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Geoffrey Childs

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2006, 11:15:15 PM »
Paul

 8)

I'll think of you with my beer after 18.  I'm looking forward to the golf at EH.

Thomas_Brown

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2006, 11:24:16 PM »
It's tough to play a course with so many lost balls - slow play, etc.  I respect Paul's outlook given the difficulty, but I'm curious where the consensus will land on this one.

Your Black Sheep & Bandon numbers match mine.
I'd have to think any USGA event under those conditions would be 5.5 hours+

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #77 on: October 03, 2006, 07:51:48 AM »
Paul, maybe you played the wrong tees? Not that the observations you made of Erin Hills are wrong, but I do think a course ought to be evaluated from a reasonably playable set of tees, providing they are available.

I'll find out soon enough.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #78 on: October 09, 2006, 10:46:54 PM »
Jeez, you holed out from 150 at Erin Hills your first time out, Shiv???

That's fantastic!!!
 :o

Bravo, that's a tremendous story
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #79 on: October 09, 2006, 11:24:14 PM »
The first hole seeded was actually # 2, while the last hole seeded was # 1.  Thanks for explaining the 12th.  When the wind is in your face on that tee it is a challenge to just get it to the top of the hill.  A smart golfer can really turn this hole into a birdie hole if you can use the contours of the putting green and approach to get your ball close.  I think 6 and 13 will only improve with time.  Thanks for your comments shivas.
Brendan

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2006, 08:04:35 AM »
i thought the fairways seemed a bit narrow...remember, this is a public course so not everyone will be a low handicapper, so with the wind that will blow there you might get some really long rounds...

some very good holes out there

I was a bit worried about the greens being a bit boring after the first few holes but their contours did get more interesting

for those who care about it conditions were a bit scruffy but that canbe fixed
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John Kavanaugh

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2006, 08:11:39 AM »
i thought the fairways seemed a bit narrow...remember, this is a public course so not everyone will be a low handicapper, so with the wind that will blow there you might get some really long rounds...



News Flash...Not everyone at private courses are low handicappers..

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2006, 09:16:13 AM »
i thought the fairways seemed a bit narrow...remember, this is a public course so not everyone will be a low handicapper, so with the wind that will blow there you might get some really long rounds...



News Flash...Not everyone at private courses are low handicappers..

gee John thanks for telling me that...I had no idea ::) ::) ::)
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John Kavanaugh

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2006, 09:23:25 AM »
Exactly..why then does it matter if a Erin Hills is public or not.  Did you hop on up to Kohler with the rest of your buds and compare these upscale publics on the same trip (which I think is a wonderful exercise) or are you just guessing.  I don't think it is fair to short-change the guy who is paying $150 for a round by making "public" concessions.  I can tell you that private golfers are no better than publics in more ways than one.  Kohler does not short-change..why should Erin Hills..

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2006, 09:27:15 AM »
well I made the mistake of dignifying your first stupid post John but I shall not reply to any more of your mean-spriited, moronic posts

you really need to get a life
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John Kavanaugh

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2006, 09:31:49 AM »
well I made the mistake of dignifying your first stupid post John but I shall not reply to any more of your mean-spriited, moronic posts

you really need to get a life

Please tell me what is mean spirited or moronic about my post.  I simply hate to see my friends who play public courses forced to play lower quality architecture than my friends who are members of private courses.  Please find what you found so offensive below:

Exactly..why then does it matter if a Erin Hills is public or not.  Did you hop on up to Kohler with the rest of your buds and compare these upscale publics on the same trip (which I think is a wonderful exercise) or are you just guessing.  I don't think it is fair to short-change the guy who is paying $150 for a round by making "public" concessions.  I can tell you that private golfers are no better than publics in more ways than one.  Kohler does not short-change..why should Erin Hills..

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #86 on: October 10, 2006, 10:42:14 AM »
Quote
But luckily, there was a grounds-crew gal up at the top of the hill, and she said "I think that went in!".  I don't think she'd ever seen a shot holed before.  She was pretty excited.  What a hoot.

Oh, but that leaves so much to the imagination... ::) :o :-X
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Noel Freeman

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2006, 12:07:29 PM »
Does anyone think Erin Hills will be economically viable given its locale and pricing?  JK brings up that Kohler charges what it does, but there are other amenities there.  Having visited there, I think a better side trip from Kohler and a cheaper one is to go to Lawsonia..

