it postioned?
What type of bunkering existed there before?
Who designed the course?
What was the club's directive?
What was the green committee's directive?
How much were both of those parties involved?
Is the new bunkering incogrious to the site?

Thanks,
Vigo

[Guest]

rpurd,

Mountain Ridge and Point Judith are very happy with the work Ron did.

Can you name the club so that others familiar with the work can comment.

[Patrick Hitt]

Ran's profile of Skokie CC has a number of photos of his work there. Other local clubs in Chicago were impressed enough by his work to hire him for similar work. I'm sure Paul Richards will tell us how things go at Beverly this year. His master plan at Exmoor CC reinstates some of the long lost charm - interesting bunkers that were removed over the years.

[Tim Weiman]

Vigo Mortensen:

I agree with you that it would be helpful if rpurd answered the additional questions you have listed. At this point, rpurd's credibility is in question if he is not fully responsive.

"Ruining Bunkering In The Northeast" is great as a headline grabber, but the post itself is very disappointing. It reads more like a personal attack than a serious attempt to discuss and evaluate Ron Pritchard's bunker work.

The only good thing is that he chose Ron and not one of the architects whose name always serves as a flashpoint.

Let's hope rpurd steps up and offers a model for how we ought to conduct a thread on such a topic. He has stumbled out of the blocks, but if he is sincere and puts forth the required effort, perhaps he can turn things around.

In case anyone wonders, I don't know Ron Prichard nor am I familiar with his work. For my part there is nothing personal, just a desire to see our dialogue mature.

[Working Guest]

Although I know Tim, I will post anonymously and say his eternally fair-play, positive responses have been a great moderator in this forum.  He's the same in person too.

[Robert Kimball]

You can use this link to view some of the projects in question. Pretty interesting.

http://www.earthforce-gcm.com/past.htm

[Tim Weiman]

Working Guest:

Thanks. Golfclubatlas is obviously a source of enjoyment for many people. Nonetheless, I'm convinced we can take discussion to the "next level" and that doing so would make the site even more rewarding for everyone.

Architectural criticism is most welcome and should be encouraged. Not all work is great. But, taking our discussion to the next level does require some discipline. Suggesting that an architect is "ruining bunkering in the Northeast" - the entire Northeast! - without providing substantial detail to backup such a suggestion falls short of the required discipline.

Again, the only good part is that rpurd avoided reference to one of the flashpoint names, e.g., Rees Jones, Tom Fazio, etc. While I understand some people here are familiar with Ron Prichard's work, generally speaking he is not someone who has been involved with the somewhat depressing, pointlessly antagonistic threads we've seen. Perhaps this will help get this thread back on track and point to a better way.

[Ron's Friend]

Rpurd,

You are on-line now. Answer the question !!

[Tim Weiman]

rpurd:

Just one suggestion: you might want to do a little research before opening with a title that suggests a golf architect is "ruining bunkering in the Northeast".

We look forward to all the details you can provide about both Morris County and Nassau. Before and after photos would probably help. Some description of Pritchard's marching orders wouldn't be bad either.

After you give us a thorough report, perhaps Ron can respond. But, I, for one, would prefer to see your report first.

P.S. We don't want GCA to get a reputation for being a place where people shoot first and ask questions later. Fair enough?

[Ed Baker]

Check out Charles River in the course profile section, all Prichard bunker work as well as Master plan.

[Brad Klein]

If you're going to start irresponsible smear campaigns in the name of gossip-mongering - "what you heard," a "few members said this or that" - then join a knitting club, don't post on a public access Website.  

Prichard has done dozens of restorations, and as with any body of work, some courses turned out better than others. Some are truly spectacular - I've seen and played some amazing ones - The Orchards in Mass. (where I'm a member),  Longmeadow, Wannamoisett, Skokie, Wilmington Muni, Jeffersonville (Penn.) There's no question his restoration work has been crucial. I wrote a detailed article on his work at Aronimink in a Nov.2002 issue of Golfweek.

He's also working on Cherokee in Tenn, Minikahda, Beverly, and done many others - not a portfolio that you get by accident. So do your homework, please.

