[Tom_Doak]

I had a really long and detailed reply to this, but my internet connection crashed just before it was sent, and I lost it.  Probably God's way of telling me not to belabor the point.  The highlights:

For John K:  I am pretty darn sure I've never "admitted" that we made design "concessions" on the greens at Pacific Dunes.  They are less severe than some of my other courses because a) you have to take into account the effect of the wind on the greens and you can't make them too steep or the ball will blow off them, and b) the client prefers gentler greens.  And most people who have discussed Pacific Dunes with me believe that it's a better course because the greens are a bit less severe.

For Geoffrey:  I agree with you that the par-5's at Friars Head are terrific, and it would be in my top 5 modern courses, too.  But I'm shocked that you like the short 4's or long 4's better than those at Pacific.  I think the nine par-4's at Pacific Dunes are the strength of the course, and that some of the holes you failed to mention at all (2, 4, 7, 8, 16) are just as good as any I've seen lately, Friars Head or anywhere else.  Of course, I'm biased, but I've got to believe that there are some others who would side with me on that question.

For Tony T:  You like links courses better than clifftops, and so do many others.  But when you say that the site for Cape Kidnappers is "too extreme to produce a course of the greatest standing," then there is nothing I could have done to make you see it differently.  Paraparaumu may have more variety of stances and golf shots because of the nature of the terrain ... but there are many better links courses around the world.  And there's nothing much like Cape Kidnappers in other places.  I believe it's not just the scenery, but the singularity of its tilted exposed test of golf, which has caused it to receive so much acclaim.  Even if I myself wouldn't want to play it every day.

[Andrew Thomson]

Paraparaumu may have more variety of stances and golf shots because of the nature of the terrain ... but there are many better links courses around the world.  And there's nothing much like Cape Kidnappers in other places.  I believe it's not just the scenery, but the singularity of its tilted exposed test of golf, which has caused it to receive so much acclaim.  Even if I myself wouldn't want to play it every day.

Thats a pretty fair point.  Its certainly the only course of its nature I've ever played.  I avoided Kauri after being told repeatedly that its no good.  Its the only other comparable style of course in my neck of the woods.

So you're right, its a good result for a unique site.  But the golf simply isn't as interesting, or fun as other courses, including your own.

[Matt_Ward]

John Kirk:

I too like Pac Dunes very much -- but #1 in the USA.
Not quite in my book.

Frankly, I can make a very good case two other Doak courses -- one solo, the other a collaboration, are even better with the likes of Ballyneal and Sebonack respectively.

John, the item with Pac is that gets plenty of brownie points because of the ocean. Put an ocean next to Ballyneal and the profile -- which is considerable alone IMHO -- would be even higher.

I too like the additional holes Tom D mentioned at Pac Dunes but there are very few weak design holes at the two other layouts I mentioned.

Your advocacy for Stone Eagle is noble but in its totality Stone Eagle fares a little best less me when compared to the two other layouts I just mentioned. Your certainly right to be proud of the course but being a member is like defending one's children.

Tim Bert:

If you believe the par-3 14th and par-5 15th at Pac are outstanding than you need to play the courses I just mentioned to John above.

I see the par-5's at Pac to be simply fair -- save for the qualities of the 3rd and to a slightly lesser extent the closer. The 12th is simply filler -- the 15th features a choke point for the deeper tee shot but I don't see the qualities one clearly sees with the other holes at Pac Dunes.

I agree w Tom Doak when he says the par-4's at Pac are likely the strong suit at the course. Candidly, the par-3's there were OK but not stellar.

Tim -- you'd be surprised that there are other daily fee courses in the USA that are exceptional and worthy of higher standing and overall respect. Pac gets plenty of ink -- justifiable in many ways -- but also because of the facility it's apart of, its overall locatoin and because of the person who designed it.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom Doak

We are certainly nitpicking here but that is the nature of this website and it is certainly all that one can do when trying to compare and especially rank "The Top Echelon" of golf courses in the world. Ran has called for frank discussion of the great courses of the world and I try to give my opinions as I see them but I am more grateful for the frank discussions of others so that I may learn and broaden my education.  I would hate for you, all the architects and people in the business and the amateur scholars to hold back.