John Kavanaugh

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2006, 12:38:14 PM »
Noel,

I don't think it will...I think people need big expansive watery views for that kind of money.  I was going to start a thread asking if another inland course exists in a red state that charges those types of fees until I did some research and found out the Wisconsin is not a red state.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2006, 12:52:06 PM »
Folks:

Erin Hills isn't exactly in the middle of nowhere -- it's near the town of Hartford, which is probably (US Census) technically in the Milwaukee metro area, which has about 2 million people. It's not that far from Chicago and its suburbs, and the Twin Cities aren't that far away, either.

As I've written before, Herb Kohler was pretty shrewd in developing his courses, because they were a relatively easy drive to a bunch of mid-to-large-to-(Chicago)-very large markets. I'm sure the folks developing Erin Hills are counting on it being a similar regional, Midwestern attraction. And he clearly seems intent on pricing it below the Kohler/Haven courses.

Admittedly, Pinehurst #2 has a lot going for it -- history, quaint village, other fairly well-known courses nearby, US Opens. But does it have expansive ocean views?

Wisconsin is a blue state by only a few thousand votes -- check out the last two presidential elections, and you'll see it's been as closely contested as any state in the country.


Geoffrey Childs

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2006, 01:14:29 PM »
If the Lawsonia management ever got in touch with the marketing folks at Reynolds Plantation they could make a TON of cash and be a destination of choice in the area.

Erin Hills opened WAY too early and hopefully that will not hurt their long term future. It has some great potential given tweeking of the bunkering and a couple of greensites. It is built on a massive scale and has all the width in the world to let you play.

Phil - please allow us the blue that was earned.  Hell, Florida is probably more blue then Wisconsin but the courts and the state administration had just enough red paint to coat the state.  

Geoffrey Childs

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2006, 01:46:39 PM »
Shivas

I can't speak to the conditions at The Straits when it opened.

The conditions at EH are playable - absolutely.

Is that what you want your customers who paid full greens fees to come away telling potential customers? Conditions at Lawsonia were WAY WAY WAY better for $26.  EH has a huge upside it the owners get it right. I thought they should have waited to give the best possible first impression.

Noel Freeman

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2006, 02:23:47 PM »
Shivas-

I can't understand people who think Erin Hills is narrow.. There was plenty of width and we played it in 15-20mph winds..  That said, I thought #2 and #12, the short par 4s are the best holes.  There is a lot to like with the terrain but I thought of one odd thing, I really didnt get a lot of odd lies in the fairways (hanging etc). . That just hit me in thinking of the course.  When you play the Kingsley Club's front 9 which is over similar type kettle dome terrain, you have very different lies to deal with.  Also the bunkering seemed rudimentary in spots and Geoff and I played it too short at 6500 yards to have any of the fairway bunkering come into play.  I was not a big fan of the par 3s, the Dell hole is cute but the rest were not inspiring to me.  I also liked the Biarritz green but coming at the end of a heroic par 5 if you carry the kettle hole on the right, I found it odd the swale is blind.  Biarritz greens should not be blind.. That makes two features that are blind on the hole--very quirky no doubt but that would make sense on a members course and not a pay for play.  I think Erin Hills is going to cause a big schism in the minds of people, the terrain is indeed inspirational, some of the holes in my estimation a lot of fun but there seemed to me to be a some oddities that need addressing as I mention above..Case in point, --the 1st hole is an abortion, the 2nd shot there does not work as you allude to.. I do think the price tag may bother some and it will have problems.  Even if the USGA goes there, I don't know if the course will attract enough play to succeed--just my guess.  The Bull at Pinehurst is $155 near Kohler-- not exactly cheap.  I know people who go to Blackwolf/Whistling have $$$ but in my mind all of this is outrageous when you have Lawsonia within shouting distance and can play all the golf you want in the dead of summer for something like $120 for a day ticket.  In the shoulder seasons, Lawsonia is even more of a bargain.

