[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

[Mike_Cirba]

Robert,

After all the fuss in here, that doesn't look so bad!  

Honestly, thanks for giving us a good look at this very intriguing course.

[PThomas]

thanks Robert...it certainly is a visually stunning course and setting

[Mark Hissey]

That's a super picture of #2. Lovely job.

We have some work to do to #4 and #16 this winter. Work begins monday...

[Brian Laurent]

great photos, Robert!  Thanks for sharing!

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Since playing there the other day, I have spoken to a few people who have played there and some fellow architecture buffs.  And I have been doing quite a bit of reflection upon the experience.  The second hole has the potential to become one of the great holes in golf.  Currently, the green is worse than a joke, but the basic flow and design of the green is cool.  Unfortunately, it is beyond too severe.  An approach that stays in the middle to back right quadrent was hit into a very strong wind or was skulled accidentally the correct distance to run up the 5' false front and stop on  the 3 degree+ fallaway slope that goes from the middle to the back of the green.  A ball short of the the false front is either putted into the right greenside bunker, or over the green. A pitch might stay on the green, but good luck.  If softend using the same flow, this could end up being a great green that poeple will extoll its greatness for years to come.

[Eric Franzen]

Nice Photos, Robert.

Did you play the 2nd into the wind and the 3rd downwind?

What did you think of the 5th?

Was the new tee at the 8th hole opened for play?

Cheers,

Eric

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

You have some work to do on #4 and #16?

Interesting to find out about it online.

[Adam Clayman]

 Any chance you have a picture of the 15th green?

As for the second, I was under the impression it was a fine example of the demands for the remainder of the day.

[Mark Hissey]

Mark:

You have some work to do on #4 and #16?

Interesting to find out about it online.

Don't panic...

Cleaning up the washed out areas adjacent to the camp road on the right side of #4. It's all overgrown with that godforsaken grass that Dr. Handell made us plant, but underneath it we've got manholes that are standing up in the air and it still floods badly. It's a matter of cleaning it all out, curing the flooding, and filling in the washed out areas.

The same for #16. The back right in particular is a mess. Construction debris, the remainder of the slate/pipe/etc and clearing all the garbage out of the dunes there.

As you well know, being the obsessive-compulsive nutcase that I am, those spots drive me crazy. It's really a matter of just cleaning up the mess there.

[Eric Franzen]

Adam,

Some pictures of the 15th

Cheers,

Eric

[Adam Clayman]

Thank you Eric.

I was stunned at it's beauty upon finally arriving.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Great pics.

Bring back the memories of my short visit there.

What a place.

[Pat Howard]

Since playing there the other day, I have spoken to a few people who have played there and some fellow architecture buffs.  And I have been doing quite a bit of reflection upon the experience.  The second hole has the potential to become one of the great holes in golf.  Currently, the green is worse than a joke, but the basic flow and design of the green is cool.  Unfortunately, it is beyond too severe.  An approach that stays in the middle to back right quadrent was hit into a very strong wind or was skulled accidentally the correct distance to run up the 5' false front and stop on  the 3 degree+ fallaway slope that goes from the middle to the back of the green.  A ball short of the the false front is either putted into the right greenside bunker, or over the green. A pitch might stay on the green, but good luck.  If softend using the same flow, this could end up being a great green that poeple will extoll its greatness for years to come.

Which photo is the second hole? I've never played the course, but judging by your description it sounds like it's the fifth photo from the top?

[Eric Franzen]

Since playing there the other day, I have spoken to a few people who have played there and some fellow architecture buffs.  And I have been doing quite a bit of reflection upon the experience.  The second hole has the potential to become one of the great holes in golf.  Currently, the green is worse than a joke, but the basic flow and design of the green is cool.  Unfortunately, it is beyond too severe.  An approach that stays in the middle to back right quadrent was hit into a very strong wind or was skulled accidentally the correct distance to run up the 5' false front and stop on  the 3 degree+ fallaway slope that goes from the middle to the back of the green.  A ball short of the the false front is either putted into the right greenside bunker, or over the green. A pitch might stay on the green, but good luck.  If softend using the same flow, this could end up being a great green that poeple will extoll its greatness for years to come.

Which photo is the second hole? I've never played the course, but judging by your description it sounds like it's the fifth photo from the top?

Pat,

It's the first photo in Roberts post.

[jeffwarne]

Cleaning up the washed out areas adjacent to the camp road on the right side of #4. It's all overgrown with that godforsaken grass that Dr. Handell made us plant, but underneath it we've got manholes that are standing up in the air and it still floods badly. It's a matter of cleaning it all out, curing the flooding, and filling in the washed out areas.

Mark,
Can you elaborate on the grass you comment on?
My superintendant called it Indian grass and mentioned it was very aggressive.
Is it native? and why you were required to plant it?
Perhaps you can't comment on your future plans for it
Thanks,
Jeff

[Matt_Ward]

Robert Mercer Deruntz:

The 2nd green "worse than a joke."