By saying I like #5 or 6 at Friars Head better then #6 at Pac Dunes I am not saying that #6 PD is anything other then a great golf hole that is a joy to play.  Again, the premise raised by the initiator of this thread was Top 10 in the world or US. How in the world can we distinguish these but for a set of personal criteria, tastes and playability as you or I see them.

So, please do not get offended by these discussions. I have yet to play a single golf hole that you designed that I don't like. I have no bias towards C & C, you or any other architect (but for Roger Rulewich touching a shovel full of dirt on any MacDonald/Raynor/Banks golf course ever again).  I have even defended Rees Jones on here   The only bias I have that I am aware of is my blue state liberal democrat ideology.

[Tom Huckaby]

In regards to the back 9 routing feeling weird, is it odd to y'all that there are 7 par 4's on the front?

I here no complaints about that, for some reason

That's not odd at all - The Old Course does the same... thus no complaints whatsoever.

TH

[Paul_Turner]

I've played Pacific 6 times and my lasting impression is that it's as good as any of the top GB&I links.  I'll disagree with Rich and give it ***.   You can argue the toss on which *** course get to be top10 ;-)

There are so many great holes at PD that compare favourably with the British/Irish links.  An example would be the 4th at PD which is better than a similar hole: the 7th at Ballybunion, which almost everyone rates as a great hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul - those are great points - and if anyone wants to give it *** in the exceedingly vague and wussy scale that that is, I won't argue.  

But if we are to really distinguish it from the others at the very top, well... that's where the nitpicking must begin.  So if you don't want to do that - like Goodale - that's just fine.  In the end, that's a MUCH saner way to think of golf courses - but it just makes for zero fun in here.

So if one is to nitpick, I'd say you turned a light bulb on over my head re the 7 Ballybunion Old v. 4 PD comparison - I to think the latter is a better golf hole, and I surely never thought of PD this way.  But the hole often cited as best at PD - #13 - is also slightly inferior to its other Irish cousin of the same style, #11 Ballybunion Old...  Interesting anyway.. and the bottom line has to be these courses are very comparable on the overall.

And that's a HUGE compliment to PD.

TH

[ForkaB]

Paul

Congratulations on the sprog!

Rich

PS--as a scientist you will know that male hormones kick in after birth and it affects one's judgment for the next 21 years, particularly when it is a sprogette....

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Rich, that is so true. lol Paul, that was a great comparison and I agree. I am so pleased to have new courses being built that do belong in a discussion of the best in the world.

[Michael Dugger]

In regards to the back 9 routing feeling weird, is it odd to y'all that there are 7 par 4's on the front?

I here no complaints about that, for some reason

That's not odd at all - The Old Course does the same... thus no complaints whatsoever.

TH

Good, someone has taken the bait.

With only one par 3 and one par 5 on the front, how could the back nine not be as it is?  

Is it ONE extra par three that is the let down???

[Tom Huckaby]

I am nothing if not a good fish.

 

I'm just not sure what you mean by what the back nine "could" be.  Why couldn't it also have one par 3, one par 5, 7 par threes?  Hell, why couldn't it have 3 of each?  Or any other combination?

And I don't think any part of it is a "let down" per se.  I just have found that the more I've played it, the more I've noticed that as I sit on 10 tee, I notice I've got a LOT more par threes to play and precious few par fours.  Given that my favorite holes are short strategic par fours and brutal long tough ones, well... I figure I have 13 and 16 to look forward to, and as great as those holes are - and they are each GREAT - well... it just feels weirder and weirder to me to have just those two.

Note again this is a really small thing.  But I have felt it... and have talked to others who've felt the same.

TH

[Tim Bert]

Matt,

I must be missing the message you reference because I don't see a post from you that has a list of public access courses that top Pacific Dunes in this thread.  I saw you reference Ballyneal and Sebonack, but those are both obviously not public access.  (I did have the opportunity to play Ballyneal.  I loved it, but I still give the slight edge to Pacific Dunes.  You obviously can't beat the pace and the # of golfers at Ballyneal, but I'm trying to keep that out of the equation.)

Anyway, I try to get in a good golf trip (36 a day for 3 or 4 days) once a year for sure and two when I can swing it.  If there's some public access golf out there better than PD, I'd love to incorporate it into one of my future trips.  I'd love to see the list you reference in your post.