As for Morris County Golf Club in NJ, I saw this Seth Raynor layout in the 1990s, and there wasn't a whole lot left of the original to recommend it other than a great routing and some neat short par-4s. Prichard did an amazingly thorough job bringing everything back last year. I was there for a book signing when the course reopened this spring and came back during the member guest in May when the regulars got to see it again and they were stunned, thrilled and very pleased. I thought the work was astonishing - an amazing turnaround for Morris County. A few might have complained, but that happens everywhere, and to attribute priority to such rumblings is absurd and quite unfair to Prichard or to any designer. We all know restroration is controversial.

[john_stiles]

Ron Prichard has completed some of the bunker work from his master plan for Cherokee CC in Knoxville, Tennessee.

I have toured the course, before and after Prichard work, and the new bunker work certainly looks very good to me.

I understand that the bunker work has been well received by the members.

[Tim_Weiman]

rpurd:

Your comments to Brad Klein are inappropriate. Nobody minds critical commentary, but just telling us that a few members at some club didn't like some bunker work that Ron Pritchard did doesn't add anything.

A recent example of critical commentary about bunker work that has been accepted concerns Merion. There were people who felt the aesthetics of the work done there simply wasn't up to the standards one would expect of Merion. So, they posted some photos for all to see. Defenders of the work suggested more photos should have been posted. They also referred to other aspects of work going on at Merion that they considered to be positive. But, both the critical and the supportive comments were informative and were accepted.

In contrast, with Morris County or Nassau you haven't provided anything, certainly nothing that comes close to documentation sufficient to suggest that Ron Pritchard is "ruining bunkering in the Northeast".

Instead of making reference to Brad Klein as "King Brad Klein", why not step up and provide detailed documentation on what you see as the negative aspects of Ron Pritchard's work at your club?

Wouldn't that add far more?

[herrstein]

At last year's Seth Raynor Society gathering at Mountain Lake Club, Morris County had a contingent of very genial guys who were quite proud of Prichard's work, which I still have not seen. They had with them a few pictures and some drawings, all of which looked interesting at least and certainly not a ruination of the course. It's on my list of must see's as a Raynorphile, and hopefully this will be the year, along with a visit to Waunamatonomy in RI. Both courses have sent contingents to Raynor meetings and are very enthusiastic about their courses.
I have heard mostly very positive reviews of Prichard's work and would include him on any list of top architects to consider when doing restorations of classic courses.
I also point out that it is not at all uncommon for members of clubs that have been restored to grouse about the changes; many of them were against anything being changed from the beginning, not understanding that the courses have almost all been changed over time by greens committees, nature, or the fad of the time. Many of the members at Mountain Lake Club complain about the changes, as did many members at Lookout Mountain. Largely these are the same members that opposed any changes to the course from the outset. The members I pay attention to most are as follows:
1. the guys who really wanted to do something, supported the project from the start, and hate the result.
2. the guys who were opposed at the outset, voted against it when the time came, and now rave about it.
If group #1 outnumbers group #2, that's a bad sign.
If group #2 outnumbers group #1, that's a good sign.
At Lookout Mountain, we happily have the latter result.
At Mountain Lake, it is probably too early to tell, but among the Raynor fans I know who have played the course before and after, the acclaim has been unanimous (including me). This is a good sign. Mountain Lake had a larger than usual contingent of members who did not want to change anything, so they have already overcome a lot.
The guys from Morris County who were at Mountain Lake seemed very happy with the work done by Prichard. I don't know if they were in either group above.
Tim Weiman- I have not read many posts from start to finish. You are indeed a voice of reason on this site. Very well spoken. Thanks.

And, for those of you who have read this far, we are planning the Spring Seth Raynor Society meeting this year at Yeamans Hall Club on May 16-18, tentatively. We are also tentatively planning a meeting in the fall in the Northeast (maybe at Morris County or Wanaumatonomy). Interested parties can contact me at herrstein@aol.com. I will forward responses to our new Executive Secretary for invitation and information, so include your contact information.
Doug Stein

[Joel_Stewart]

What type of bunkering existed there before?
Who designed the course?
What was the club's directive?
What was the green committee's directive?
How much were both of those parties involved?

These are the key questions which should be repeated.  I would also ask who is doing the construction?  I doubt Ron would have done anything without board approval so you probably should look within your club for answers.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

rpurd,

Having lunch at my club today, the name of Ron Pritchard came up.  One member mentioned that he ruined our bunkers with his re-design.....

How did the member feel that the bunkers were ruined ?