Surely you jest !

If you think that's the case then tell me what one fnds at such places as Oakmont, Oakland Hills (South), Augusta National, et al.

I don't doubt there's little room for error on the hole. But there are playable areas provided you avoid certain locations that will only cause major anguish. Last I checked -- that's what they call proper positioning and it's a real skill when playing the game.

I salute Doak / Nicklaus for not including a vanilla type green to such a long par-4. Like I said -- if you think that green is beyond fairness then you need to play plenty of others at the big time champiosnhip layouts in America.

As an FYI -- the toughest pin location I believe is on the far left side just above the false front area. The smart play is away from that same side because if you short-side yourself you could bring an all-star team of up'n down stalwarts starting with Seve and they would be hard pressed to up'n down their golf ball better than 50% of the time.

[Tim Rooney]

Mark, I've never seen Nicklaus "Natural/Shag" faced bunkers.These are Awesome!Did he provide placement/location---Greenside or Fairway?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I base my opinion of the 2nd green having played a great many of the world's great courses, some in competition.  As I stated, the overall flow of the 2nd green may be brilliant, but the current sloping does not work.  Perhaps if Sebonic had a mediocre super who could only maintain the greens at a soft and slow 9, would this work.  However, they have Garrett, whom I've know since he was an intern at Piping Rock--a true super super.  The front left pin is diabolical, but can an approach actually stay there?The back right of the green can possibly hold shots, but you can't consistently pin such a small area excusively, especially when the potential for greatness exists.  As for the dig on my quality of execution, I scored +1 from the tips missing 3 birdies inside of 10 feet and did not make one over 10 feet--scores were +4 and -3 on the nines.  I three jacked #11, but have no problem with that because I made a sloppy misjudgement on a very difficult putt which my approach earned.  

[Michael Dugger]

Mark, I've never seen Nicklaus "Natural/Shag" faced bunkers.These are Awesome!Did he provide placement/location---Greenside or Fairway?

Tim,

You definately need to utilize the search function of the website to find an answer to that question.  This course has been discussed ad infinitum over the past year or two.

[Chuck Brown]

Sebonack looks magnificent.  

At the same time it makes me think; all of the modern, studied, skilled expertise that went into this new design...  and yet we'd all agree just the same that NGLA and Shinnecock compare quite favorably, thank you very much.  There is some pretty impressive genius behind those old designs, comparing them to a new course that just happens to be the carefully conceived product of the leading architect of the 21st century and the best golfer of the 20th century.

[Mark Hissey]

Cleaning up the washed out areas adjacent to the camp road on the right side of #4. It's all overgrown with that godforsaken grass that Dr. Handell made us plant, but underneath it we've got manholes that are standing up in the air and it still floods badly. It's a matter of cleaning it all out, curing the flooding, and filling in the washed out areas.

Mark,
Can you elaborate on the grass you comment on?
My superintendant called it Indian grass and mentioned it was very aggressive.
Is it native? and why you were required to plant it?
Perhaps you can't comment on your future plans for it
Thanks,
Jeff

A combination of Indian and Switch grass. It is incredibly aggressive. We just need to keep it thinned out and to remove it entirely in some selected areas.

[TEPaul]

Robert Mercer Deruntz:

Interesting what you said about the second green.

I've never played Sebonack but while walking the course with Doak and some others just prior to its opening (actually at that point we probably could've played the course) that was certainly my impression of the 2nd green just looking at it.

I think I said to Doak at that point that if the club EVER ran speeds of around 10 and plus that green would have to be a total freak show and I think Tom agreed with that saying he hoped the club never would do 10 plus anyway.

I think your advice is both realistic and practical and you certainly balance your critique by saying that hole would be one of the best imaginable if some of the slope on that green gets in tune with most of the rest of the course on holes like that one.

But so what if it needs to be fixed? The course is still feeling and testing it's legs, so to speak, and there's no reason to resist that kind of fix at this point, in my book. I think Doak mentioned a year or more ago that he or they were thinking of changing the boomerang green for some reason. I don't know why that was. I thought that green was pretty cool as originally done.

[TEPaul]

I'd also like to say that I might have to seriously question those on here who say you really can't tell much about a golf course just from photographs.

I have not seen Sebonack since that time walking around it with Doak and some others in the very last days of its grassing in phase and just before opening. So I know the course and have seen it in person and those photos of it on this thread sure do show how impressive it is in a number of ways.

I know one learns the subtleties of architecture by playing a course many times but those photos on this thread show a whole lot.

[TEPaul]

I think I'll just slip this post in here so perhaps noone will notice but it's occuring to me that with a pretty good number of courses now on line and maturing that have been done in the last 10-15 years and around the world in this perhaps "renaissance" mode or look, that it might even be said that the architecture of this new era has begun to outstrip even the great Golden Age! I'm aware of maybe 20 or more of these new era courses that would all probably be dead solid grandslam homeruns if they were done in the great Golden Age era.  

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