While I splurge on the occasional round, I'd love to see a subset of that list where one contain the cost to under $200 for 18 and $300 for 36 (consistent with PD in peak season.)

Thanks!

[Geoffrey Childs]

For Geoffrey:    I think the nine par-4's at Pacific Dunes are the strength of the course, and that some of the holes you failed to mention at all (2, 4, 7, 8, 16) are just as good as any I've seen lately, Friars Head or anywhere else.  

Tom - getting back to this (as it deserves a more detailed reply) I will grant you that #7 is a striking world class long par 4. The approach shot is particularly daunting and the short game options superb and fraught with danger.  I recall (and have posted pictures of) Mike Cirba putting from about 40 yards out






and into the left side bunker   The greensite and approach to it is one of those perfect settings for golf.

I'll also grant you that there are few more unique holes then #8 (which I played with you!) with its brilliant play around the pot bunker to a rear right pin using the slope from off the green on the right.  Very cool.

Yes there are world class golf holes aplenty as there must for one of the "top echelon" courses of the world.

Yes - John Kirk - the atmosphere is sublime as Mike Cirba, George Bahto and I found out as we first walked the course in twilight first thing after getting out of the car from a long drive that started in San Francisco.  We were giddy at the thought of playing the next day.

So as Ran likes to do here on GCA lets celebrate the positives and the great venues.  Cheers to Pacific Dunes-

[Jim Nugent]

In Ran's review of PD he said, "Given that Pacific Dunes enjoys one of the thirty or so finest sites ever for a golf course, does the design equal the setting? Potentially yes, but the answer now lies with Green Keepers Troy Russell and Ken Nice. Doak’s appreciation for the ground game is well known through his writing. This design will only reach its full potential if Russell and Nice are able to achieve uniform fast and firm playing conditions throughout."

Those of you who have played PD: do you agree with Ran about fast and firm there?  Is that how they keep the course?  

[Tim Bert]

I have a pretty limited perspective of firm and fast because I haven't played any real links courses overseas, but I'd say yes.

The greens have not been lightning fast when I've been there, but they maintain a quick pace (and all I'd want with the wind.)  I've found that the fairways usually putt the same pace as the greens, which is what I enjoy.  I've putted from as far out as 60 or 70 yards, and I putt pretty regularly when I'm near the green.

Both of my trips were in late June, which is about as dry as Bandon gets based on the averages on weather.com, so I think my experiences are biased that way.  The ground is always firm that time of year.  No idea how close it comes to firm and fast during the rainy season there.

[Daryl David]

Tim is right.  I would say that PD is usually as fast and firm as is possible.  It obviously varies considering the climate and time of year, but I would consider it to be as fast and firm as most UK courses.  The crew at Bandon does a fantastic job.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tim B:

Fair question you asked.

In my travels I would say the following public courses are easily worth a look when in those parts of the USA. They are, IMHO, equal to what you see with Pac Dunes in a host of ways and far easier on the wallet.

They would include:

*Black Mesa (Santa Fe, NM) - Superb Baxter Spann design located near to one of America's unique communities. Tour de force routing that takes you through a site with no housing clutter and views that are breathtaking.

*Greywalls at Marquette GC (Marquette, MI) - Dynamic Mike DeVries follow-up to Kingsley Club. May have the most riveting opening hole for public courses I have played among the more recent course openings. What's tough to overcome is the remote location and V-E-R-Y short playing season.

*Bethpage / Black (Farmingdale, NY) -- Nuff said.

*Lawsonia Links (Green Lake, WI) - More and more people are beginning to realize what a gem of a course this beauty is.

Tim -- when you say Pac tops Ballyneal in your book -- you need to tell me a bit more with key specifics included. The great strength of Pac is what Tom D mentioned -- the par-4's. I don't see two of the par-5's (the 12th and 15th holes) as being anything near to what you see with the likes of the 3rd and 18th holes. The totality of the par-3's is also a bit underwhelming -- no doubt the frontage of the Pac Ocean can make any hole look awesome.

I see Ballyneal with the better combination of holes and when the greens and overall fairway speeds more fully mature the totality of the course will only become even more special. I don't mean to say Pac is not an incredible layout but I do believe there are a few other layouts worthy of your time and attention IMHO that offer no less a superb experience.

