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Mike_Cocking

  • Karma: +0/-0
reverse tiers
« on: April 09, 2003, 03:34:23 PM »
Does anyone know of any good (in bold) examples of reverse tiers? i.e. greens where the front level is elevated from the back, rather than the more common front being lower than than back.

I know of one on the 15th at the Dunes, Victoria (a par 5), which works reasonably well.  It makes for an intersting shot when the pin is at the front - with no backstop, and when its at the back, encourages a great range of shots, including a running / skipping pitch.

Whilst not a tier the only other scenario I can think of at the moment that is similar is the 3rd at Royal Cinque Ports, where the green is in a punch bowl lower than the fairway, with only the top of the flag visible.  I remember hitting similar shots to a front pin into the wind - a bouncing shot.  

I remeber Mike (Clayton) telling me about one in New Zealand - a Bob Charles designed course - where the contractor / project manager read the plan upside down!  Its a three tiered green falling away from the player and is by all accounts terrible.  I can't remember the name of the course though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2003, 04:17:57 PM »
Mike, Tom Doak utilized a reverse-tier green at Apache Stronghold's #5, and it is one of the 18 best greens I have ever been on
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian

Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2003, 06:07:43 PM »
The is one of the best I have ever played it's at Kawartha Golf & Country Club (Stanley Thompson) in Peterbrough. The front quarter of the green is flat with the fairway running downhill into the green. A two foot roll on the right side will hold a "bounced in" approach, but anything left runs through and down below. The ledge is about two feet and the lower green is essentially a bowl that drains left behind the bunker. I hope this shows up in the photo. Of note, Stan's bunkers were ruined although fortunately the rear bunker mounding still remains intact.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Paul_Turner

Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2003, 06:35:47 PM »
The 12th on Berkshire Blue (H. Fowler) is a super reverse tier green.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2003, 07:14:52 PM »
Mike,

One of the best examples I've seen is in Rocky River, Ohio, the 3rd hole at Westwood Country Club, built by Charles Alison.

It is a short par 4 - playing between 290 - 320, but quite risky to try and drive. So, you lay up and face a very tricky little pitch. Land on the downslope and you are likely to go off the green. Land short and you face a difficult two putt if the pin is back
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

ForkaB

Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2003, 08:20:04 PM »
The 4th at Spyglass and the 6th at Kingsbarns are two great ones that come to mind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2003, 09:56:02 PM »
No. 3, Grande Valley Golf Club — Eloy, Arizona.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2003, 03:11:50 AM »
the 14th at Prairie Dunes. although this hole was built by press maxwell in 1956.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2003, 06:40:37 AM »
Mike,

In a similar area to Royal Cinque Ports, a little further up the coast is a gem of a golf course called North Foreland.

Holes 3,4,5 and 6 most notably.

Hole 3 has the biggest reverse tier I've ever seen or played with a good metre + of drop, then the fourth has again another reverse tier of half that just mentioned.

Following from this, the fifth has an enormous positive tier of 1m followed by the sixth again with a positive tier of just under a metre.

4 great examples of tier work which sits within the strategyu of the holes - take my word for it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2003, 07:15:44 AM »
J.J.S.E. -- I am disturbed by the smiley face and the exclamation, "Up the Forest". My God, man, what does this mean?

— Forrest
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2003, 09:03:18 AM »
Forrest,

I can see, why you passed comment, and I apologise.

I support an English Football Team called Nottingham Forest.

Regards

James
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2003, 09:30:43 AM »
Little Mill CC in Marlton, NJ has a reverse tier green on Hole #1 of its White Nine.  The hole is a very short par 4, 305-320, and the green is fully guarded in front by a large bunker.  The problem with the green is that the top tier of the green makes up less than 1/2 of the green and the first 10-15 feet of the green slope away from the golfer.  If the greens are at all firm and the hole is located on the top tier, it is very difficult to keep your 2nd shot on that tier.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2003, 12:03:59 PM »
Michael:  I've done two of these, the 5th at Apache Stronghold and the 3rd at Riverfront.

I got the idea from the 13th at Crystal Downs.  I always figured that was a MacKenzie original, until I went to Old Town Club, which Perry Maxwell designed a couple before he went to Crystal Downs.  It has a similar green with a higher front tier, on the par-3 6th.

I think Maxwell used this green complex fairly often.

