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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2006, 11:12:26 PM »
Matt,
You can't be serious.  You cannot.  

You find, through the miracle of Google, ONE course in Virginia with bermuda greens.  It's in Norfolk, has a course rating of 69.2, a slope of 119, plays 6011 from the tips, greens fees that top out at $36, and doesn't list an architect.  I haven't got a problem with any of this; in fact, it sounds a lot like places that I play regularly.  But YOU yourself said that you limit yourself to the better courses (or some such egotistical drivel).

You went from NJ to VA to play this course?  You'll be reviewing this course in your magazine?  Will you be recommending it to your readers, or panning it?  What did you shoot the day YOU played Ocean View?  What day was that?

I don't think Mr. Ackerly owes you jacks**t in the way of an apology.  I think, if anything, it would nice for once to see you admit that you overstated your case, and that you now realize that Virginia is simply too far north to have any significant number of courses with bermuda greens, and NONE on the type of courses you pride yourself on playing and reviewing, of which Ocean View almost certainly isn't one.

Hey, partner, you screwed up.  We all do it.  Go ahead and say it.  You'll feel better, I promise.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2006, 11:25:46 PM »
you now realize that Virginia is simply too far north to have any significant number of courses with bermuda greens

Too far north to have?  Or is it that they don't have to have Bermuda greens because they are far enough north to have Bent?

I don't know what happens if you try to grow Bermuda in Minnesota.  Who would ever want to?

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2006, 11:41:54 PM »
you now realize that Virginia is simply too far north to have any significant number of courses with bermuda greens

Too far north to have?  Or is it that they don't have to have Bermuda greens because they are far enough north to have Bent?

I don't know what happens if you try to grow Bermuda in Minnesota.  Who would ever want to?


Take your pick.  It comes out the same.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jim Nugent

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2006, 12:15:04 AM »
I don't know grasses, but when I was a teenager in St. Louis MO, during the 1960's, I was told several of the best country club courses there used Bermuda grass in their fairways.  Interesting then that a commercial website shows the growing range for Bermuda as a bit south of there.  (http://www.bermudagrass.com.)  This site says the area for Bermuda catches the southern edge of Missouri, and also fully the southern half of VA.

The site also says, "Newer, more "cold tolerant" varieties extend Bermudas planting area further North allowing a choice of a more drought resistant species in the transition zone."


Mike_Sweeney

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2006, 05:52:45 AM »



I'm not naming courses at this moment as I have an article forthcoming and I'd rather wait than list them now on a public Website. I'd like to hold my thunder until then if you don't mind. For your own edification -- the places I played in the Commonwealth of Virginia did have bermuda greens.
 

All right, Matt, all right. I'm sorry. I'm very, very sorry. I'm so sorry that I didn't understand that your readers would benefit from the knowledge that the 6011 yard Ocean Views Golf Course with a 69.2 slope 119 rating does in fact have Bermuda greens in Virginia. Obviously the readers of The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Jersey Golfer or one of the other fine publications that you write for will benefit from this news.

I'm sorry. I'm very, very sorry. I'm so sorry that I didn't understand that Ocean View was representative of the conditioning and architecture of Virginia. The image above clearly shows that Tom Doak missed the boat in The Confidential Guide and former Virginia resident Ran Morrisett clearly needs to make a change to his "Next Fifty." I am sure with an annual pass rate of $1000, the Ocean View course is never crowded for your readers traveling hundreds of miles.
 
Matt, there is a chance just a chance that your readers after driving or flying a couple of hundred of miles, they may be interested in a course like Bay Creek over the Bay Bridge as they may want to play a Palmer or Nicklaus course with A-4 Bent greens. I am sure that all the Virginia residents posting on this thread are wrong, and this is the only Bent green course in Virginia. Oh wait, Kinloch had Bent greens too. Well those are the only ones that I have seen in Virginia, maybe it was just Luck of the Irish or something. :D
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 05:59:57 AM by Mike Sweeney »

ChasLawler

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2006, 09:03:50 AM »
I was in the Virginia Beach area for a few days after traveling through the Kentucky & Tennessee area. If you need a name of a Virginia course with bermuda greens try the following:

Ocean View Golf Course / Norfolk, VA. You can contact them at Tel: (757) 480.2094 - if you need additional confirmation. The facility is managed by the Billy Casper organization.

I played the course when in town among several others. They put Bermuda greens into place about six years ago -- Bermuda 427, if memory serves.