Again, just my opinion from the places I have had the good fortune in playing.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim Nugent:

Jeff Sutherland (formerly Ken Nice's assistant, and part of the construction team from day one) is now head superintendent at Pacific Dunes.  Bill Coore stole Ken for Bandon Trails, with my blessing (and hopefully a big raise).

Both of them have done an exceptional job of maintaining the golf course as we intended it.  I routinely use my putter from 40 yards off the green.  It's firm, and it's fast.  In fact, I believe that the three courses in Bandon are the best fescue/bent surfaces I've played on, anywhere in the world -- the only issue they have is too much traffic!

[John Kirk]

It's firm, and it's fast.  In fact, I believe that the three courses in Bandon are the best fescue/bent surfaces I've played on, anywhere in the world -- the only issue they have is too much traffic!

..and I have yet to see a reasonable rebuttal to my argument that the combination of wind and outstanding turf conditions give Pacific Dunes a significant advantage over most great American courses in terms of shotmaking.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Jim,

FWIW, during my trip to Bandon (Labor Day), the conditions at Pacific were siginificantly different than the other two courses.

We had eight in our group which included four with handicaps <4. Pacific played 7-10 shots higher for EVERYONE in our group. We were fortunate to have three distinctly different types of weather. We played six rounds (two on each course), experienced a predominant North wind on day 1, a strong south on day 2, and a fog/mist/no wind day 3.  

Our caddies remarked several times how firm/fast Pacific was playing relative to the Curtis Cup two weeks prior. Dinner talk every night consisted of the severity of Pacific (greens most notably). It may have been hole locations, but 13 and 15 were borderline creepy. On both holes we loitered after everyone putted out, and dropped balls on level areas of the green just to watch them trickle off in different directions!! Even scarier, we did this twice on days with opposite winds!

BD and BT played similar to each other in terms of conditions (with BD maybe not quite as fast), but Pacific reduced me to a shivering little girl. I was never more nervous than when I had a wedge in my hand at Pacific. I will admit I loved it.

[Michael Dugger]

I am nothing if not a good fish.

 

I'm just not sure what you mean by what the back nine "could" be.  Why couldn't it also have one par 3, one par 5, 7 par threes?  Hell, why couldn't it have 3 of each?  Or any other combination?

And I don't think any part of it is a "let down" per se.  I just have found that the more I've played it, the more I've noticed that as I sit on 10 tee, I notice I've got a LOT more par threes to play and precious few par fours.  Given that my favorite holes are short strategic par fours and brutal long tough ones, well... I figure I have 13 and 16 to look forward to, and as great as those holes are - and they are each GREAT - well... it just feels weirder and weirder to me to have just those two.

Note again this is a really small thing.  But I have felt it... and have talked to others who've felt the same.

TH

Tom

What I meant is the course possesses, what, five par threes and four par fives???

If you dislike the lack of par 4's on the back, is that to say you LOVED the front because it had seven of them?

All in all, the course has one extra par 3, compared to the traditional 4 (par 3's), 4 (par 5's) and 10 (par 4s) layouts.  It's just the sequencing that you don't dig, I guess, right?  

But haven't I heard you rave about Cypress before?  Somehow you are okay with those two par 3's in a row and a 3, 3, 4, 4 (weak) finish?  

They seem awfully similar to me, each unique and non-traditional.

So, is it fair to say that a guy should get their fill of good par 4's on the front at Pac Dunes.  Each one 'cept #1 & #8 is all world.  If this doesn't allow for an obscure back nine, you are a tough man to please!

I'd say you are unique in that most golfer's favorite holes are one shotters, but you like par 4's best, eh?

Obviously Tom Doak thinks we like par 3's best too!!!!

It's all good, though, we just see it differently.  I LOVE the change of pace that comes with the home stretch at Pacific Dunes.  

[Tim Bert]

Matt,

New Mexico is one of the top candidates for my next golf trip, so I hope to see Black Mesa soon.

I'm still kicking myself over the fact that I never got to Bethpage during my six year stint in CT.  I had a day off scheduled and ready to go only to learn two days in advance that I should pay more attention to when the NY State Open is scheduled.

