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BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #75 on: October 16, 2006, 08:42:47 AM »
Interesting discussion, but to those of you who think that holes 2 through 6 at TOC are weak holes, I can only think that you have been fortunate to play golf courses that are much, much better than any I've ever played.

Bob

 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 09:20:25 AM by BCrosby »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #76 on: October 16, 2006, 10:26:38 AM »
Hello....does anyone know when they first started cutting the corner over the sheds at 17?

....I don't need time, date, or first person to try it....just within what decade or two would suffice.....guesses are welcome.
Oh, and what type of ball and clubs were they using?

I have a keen interest in the use of hardscape elements as a design feature in golf.

Might make for a good chapter some day..........now that I can type!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 10:27:02 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #77 on: October 16, 2006, 10:33:20 AM »
Paul -

I asked that question above. (Both brilliant questions, btw. ;))

The 17th predated the RR tracks and the RR shed by a couple of hundred of years. So somebody had to actually do something to the 17th to make it play anything like the way the current hole does from the tee.

As you and I have asked so eloquently, I'd love to know who that person(s) was.

Bob

Phil_the_Author

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #78 on: October 16, 2006, 11:25:32 AM »
NOw I'm going to have to go and look and see if I can find this, but just last week I read an old article (ca 1890's) that spoke of the creation of the 17th hole and how players began attempting to cut the corner almost immediately. At the time it was about 365+ yards?

I will see if I can find it.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2006, 11:42:10 AM »
Philip-

Does the 1898 USGA bulletin suggest those shot distances are for the average player, or for the better player?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #80 on: October 16, 2006, 11:58:40 AM »
Wow, just downloaded the pdf of the bulletin from the USGA. GREAT stuff there.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

T_MacWood

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #81 on: October 16, 2006, 01:24:38 PM »
Tom

This is the conclusion of Tom Jarret, who wrote the official history of the links for the Links Trust (1996).  It also conforms to Balfour's personal observations.  Jarret doesn't go into any great detail as to what happened on a decade by decade basis, except to say or imply that changes wer emostly cosmetic (although much of those "cosmetics" involved the massive improvement of the quality of the greens under Morris and Honeyman, as well as the significant changes made when the Bruce Embankment was built (1880?--don't know/don't care/am not at home so can't even look it up!) to 1, 17 and 18.

Per an earlier query, my book "Experience The Old Course" is concerned with architectural changes only to the extent that knowing such will enhance the experience of the golfer playing the course or reading about it.  Ther are many other sources for one who wishes to dig deeper into the details (I would recommend starting with Jarrett).

Rich

Rich
Tom Jarrett does not claim the course was widened between 1850 and 1860 (neither does Balfour). Jarrett doesn't place a date on the widening, he claims it took place under the guidance of Old Tom...although he doesn't mention the source of that idea. Old Tom came back to St. Andrews in 1864.

Balfour does say there was whin romoval in his book (1887) but it also appears from his discription that the outward and inward nines pretty much share the same corridor, which is consistant with Hutchinson's recollections from the early 1880s.

One of Young Tom's more famous shots was a drive over the Hell bunker at the 5th...in those days (1870s) the hole played toward the Elysian Fields because of the whins. Hutchinson described that 5th as playing toward Hell as well....he first came to St. Andrews in the early 1880s.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 01:51:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #82 on: October 16, 2006, 01:47:54 PM »
The May 1898 USGA Bulletin has an article on the "weapons" of golf. Near the end of the article the author relates "where the greens have been so much widened as in St. Andrews lately, there is not the same absolute need for sterling accuracy of aim and line. Fourty years ago a false stroke was punished; now it takes a full drive to get off the course at all."
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

TEPaul

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #83 on: October 16, 2006, 08:53:16 PM »
"Hello....does anyone know when they first started cutting the corner over the sheds at 17?"

Yes, Paul, I do. It was Algernon Birkenbreath, a blacksmith from the Forth of Fifth who first cut the corner of the 17th hole in 1871. I believe I heard his girlfriend, Dolly Bigknockers, caught the event for posterity on an early Scottish version of the minicam.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 08:57:41 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #84 on: October 16, 2006, 09:48:47 PM »
Tom......well that really makes sense because, we,[well probably really only me] being one of those that who consider themselves forensic golf design experts.......have always felt that those responsible for the early attempts at 17, surely had to be from a group that included at least one 'Bigknocker'.......
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2006, 12:16:36 AM »
Looks like in 1898 the 17th was a full 461 yards (i.e., the same tees as today) and listed as "two full drives, full iron"(!)  With the equipment of the day, it probably took some guts to cut over the sheds on 17, because it wouldn't have taken much of a mishit to fail.  Plus, if it was a legitimate three shotter anyway, the benefit of taking the shortcut would be questionable at best.

What astounds me the most from that USGA bulletin is that #1 is listed at 352 yards as being "two full drives".  Was the burn already in its currently location at the time?  I can't imagine hitting a driver from the fairway over that burn.  As they do mention full brasseys elsewhere, I have to assume they really did mean a driver from the fairway for one's second.  Surely the burn wasn't there at the time, or has since been re-routed to be closer to the green that it used to be?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2006, 08:10:39 AM »
Doug ....that's the little secret about par that these numbers don't tell you, mainly because par didn't exist at the time.
Surely it took two big hits for the better player to reach the 1st green and carry the burn....but the less accomplished player could always play it as a three shotter, and most probably did....and had nothing to compare it to, except that he had one more stroke than the big bloke who could hit it over in two.