If you possibly possess the manners of a gentleman - you will PUBLICLY retract the drivel you mentioned about me.

You lamblasted me for making statements that were "unsubstaniated" -- for being "ignorant" and being "marginally offensive." Since I can tell the difference between bent and bermuda greens -- maybe -- to use your words, I now have the FINAL "chuckle" on your ill-suited comments. ;)

Well please let me apologize...it certainly took you long enough to respond. I look forward to reading about Ocean View in your forthcoming article. What publication should I look for it in?

BTW - I really must admit I'm surprised there is even one course in my home state with bermuda greens, but didn't you mention you had played more than one course in this state with bermuda greens?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 09:07:45 AM by Cabell_Ackerly »

Matt_Ward

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2006, 01:16:21 PM »
I love it when people have to eat crow and then don't have the guts / decency to say so -- save for Mr. Ackerly who has been kind enough to admit otherwise and it is appreciated.

I get bad-mouthed by ignorant people and then instead of owning up to it you get more drivel about what would make me play different courses -- even the low octane type stuff. And here's the ironic rub -- when I play only courses with high slopes and course ratings I can then get the same BS that I only play such a limited range of courses.

In simple terms -- there are people here on GCA who are only interested in playing "gotcha" with me. I know who you folks are and some are merely tweaking my chain and others are simply interested in being clowns.

Guys, allow me to clue you in -- I just don't play top pedigree layouts. My wife is with me on this trip and I wanted something for her to play that would not be too taxing. I also enjoy the service models that Billy Casper provides and since I was in the area and tight for time to play the opportunity to play Ocean View worked into the schedule.

When I do a round-up of facilities on my trips and feature them in forthcoming writings I try to include a smattering of different courses. Some are top tier -- some much less so. I do no less for courses in New Jersey.

Mike S:

Humble pie must taste great partner. Shall I add salt or pepper to your self-inflicted meal now ! ;D Hey Mike -- you can throw the nonsense about "black holes" and the like but when the shoe gets put on the other foot you still continue to do the tap dance.

By the way -- even Doak had courses in Confidential Guide that rated out as zero and ones.

I also played Bay Creek - and will opine on them and others in due time. For those who are Nicklaus fans his layout there is quite good and worth a look when in the area.

A.G. Crockett:

I didn't go out of way to play Ocean View but it served a purpose as I explained at the outset and I certainly didn't fint it through Goggle as you imply. You are the joker who throws forward your home course as a model in which bermuda type courses are prepared. Instead of saying that your course may not be the way others are prepared you simply hunker down and fail to state otherwise and then when pushed by me fail to admit the obvious. There are a number of courses with bermuda -- fairways and greens -- that may not prepare them any better than courses in the cooler climates with bent grasses and the like which overwater and as a result cause the courses to play much slower and never fully accentuate their inherent design elements.

Try to be a bit more forthcoming and a bit more specific to your analysis.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2006, 01:29:42 PM »

I don't know grasses, but when I was a teenager in St. Louis MO, during the 1960's, I was told several of the best country club courses there used Bermuda grass in their fairways.

Jim,

Didn't Bellerive switch to zoysia (sp?) grass about 30 years ago in an attempt to solve their grass and playability problems ?

Does anyone have an update on what type of grass Bellerive currently uses ?



A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2006, 07:12:56 PM »

A.G. Crockett:

I didn't go out of way to play Ocean View but it served a purpose as I explained at the outset and I certainly didn't fint it through Goggle as you imply. You are the joker who throws forward your home course as a model in which bermuda type courses are prepared. Instead of saying that your course may not be the way others are prepared you simply hunker down and fail to state otherwise and then when pushed by me fail to admit the obvious. There are a number of courses with bermuda -- fairways and greens -- that may not prepare them any better than courses in the cooler climates with bent grasses and the like which overwater and as a result cause the courses to play much slower and never fully accentuate their inherent design elements.

Try to be a bit more forthcoming and a bit more specific to your analysis.


Matt,
I don't really know what this means, so I probably shouldn't try to respond, but I'm in this deep, so here goes.

The club that I belong to on the north end of metro Atlanta is typical of most courses in the Virginia, NC, SC, GA, and so on in that we have bermuda fairways and bent grass greens.  The course is set up to play as firmly as possible, and indeed does play that way most of the year.  When it doesn't, it is typically because we have:
     a. gotten a series of heavy afternoon thundershowers, often for days at a time, in the case of the fairways in the spring and early summer
     b. we are having to water the greens heavily to keep them alive in the late summer heat and/or drought
     c. late in the winter the course gets soggy in spots until the bermuda comes out since we do not overseed.