I'll try to post some specific thoughts on Ballyneal vs. Pacific Dunes later this evening once I tuck my son in, but here are a few general comments for now.  I think the two courses are on the same level for all intents and purposes (same with Sand Hills), but I slightly favor Pacific Dunes.  I imagine that at least part of my bias is that I have had more time to get to know PacDunes.  It has the edge of familiarty - 2 trips and 7 rounds vs. 1 trip and 2 rounds.  I enjoyed PacDunes even more the second time around, so If I had the same ability to head back to Sand Hills and Ballyneal at any time, then a return trip would probably have the same effect.  

I have no doubt that once Ballyneal is playing firm and fast it will rival just about any course in the country.

[Tim Bert]

Matt,

I'm a fan of the non-traditional routing of holes on the two nines, not because they are non-traditional but because I think it works.  I don't think it reflects much thought on the part of people that react either positively or negatively simply because there is a different mix of holes (this comment isn't directed at you - I've just seen a lot made of this on threads about PacDunes.  I think Michael Dugger said it well.  At the end of the day, the mix is pretty darn traditional (only one more par 3 than the norm) it is just the sequence that throws folks off.  

Back to the point of the post - You seem to concede that the par 4s and two of the par 5s are clear strengths, so I'm going to try to focus on what I enjoy about the par 3s and the other two par 5s.

I'm not trying to change your opinion.  You've seen and played more than I ever will and I respect your thoughts.  Hopefully this will provide you with some insight as to why I find the holes (and the course) so enjoyable.

#5 - This hole probably grew on me more than any other the 2nd time I visited Bandon.  The first time around it was over-shadowed by the numerous great par 4s on the front nine and the scenic, ocean par 3s on the back nine.  The 2nd time around, I paid a little more attention to this one.  The look from the tee is one that I really enjoy.  I like the green contours and I love the hidden sweet spot in front of the green.  There's nothing better than hitting is just short enough, watching it disappear for a moment, re-appearing on the green, and watching it roll up near the pin.  I like that one is afforded the opportunity to play it a little lower under the wind and run it up.  The bunkers provide a stern test for errant shots influenced by the wind.      



#10 - This more than any other hole that I'm going to try to defend is about aesthetics for me, so I'm treading on dangerous ground here with respect to golf course architecture.  I think the tee shot has more merit from the lower tee, but I prefer the upper tee here.  I love hitting down to the green that sits in a bowl here.  It's a comfortable shot, nothing tricky, but the green is large and the scenery tends to lull me into complacency here.  I'm usually around the green rather than on it, but I'm not sure if I've ever used any club other than putter after my tee shot here.  As I've stated before, I love putting from wherever possible at PD, and I think the vast green area here with no serious bunkering allows for some real opportunities for a little creativity with the putter to make up for a less than stellar tee shot.  I think the multiple tee locations adds to the allure here.



#11 - I think this one is world class.  Does the ocean help even though it really isn't in play?  It doesn't hurt, but I think this hole stands on its own.  I've played this hole on days when I needed a 9-iron in the morning and a 6-iron in the afternoon.  It's a great short hole with a matching small green that demands precision.  The long, narrow bunker on the left side is dangerous, but a more welcome alternative than tumbling over the cliff.  I love how this hole looks like completely different from the tee than it does from behind the green.  The treacherous bunkering awaiting a shot that gets held up in the wind is all but invisible as you walk off to the 12th tee.  





#12 - I think that the fact that this is a par 5 certainly has to do with a need to fill some space between the obvious locations for #11 and #13.  Might this one have been better (or certainly as good) as a long par 4?  I think so, but I don't think it is a bad par 5.  My enjoyment on this one really takes place from 150 in, which is why I don't think the par of the hole really matters.  I think the green complex is a little more deceptive than it appears.  I've had some tricky putts on this green.  I also like the humpy-bumpy fairway running up to the green.  I've putted from 75 yards out on this one, and I've also played bump-and-run shots.  The terrain allows for a great deal of creativity.  I actually enjoyed both #12 and #15 better than #18 the 2nd time around.