How are the current bunkers different from the previous bunkers ?

What is your assessment of the bunkers, especially versus the pre-existing bunkers ?

[Keith Williams]

John Stiles,

I would love to hear more about Ron Prichard's work at Cherokee CC.  I had the opportunity to review his entire master plan for the course while I was employed there.  I graduated and left Knoxville before anything concrete was decided by the club.  Do you know if the membership adopted the entire renovation/restoration or decided on just bunker work?  For the most part I was very pleased with what Mr. Prichard proposed for the course.  Any information you might have on his work there would be really great (and could probably warrant its own very interesting thread ie how to "restore/renovate" a Ross course that a) is on a tight, difficult piece of property; b) probably never recieved as much personal attention from Mr. Ross as it deserved and c) has very little evidence as to its original design and configuration (only 2 old aerials, I believe).)

Thanks,

Keith.

[Patrick_Mucci]

rpurd,

As luck would have it, besides knowing more than a few members, it turns out that a fellow that I've been doing business with for a while was/is the green and project chairman at MCCC.

We've talkied about golf and getting together for a few home and home rounds this summer, but today, I had the opportunity to ask him a few questions relative to the project that you were critical of.

The first question I asked was, "what was the purpose, the mission statement of the project ?"  His clear answer was,
"a restoration".  We then discussed the clubs history, especially its recent history and the architects who have served as consultants, such as Rees Jones and Gil Hanse.

We discussed the genesis and evolution of the project, the architect selection process, the scope of the work, cost, bidding and supervision aspects of the project.

I would state that the information that I gleened from this fellow is in direct conflict with your statements, which were mostly based on hearsay, including the cost of the project, and objections to same.

Based on the responses I received, it would appear that the procedures to undertake and complete this work were prudent, and that full disclosure to the membership was accomplished prior to the undertaking of the project.
It also appears that the amount of money spent on the project was not at the significant level that I had been led to believe, and appears reasonable, based on my familiarity with similar projects.

If the goal of the project was a restoration and reclamation of Seth Raynor's work, and if that goal was accomplished, perhaps the disgruntled members just don't like Seth Raynor's bunkers, which is there right.

I suspect that some members might be objecting to the completed work to divert  to their real objections, which are related to the cost of the project.  It's been my limited experience that most architectural objections are rooted in the financial aspects of the project, not the features in the ground.

Unless you have factual information to the contrary,
I would suggest that you offer a retraction of your allegations and an apology to Ron Prichard.

I think you would agree, that would be the fair and gentlemanly thing to do.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Thanks for taking the time to find out and bring to the table the work at this club.

I too think that rpurd needs to APOLOGIZE, or at least explain his views on why the bunker work at this club is so bad. (I'm only going off of your vivid description Pat. If you happen to be in the area of the club, PLEASE do take some pictures so we can post them.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

You may not be aware of this, living in California, but we still have a good amount of snow on the ground where I live.

As soon as the weather permits, my intent is to play the golf course with the project chairman, take pictures, and try to obtain before and after pictures, and a more complete understanding of exactly what was proposed and done.
All things that rpurd should have done before launching an attack on Ron Prichard.

While money is always an issue, the amount spent seemed very reasonable, much lower than I would have guessed, based on my conversation with the chairman, relative to the project.  I was also informed that the project began the day after Labor day and that the course was ready to play on April 1st, which is pretty good in our neck of the woods.

If a member or members don't like the work that was done, they should elaborate on the reasons why they object.
Let them make their case in an orderly fashion and not resort to smearing a professional based on hearsay.

It is interesting to note, that since March 5th, when this thread was started, that I've been able to ascertain some additional information about the project, but rpurd, who is a member, hasn't been able to produce the supporting evidence to substantiate his position.  

With respect to the Nassau project, the green/golf chairman is a friend of mine and I'm going to call him today, in an attempt to shed more light on their project and Ron's work.

I suspect that I'll get a similar report.

TEPaul,

It's just random luck.......... isn't it ?  

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

Thanks for your efforts on this issue. I'm amazed that the person who originated this thread hasn't either brought forth information to support his original claim or apologized to Ron Pritchard. Two weeks after proclaiming Pritchard was "ruining bunkering in the Northeast, we still haven't seen the first piece of data to support that statement.

Hopefully, this thread will serve to highlight what is and isn't fair conduct.