What I am saying about my course is consistent with the vast majority of private clubs, and many daily fee courses in the region.  For much of the year, they play as firm and as fast as recent rainfall allows, which is true EVERYWHERE, including NJ.

I've played courses that weren't bermuda based, and I don't see a massive, unbearable difference in terms of how fast a course plays, PROVIDED that the owners aren't trying to sell real estate and keep the course Augusta-green.

In your original post, you wrote the following:
"I am traveling through the Commonwealth of Virginia and have to say that the usage of bermuda -- both fairways and greens during summer months is absolute torture for both a playing standpoint and from an architectural exericse."

Despite constant prompting, you have named exactly ONE course in the entire state with bermuda greens.

In post #18, you wrote:
"Mike:
I make it a point to play the more noted courses in the USA. I try to avoid the dog tracks I played when I grew up and learned the game. My comments are meant for the so-called better name courses."

Then, in post #86, you write:
"Guys, allow me to clue you in -- I just don't play top pedigree layouts. My wife is with me on this trip and I wanted something for her to play that would not be too taxing. I also enjoy the service models that Billy Casper provides and since I was in the area and tight for time to play the opportunity to play Ocean View worked into the schedule."
"When I do a round-up of facilities on my trips and feature them in forthcoming writings I try to include a smattering of different courses. Some are top tier -- some much less so. I do no less for courses in New Jersey."

What do you want us to do with these comments?  That isn't "playing gotcha", or you being "badmouthed by ignorant people", or "tweaking your chain" or "being clowns".  That's trying to get you to hold yourself to the standards that YOU claim you have, and to back up your comments and generalizations with facts and specifics.  Do you expect less of others than that?  Should we expect less of you?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 09:52:12 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2006, 01:11:45 AM »

A.G. Crockett:

I didn't go out of way to play Ocean View but it served a purpose as I explained at the outset and I certainly didn't fint it through Goggle as you imply. You are the joker who throws forward your home course as a model in which bermuda type courses are prepared. Instead of saying that your course may not be the way others are prepared you simply hunker down and fail to state otherwise and then when pushed by me fail to admit the obvious. There are a number of courses with bermuda -- fairways and greens -- that may not prepare them any better than courses in the cooler climates with bent grasses and the like which overwater and as a result cause the courses to play much slower and never fully accentuate their inherent design elements.

Try to be a bit more forthcoming and a bit more specific to your analysis.


Matt,
I don't really know what this means, so I probably shouldn't try to respond, but I'm in this deep, so here goes.

The club that I belong to on the north end of metro Atlanta is typical of most courses in the Virginia, NC, SC, GA, and so on in that we have bermuda fairways and bent grass greens.  The course is set up to play as firmly as possible, and indeed does play that way most of the year.  When it doesn't, it is typically because we have:
     a. gotten a series of heavy afternoon thundershowers, often for days at a time, in the case of the fairways in the spring and early summer
     b. we are having to water the greens heavily to keep them alive in the late summer heat and/or drought
     c. late in the winter the course gets soggy in spots until the bermuda comes out since we do not overseed.

What I am saying about my course is consistent with the vast majority of private clubs, and many daily fee courses in the region.  For much of the year, they play as firm and as fast as recent rainfall allows, which is true EVERYWHERE, including NJ.

I've played courses that weren't bermuda based, and I don't see a massive, unbearable difference in terms of how fast a course plays, PROVIDED that the owners aren't trying to sell real estate and keep the course Augusta-green.

In your original post, you wrote the following:
"I am traveling through the Commonwealth of Virginia and have to say that the usage of bermuda -- both fairways and greens during summer months is absolute torture for both a playing standpoint and from an architectural exericse."

Despite constant prompting, you have named exactly ONE course in the entire state with bermuda greens.

In post #18, you wrote:
"Mike:
I make it a point to play the more noted courses in the USA. I try to avoid the dog tracks I played when I grew up and learned the game. My comments are meant for the so-called better name courses."

Then, in post #86, you write:
"Guys, allow me to clue you in -- I just don't play top pedigree layouts. My wife is with me on this trip and I wanted something for her to play that would not be too taxing. I also enjoy the service models that Billy Casper provides and since I was in the area and tight for time to play the opportunity to play Ocean View worked into the schedule."
"When I do a round-up of facilities on my trips and feature them in forthcoming writings I try to include a smattering of different courses. Some are top tier -- some much less so. I do no less for courses in New Jersey."