#14 - My volatility probably adds to my enjoyment of this hole.  Short and seemingly innocent, I've made everything from 2 (on a late night second ball) to 8 on this hole.  I've played from just about every bunker within 100 yards of this hole - including at least one of the fairway bunkers on 13 (after a shot from the front left bunker went terribly wrong.)  Like so many other holes out here, the wind can really wreak havoc on the tee shot that is usually played with some sort of wedge in the summer wind.  The front pin position is really enjoyable as the golfer trying to stick it close has little room for error.



#15 - Another one, like #5, that shot way up on my list the 2nd time around.  Club selection off the tee is critical, as we found the bunkering at the narrow neck came in play with even less than a driver in the summer wind.  I love the bunkerless green, and I found the fairway bunkers to be in perfect position to catch a low-running, long attempt to reach the green in two, though my playing partner showed twice in one day that they were also easily carried with a well-struck shot.  The hump in front of the right side of the green is the perfect complement to the sandless complex.  I also noticed a lot more undulation on this green with some of the pin positions we encountered last year.



#17 - In the 7 rounds I've played here, I've used as much as a 3-wood and as little as an 8-iron, depending upon the wind and the location of the tees (I've always played green tees, but they've been in several different spots.)  In 7 tries at this hole, I only hit the green once.  Even more remarkably, no one else in any of my groups hit a ball that came to a stop on this green in any of those 7 rounds.  Chalk it up to our in experience in handling a Redan.  Or maybe it was the wind.  Or the dastardly front right pin location we encountered on the last day (it really was hard to convince yourself how far right of the green you needed to aim.)  I thought it was a great finish to a demanding set of five par 3s that demonstrated remarkable diversity.



I don't really care if anyone is reading any more.  I'm back in my happy place.  Sweet dreams!

 

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Appreciate the pictures but in factoring comments about Pac Dunes it's important to note that the close proximity of the ocean is always a factor in either bumping up Pac a bit more and quite possibly holding back the overall assessment of Ballyneal because no huge body of water is nearby. People may not realize the impact but I believe it's certainly there somewhere at least in the background. I think of it as no less than a 1/2 point bump when a body of water is included in the picture.

Couple of quick comments -- Black Mesa is indeed worth keeping on your agenda -- in fact -- heading to NM is a perfect vehicle to see a state that is truly unique in so many ways -- especially in the Albuquerque / Santa Fe corridor.

Sadly, you missed Bethpage Black -- the layout is very muscular but the more impressive aspect of the course is its grand scale. If BB had an ocean next to it - the reputation of the course would be much, much higher.

Ditto the qualities of Greywalls and Lawsonia -- both which are classic driver layouts in so many ways. I think you would find both of them to be first rate plays.

On to your comments ...

Tim, when you talk about the 12th you are dead-on about the hole simply being there to "fill space" in order to get to the world caliber 13th. In short -- the 12th is simply a connector and it allows the architect to insert a par-5 to eat up some yardage for the card.

I don't have anything to add on the collective par-3's -- save for the 17th which is really good. I just think they are not as thrilling from a design / option perspective as the range of par-4's are. The collective breath the par-4's at Pac is what really drives the program there. It's not a question of the par-3 and par-5 holes being good -- but when a course is deemed as world class the bar is quite high and they each need to meet that as the par-4's clearly do.

The 15th for me is another example of simply adding overall yardage to the card. Yes, the bottleneck area needs to be observed but I don't see the hole providing the real dimensions you see with two others there -- clearly the 3rd and to a slightly lesser account the closing hole.

One other point that's often played down or utterly dismissed.
The overall routing at Ballyneal is much more sophisticated. You constantly are making changes in the manner by which you tour the property when playing. At Pac you generally play out and back in a fairly parallel fashion. Nothing deeply wrong with that but I give the nod to those layouts that keep you moving and with that guessing at all times for proper club selection. I think of it as the difference for me at least, between the nature of TOC and Muirfield.

[Tim Bert]

Matt - I fully understand that scenic nature of the ocean has an impact on many people's views, mine included.  I think it has as much to do with the climate and terrian that accompany the location.

Here's how I differentiate - I really like Bandon Dunes as well.  It has about the same amount of shoreline as Pacific Dunes, but I don't put it on the overall same level.  To me, the most spectacular holes on that course take advantage of the coast.

At Pacific, the inland holes tend to be just as good or better, which is a difficult feat given that the observer is always going to tend to overweight the value of the ocean holes.  

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()