...and I'll bet you one golden guinea that almost everyone played it as a three shotter in the featherball era.

Par, since it has existed, has always been [and should be], a floater.....one of those hard to fix entities [and I'm sure everyone here knows at least one 'floater'], a hard to peg, always on the move sort of thing that resists efforts to fix it very long, or to anything.
Would I trust Par with my daughter?....Maybe, but I would keep at least one eye out and tell her not to expect Par to be here for the long haul.

By employing Historic Design Forensic methodologies, I think it is easy to see that, of late, we have become more than a bit enamored with Par....and instead of trying to keep propping him up, we really ought to think about taking him down a notch or two.
...but don't worry, it initially will hurt us more than him. In fact I doubt he will even notice....because after all, he is a floater......  

« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 09:03:47 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

T_MacWood

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #87 on: October 17, 2006, 08:35:21 AM »
How far is the carry over the sheds? I wonder if the cutting of the corner was more an equipment issue (Haskel ball) than a design issue.

Sean Tully
Thats a nice picture of Hamilton. He carried out the work in 1905 at the request of the green committee headed by Johnny Low. I believe he was active designer as well.


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2006, 09:33:25 AM »
Tom......in light of the lack of physical data, I submitted your question to a HDF analysis [Historic Design Forensic], which indicated a strong likelihood [92%], that indeed, the first repeatedly successful attempts to carry the sheds, [repeatedly is stressed], were made with, and utilised the Haskell ball.*

* Weather conditions were not factored.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2006, 09:40:58 AM »
The question remains---eg for what reasons were the whins cleared on the course, particularly originally and what does that have to do with analyzing the evolution and history of strategic golf and the TOC as the model for strategic golf that so many say it became when it became wider?

If the reason the whins were originally cleared back and the course was widened has to do with increased popularity, congestion and danger is that interesting and important to know?

I think so for it shows how things, and important things have  come about and can come about in golf and golf architecture by happenstance and not necessarily by preconceived design or preconceived intention.

This is one of the most curious and fascinating things about th evolution of golf and golf architecture and it appears to have happened numerous times and in numerous ways.

Things did not happen in a vacuum in golf architecture but sometimes they happen for the oddest reasons that one would not ordinarily expect.

The entire natural formation and original use of the Scottish linksland for golf is also a series of fascinating happenstances one would ordinarily never expect.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 09:45:28 AM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2006, 10:14:18 AM »
I don't know anything more than anyone else as to who should get the credit for certain design features there.

But the guy who shaped the golf course was a freaking genius.

TEPaul

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2006, 11:47:38 AM »
"But the guy who shaped the golf course was a freaking genius."

Right indeed, and for any of us to be right and proper and good we should probably never take his name in vain on here either.

However, I think Tom MacWood should do a five part essay looking into the historic fact of whether he actually shaped the course or whether and particularly when it may've been his neice or something who did it who sometimes goes by the name of MOTHER something or other---I can remember her name right now but I think it begins with an N. Isn't it amazing to consider that the very first golf course architect may've been a woman? And who the hell knows there's so much untapped info out there never seen before but we might even find that she was powerfully influenced by William Morris, Gertrude Jekyll, Horace Hutchinson, Country Life Magazine and the English Arts and Crafts Movement.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 11:52:53 AM by TEPaul »

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2006, 11:55:26 AM »
I don't know anything more than anyone else as to who should get the credit for certain design features there.

But the guy who shaped the golf course was a freaking genius.

No 'Guy', Tom.

Simple EVOLUTIONARY Geological processes.... :)

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

ForkaB

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2006, 12:00:56 PM »
Interesting discussion, but to those of you who think that holes 2 through 6 at TOC are weak holes, I can only think that you have been fortunate to play golf courses that are much, much better than any I've ever played.

Bob

 

Bob

Don't think I used the word weak.  What I did say was that the stuff down the right hand side of those holes is not my cup of tea, architecturally.

TEPaul

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2006, 12:55:40 PM »
"What I did say was that the stuff down the right hand side of those holes is not my cup of tea, architecturally."

Not your cup of tee architecturally, huh, Rich?

Well, then, is it your cup of coffee architecturally?

No?

How about your beeker of scotch or maybe even your glass of Diet Coke architecturally?

Well, if it's none of those I feel it has to be safe to say its your Doctor Peppers out of the can, architecturally.

Right?

Do I need to send you a flask too pal?

ForkaB

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #95 on: October 17, 2006, 01:24:44 PM »
Tom

I have more flasks than you have ex-400 girlfriends, but after a long weekend in Dornoch, most of them are empty (the flasks, not the erstwhile girlfriends........).  Please send a barrel of some nice malt, ideally one which was inspired by the Arts and Crafts Movement.

And, thanks for thinking of me.

Rich

T_MacWood

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2006, 06:19:12 PM »

 Please send a barrel of some nice malt, ideally one which was inspired by the Arts and Crafts Movement.


That'd be old school Talisker, Lagavulin, Highland Park or Glenturret.

TEPaul

Re:Who designed the Old Course?
« Reply #97 on: October 17, 2006, 08:35:22 PM »
Now the English Arts and Crafts Movement was a powerful influence on Scottish malt whiskey?  Did William Morris and the A/C movement powerfully influence the hula hoop and Chubby Checker and the TWIST too? Is there any chance we can run an Arts and Crafts President? We need something other what we've got. ;)