What do you want us to do with these comments?  That isn't "playing gotcha", or you being "badmouthed by ignorant people", or "tweaking your chain" or "being clowns".  That's trying to get you to hold yourself to the standards that YOU claim you have, and to back up your comments and generalizations with facts and specifics.  Do you expect less of others than that?  Should we expect less of you?

A. G., it's really not fair of you to pin Matt Ward down like this.

It's taken four pages of posts to get to this point, but I do think you have him pinned down here.

FWIW, I fully agree.  Unless the course drains poorly or is saturated by rain, bermuda plays fast and firm.  Winter dormant bermuda is actually a super fast surface, tight lies and all.

Jim Nugent

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2006, 01:49:49 AM »
Jim,

Didn't Bellerive switch to zoysia (sp?) grass about 30 years ago in an attempt to solve their grass and playability problems ?

Does anyone have an update on what type of grass Bellerive currently uses ?[/b]


An online source, Golflink, says Bellerive uses zoysia.  Same source says Westwood still has Bermuda.  My memory is that SLCC used to have Bermuda too: Golflink says it now uses bent.

I haven't seen any of these courses for 35 years though.    

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2006, 06:50:55 AM »
What do you want us to do with these comments?  That isn't "playing gotcha", or you being "badmouthed by ignorant people", or "tweaking your chain" or "being clowns".  That's trying to get you to hold yourself to the standards that YOU claim you have, and to back up your comments and generalizations with facts and specifics.  Do you expect less of others than that?  Should we expect less of you?

Matt,

You have to give it AG. It took some time to pull that together from your random post and make a coherent, clear concise argument. I have to admit that you wore me down, but old AG stepped to the plate. I only wish our Ryder Cup boys will do the same today.

Now you might need some help, so here are some good excuses you can use:
http://ull.chemistry.uakron.edu/excuses/

However, I leave you with this quote from that Philadelphian Ben Franklin, “He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else”.

TEPaul

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2006, 06:58:57 AM »
This is just another thread where some guy plays a golf course once and makes a value judgement about the way it always plays or a value judgement about the grass used without understanding it may not be that way all the time, isn't it?

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2006, 01:08:55 PM »
Jim and Pat,
  Though Bellerive was renovated in the last 12 months, they still have zoysiagrass tees and fairways with bentgrass greens.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Matt_Ward

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2006, 03:35:52 PM »
A.G. Crockett:

I just love how you can automatically ASSUME that what takes place at your specific individual club will somehow be the standard each and very club achieves. You stated, " ...typical of most courses in the Virginia, NC, SC, GA ..." Geeze A.G. -- nothing like the wide as a house wide rationale with the insetion of the word "most."

I really love massive generalizations. However, if Ward even HINTS at some sort of comparable statement not backed up by specific references that mirror a complete listing of appropriate footnotes the cottage industry types who love to play "gotcha" here on GCA emerge from their basements and rear forward with a statement about how out of touch I am.

Wonderful consistency no doubt. ::)

A.G. if you don't think bermuda when in full bloom during the summer months plays very slow then you and I will never agree -- which is likely the case. Of course, people then insert how bermuda plays when dormant. Wonderful tap dance around the main item I raised -- the summer season.

I never said courses in the northeast and elsewhere will not be impacted upon the rainfall they get from the sky. No doubt if the wrong person is handling the turf responsibilities the final result will be a course that fails to reach its ultimate design potential -- whether it be bent, bermuda, or whatever turf. That's a no brainer and another diversion from the main point I originally raised.

The issue presented to me was in naming a course with bermuda greens in Virginia. I played such a course. Mr. Ackerly was clear in telling me publicly my claim about bermuda greens existing in Virginia was "unsubstaniated and ignorant." I disproved that. I didn't have to list a yellow page listing of courses. Got it.

I also mentioned my latest travel itinerary was through other states in the region -- including the likes of Tennesee and Kentucky. Try to re-read the sentence -- "traveling through." Virginia was the last stop on my places to visit.

Unfortunately, when I backed up my original statement the issue became one of the quality (lack thereof) of the course I mentioned. It's so amusing when people have no wherewithal to continue one argumentative line they jump to another inserted point to cover their butts. Another staple of the gotcha mentality -- ignore the rebuttal & simply nsert another bomblast and go from there. It's the same transparent attack game plan that the national political parties routinely follow.