The original green on the sixth hole at the TPC - Sawgrass had a higher front tier, but that version of the green only lasted a year ... they never even played the tournament on it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SL_Solow

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Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2003, 12:27:56 PM »
We aren't famous but the 9th at Briarwood is 440 from the back tees to a green guarded by a deep bunker front and left and another to the right leaving an oening of about 13 feet.  The green slopes significantly from front to back.  Hole was designed by Allison circa 1921; green expanded to recover lost areas and bunkers renovated by Mungeam 2001.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2003, 01:05:42 PM »
Ian: What about the 12th green at Credit Valley
Quote
The is one of the best I have ever played it's at Kawartha Golf & Country Club (Stanley Thompson) in Peterbrough. The front quarter of the green is flat with the fairway running downhill into the green. A two foot roll on the right side will hold a "bounced in" approach, but anything left runs through and down below. The ledge is about two feet and the lower green is essentially a bowl that drains left behind the bunker. I hope this shows up in the photo. Of note, Stan's bunkers were ruined although fortunately the rear bunker mounding still remains intact.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2003, 02:15:49 PM »
When I remodelled the old Tucker design at Pioneer Park in Lincoln NB, the 11th had a reverse tier, which golfers hated.  Of course, the hole had gone from a short par 5 to a long 4.  So, I remodelled it out of existence.

However, Fazio has one on a long par four at Fllint Hills National in Wichita, KS.  Into the wind, no less.  That hole should cure anyone who has the opinon that Fazio doesn't take chances.  It's a dramatic reverse tier, too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steven_Biehl

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Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2003, 03:25:16 PM »
Arcadia Bluffs 8th green has a back tier lower than the front.  From the back tees it is a 486 yard par 4, many times into the wind.  If the pin is in the back on the lower tier, and you are putting from the front tier, your main objective is to try to keep it on the green.  A 3 putt from the front tier is good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"He who creates a cricket ground is at best a good craftsman but the creator of a great hole is an artist.  We golfers can talk, and sometimes do talk considerable nonsense too, about our favourite holes for hours together." - Bernard Darwin, Golf

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2003, 03:57:41 PM »
Here are a couple of shots of Apache Stronghold #5. I really love this green. It ties in perfect with the natural contour of the land, and you can play shots off the hillside if needed. First time I played it, I was down the tier about 30 foot past the pin, which to my joy, (I love provocative pin placements.) was in the front.

I sunk it! One of may favorite putts ever! Of course I have Gulph Mills #18 and Barona Creek #17 to make the Mad Armenian sweat a little, right behind.


From behind the green.

From the left of the green, showing the tie-in to the hillside.

For this golf hole, even with all of the trouble of getting grass to grow on it, which at this very moment is being cured, it maybe one of the great sleepers in Arizona. Like the Diamond Back Rattler, it bites its victims! Yikes!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2003, 08:52:30 PM »
Tommy — "Diamondback", one word, pelase.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2003, 08:52:54 PM »
That would be "please", Sorry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2003, 07:21:11 AM »
The Fazio course at Treetops has one of the boldest reverse tiers I've ever seen on a reachable par 4 (#14?). The course is very enjoyable too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris_Clouser

Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2003, 08:29:18 AM »
Tom Doak is correct.  Maxwell used several versions of this.  The first of his versions was on the original 15th green at Dornick Hills.  It was eliminated in the 1960s.  It has been since replaced by a green by Jeff Brauer.  I was sent some early home videos of the course that show some amazing green contours that existed back in the day.  If I can get some stills together I will see about posting some of them.

Maxwell also did this on the 2nd at Oklahoma City and many other courses.  Unfortunately, not many exist today or they have been softened extensively.  The 2nd at OKC and the 6th at Old Town as he mentions are just a couple of the few remainders.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2003, 07:00:07 PM »
Mike,

The 9th hole at Hollywood has one of the best greens of this nature.

The green seamlessly transitions from a rising fairway with the green continueing to rise until it crests, and then falls away dramatically to the rear tier.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian

Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2003, 08:23:43 PM »
Pat,

Is that not the 10th that has the low back tier (the hole before the halfway house).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: reverse tiers
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2003, 08:47:53 PM »
Although not necessarily "front to back", I've always loved the way the 12th at Pine Valley runs away right to left (which is the orientation of most approach shots) almost imperceptibly from the fairway, but with much more slope and speed than is apparent.  

One of the best I've seen is the 7th hole at Hawk Pointe in NJ, which is a par five.  The green is narrow and long from front to back.  The first 20% of the green rises up quickly, and then the rest of the green falls away (I'd estimate almost a 4-5 foot drop from the highest point to the very back of the green), ending in a chipping area behind the green.  There are almost an infinite variety of shots that can be played depending on the variables of hole location, length of approach shot, angle of approach shot...just great stuff!

There is also one on a completely unknown public course in central PA called White Birch GC that deserves mention.  The par four 10th hole has a green with a front half that flows out of the downhill fairway approach, and then DROPS precipitiously...as much as the Biarritz dip on Yale's 9th...probably 6 or more feet, to a lower level and continues out for the rest of the back half of the green.  It was designed by the owner back in the 60s, who minimally deserves style points for something unusual and fun.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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