Allow me to move to another point -- I played a course I would likely not play but because my wife traveled with me this go around and indicated a desire to play. I decided to play a round of golf at a facility close enough to where we were staying and one not too taxing for her and to fit in with the limited time we had. I knew of the facility through its connection to Billy Casper golf course management.

Do you guys EVER play with your wives ? Do you ever think my accomodation to her would be no different than other couples do when they play golf or when you play with your kids? I never opined that Ocean View is some living testimony to design greatness or that it compares with the likes of the stronger courses in the area like The TPC at Virginia Beach, to name just one. No doubt I love to play challenging courses but I do sample other layouts from time to time when circumstances warrant. Even Doak himself -- included comments / critiques on courses (within Confidential Guide) that rated out as zero and ones on his personal visits.

End of story.

Bill McBride:

I never said anything about the speed of bermuda when dormant. I said how the surface can play in full bloom in the summer months at many of the facilities I have played in the region. There's a big difference between the two times of the year and said as much. You likely missed my differentiation comments.

TEPaul:

This isn't about playing one course and making a broad generalizations as you outlined. I have played golf in the southeast region for quite some time (for over 25 years) and fully comprehend the nature of how the turf can play when handled correctly and when played on during a particular time of year.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2006, 03:51:29 PM »
TEPaul:

This isn't about playing one course and making a broad generalizations as you outlined. I have played golf in the southeast region for quite some time (for over 25 years) and fully comprehend the nature of how the turf can play when handled correctly and when played on during a particular time of year.
Matt,

This isn't cohesive with the title of your thread. The thread title decries Bermudagrass and its effect on architectutral elements. Somehow, now, amongst all the discussion, you have understood all along how it is really a maintenance issue?

Truthfully, had you just stated " I don't like golfing on bermudagrass" it would've been fine. As far as most...oops....let me rephrase...as far as "I" am concerned, your dislike of bermudagrass should be an off topic thread.....lumped in with football.  ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Paul Payne

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2006, 03:51:45 PM »
Matt,

I've been reading this thread as a bystander.

You're toast!

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2006, 04:09:56 PM »
First Matt told us about Bermuda fairways and greens in Virginia

I am traveling through the Commonwealth of Virginia and have to say that the usage of bermuda -- both fairways and greens during summer months is absolute torture for both a playing standpoint and from an architectural exericse.


Then Matt told us his comments were limited to "so-called better name courses."


Mike:

I make it a point to play the more noted courses in the USA. I try to avoid the dog tracks I played when I grew up and learned the game. My comments are meant for the so-called better name courses.

Got it now -- Mike. Forgive me for the confusion.


But now Matt is telling us Ocean View, the only course that he has listed so far, does not compare to TPC of Virginia, which of course has L-93 bent greens !!

I never opined that Ocean View is some living testimony to design greatness or that it compares with the likes of the stronger courses in the area like The TPC at Virginia Beach, to name just one.

Gotcha!  :o 8)

AG,

This is fun, thanks! Can somebody please help out Matt and list a second course in Virginia with Bermuda greens, we will take a Doak 3 at this point! Let's try some in North Carolina too, that is close enough. Currituck Club, nope that is Bent greens too Matt, maybe Scott Burroughs can help us out with some of the inland courses.  ;)

Mike Whitaker,

Please, a little help for Matt from the state he went to school in. We want the University of South Carolina to be proud of their graduates. Matt you did graduate right?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2006, 04:16:33 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2006, 04:27:00 PM »
Sweeney,
  There are quite a few course in North Carolina that have bermudagrass greens-careful what you wish for....
GTC of Pinehurst, Baywood Golf Course, Fort Bragg (Ryder Course), Fort Bragg (Stryker Course), Garner Country Club
Grandover Resort, Cherry Point Marine Base
New Bern, River Bend Golf & Country Club, Fairfield Harbour
Oak Island Golf & CC, Silver Creek Golf Club, Beau Rivage Resort & Golf Club, Happy Valley CC, Ayden Golf & CC, Brook Valley, Chowan Golf & CC, Cleghorn GC, Cotton Valley (MB Nat.), Kinston City Golf Course, Southern Wayne Country Club, The Cape Golf & Racquet Club, Three Eagles...need any more?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2006, 04:30:53 PM »
Tony,

Not New Bern CC, Not Fairfield Harbor, not Silver Creek......where ya getting your info?

Add Carolina Pines to your list, however.....my old stompin' grounds. ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #95 on: September 24, 2006, 04:34:07 PM »
Joe,
  That's straight off the updated Tifeagle and Champion course lists....updated as of this spring. See you at Railside in 2 weeks....?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
« Last Edit: September 24, 2006, 04:34:45 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #96 on: September 24, 2006, 04:46:53 PM »
Tony,

It's been awhile since I was down there, so I suppose some of those clubs may have converted. With todays maintenance costs, it was likely a smart move.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Sweeney

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #97 on: September 24, 2006, 04:55:23 PM »
Sweeney,
  There are quite a few course in North Carolina that have bermudagrass greens-careful what you wish for....
GTC of Pinehurst, Baywood Golf Course, Fort Bragg (Ryder Course), Fort Bragg (Stryker Course), Garner Country Club
Grandover Resort, Cherry Point Marine Base
New Bern, River Bend Golf & Country Club, Fairfield Harbour
Oak Island Golf & CC, Silver Creek Golf Club, Beau Rivage Resort & Golf Club, Happy Valley CC, Ayden Golf & CC, Brook Valley, Chowan Golf & CC, Cleghorn GC, Cotton Valley (MB Nat.), Kinston City Golf Course, Southern Wayne Country Club, The Cape Golf & Racquet Club, Three Eagles...need any more?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC


Anthony,

Thanks. I said it before and I will say it again. Matt Ward has a deep knowledge and can be a great contributor to this site. Much of what he says is true and on-target, but it gets lost in the Wardisms that we know and love.

Since it is a "self moderating" site, I am just trying to get Matt to work on his presentation skills since it appears that he was out playing during that class at USC.  ;)

S. Huffstutler

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2006, 02:39:16 PM »
I had to dig deep for this one, but I have noticed an increase in traffic lately and quite a few cars with New Jersey plates being driven slowly and erratically by small people around town lately, so I guess Matt failed to pass the word and bermudagrass is not such failure after all.

Steve

ChasLawler

Re:The Failure of Bermuda / re: Architectural Elements
« Reply #99 on: October 09, 2006, 01:22:10 PM »
I had forgotten about this one.

From reply #94
Quote
The issue presented to me was in naming a course with bermuda greens in Virginia. I played such a course. Mr. Ackerly was clear in telling me publicly my claim about bermuda greens existing in Virginia was "unsubstaniated and ignorant." I disproved that. I didn't have to list a yellow page listing of courses. Got it.

Matt didn’t disprove anything. His comments are still “unsubstantiated and ignorant”. I don’t know if he found Ocean View through an internet search engine or through his network of golf writer buddies, but I don’t believe for a minute that he actually played it…and I don’t believe anyone else does either. The thought that he actually went through the trouble of fabricating an entire back story on why he played it is laughable.


Let’s take a look at a few of Matt’s comments…

From post #1
Quote
I am traveling through the Commonwealth of Virginia and have to say that the usage of bermuda -- both fairways and greens during summer months is absolute torture for both a playing standpoint and from an architectural exericse.

To this comment, I (and a couple of others) questioned what courses in Virginia had Bermuda greens. To be honest I didn’t know of ANY courses in the state of Virginia with Bermuda greens.


From reply #18
Quote
I make it a point to play the more noted courses in the USA. I try to avoid the dog tracks I played when I grew up and learned the game. My comments are meant for the so-called better name courses."

OK…


From reply #20
Quote
I'm not naming courses at this moment as I have an article forthcoming and I'd rather wait than list them now on a public Website. I'd like to hold my thunder until then if you don't mind. For your own edification -- the places I played in the Commonwealth of Virginia did have bermuda greens.

Fair enough…he’s not naming courses. But it sure sounds like he’s saying he played a number of courses in Virginia with Bermuda greens. Coupled with his statements from reply #18, we must assume he played some noted courses with Bermuda greens…right?


From reply #26
Quote
Allow me to clue you in for what it's worth -- I went to school in the Carolinas and played more than my fair share of the top and mid-level courses in the region -- and that includes the Comonwealth of Virginia. I also understand the nature of the turf I've played off of and what it means when playing.

Apparently not…


From reply 3 #86
Quote
Guys, allow me to clue you in -- I just don't play top pedigree layouts. My wife is with me on this trip and I wanted something for her to play that would not be too taxing. I also enjoy the service models that Billy Casper provides and since I was in the area and tight for time to play the opportunity to play Ocean View worked into the schedule.

See reply #18 above…and doesn’t it sound like Matt’s trying to sell this just a bit too hard?

 “I also enjoy the service models that Billy Casper provides”…please!

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