We hardly ever talk on this site about Mike DeVries' Kingsley Club which is what Erin Hills could have been--At least the front 9 of the KC..  To me the Kinsgley Club is still the most unheralded course in the US other than Eastward Ho!.. Somehow Mike made a course work over that terrain with all of the playability and fun of NGLA..  I think some might find gimmicky nature in Erin Hills and others think it a homage to Irish Golf.. Time will tell, but the course needs some maturation and some work.  Hopefully, it will be a success, I'm just not sure yet.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 02:36:11 PM by Noel Freeman »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2006, 03:38:03 PM »
Shivas,
  You didn't answer my questions about #12. Not that you can anyway since you have no idea how any of the strategic elements on the approach and green work, since you just ignored all that and holed out. Well done. :)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2006, 03:53:39 PM »
On # 10 you also have the option of playing up on top of the ridge, just over those bunkers, with your second.  This will afford you with an angle that is looking into the large middle swale, but makes a shot to the front tier really difficult.  This area of fairway is quite small, but doable.  When I miss hit the drive on this hole, I ussually end up laying my second shot up there, and it has worked well for me.  

Noel, I am curious to hear which, bunkers you thought looked out of place?  A few of them will need some fine tuning, no doubt.

Also I am suprised that the par 3's have gotten little regard.  
#6 has a neat false front and then the rest of the green runs to the back.  How many par 3 greens do you see with fall away, false front green?
#7 can be played in a number of different ways, and probably has more variety then the original dell.
#13 has an interesting green with the swale running through the middle of the green.  Once the turf becomes faster this green will have a pinehurst effect on three sides, where balls will roll well off the green.
#16 has a neat two tiered green that is partially hidden behind a large moraine, not something you see to often in the US.
I think all 4 of the par threes play very different, just my opinion.

Just curious, but what do you guys think could have been done to improve the golf course?   What elements do you like and what do you not like?  

Brendan

Noel Freeman

Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2006, 04:18:05 PM »
Brendan- some of the bunkering at Erin Hills is fine, don't get me wrong.  I think the designers tried to create a ragged very craggy template but some of them don't work for me.. For example the ones cut into the 1st hole's ridge line.. The pawprint central hazard on the 5th hole looked a bit too unsculpted to my eye that it didnt appear natural..  There are some very good bunkers out there and I am trying to recall ones specifically by memory but there is not a uniform quality to them. I realize that natural styles of bunkers won't be uniform but having some look natural in a ragged state and others in a more manicured one bothered my eye... For the property I think bunkers that look more like the below would have worked a bit better..





On the par 3s the 6th you refer to with the fallaway green hence the name Runaway is the best given the semi false front.. I think the Dell is cute but in no way will ever see the USGA use it.. After that #16 is also a nice hole with a cool punchbowl esque feature, I just didnt find the par 3s to be the strong point of the course. When you see people compare the course to Shinnecock, Prairie Dunes etc one has to realize the par 3s there are sublime, obviously those are rare air courses.. But again over similar kettle dome terrain I find the Kingsley Club's par 3 a much superior set and that is even with some people not liking #9 there..
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 04:42:10 PM by Noel Freeman »

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2006, 04:23:36 PM »
Just curious, but what do you guys think could have been done to improve the golf course?   What elements do you like and what do you not like?  

Brendan

Brendan -

Played the course monday for the second time and had a lot of fun learning it.

One part of the course that should be addressed is the areas in between holes ...the so called fescue. A majority of it is reed canary grass. This nasty looking invasive (#1 on the Wisconsin DNR list) left unchecked will soon take over leaving a dense mat you can't walk in much less find or play a ball.

If the wispy fescue look is what is desired  it will take some serious  management to make it happen.

One area I know fescue was planted was to left of the tee shot landing zone on hole 14. I think the area was graded for water retention and seeded.

A Player (Wayne) in our group pulled his tee shot ..but found it and was able to advance it with a 9 iron. This shot would be lost in most other areas of the course.

Essentially most (eventually all) of the "fescue" areas will play like lateral water.


Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2006, 09:48:05 PM »
Thanks for the responses.  Actually most of the native areas were burned off last winter, so the native prairie grasses came back real strong in most spots.  This is a frustrating aspect of the course for me as well.  I am not the most accurate player in the world, but if I can find it I can usually advance it pretty far with a lofted iron.  

I agree with you that a number of the bunkers don't look as natural as they could.  Hopefully mother nature will lend a helping hand, and give them a more natural look over time.

Shivas, as I mentioned earlier in this thread 12 is one of my favorite holes.  I can't compare it to Sand Hills, but it is definitly one of my favorite holes in the world.  

Just curious, but what did you think of holes 4 and 15?  Both are medium length par 4's with unique greens.  The 4th is a complete punchbowl green, while the 15th has a huge ridge seperating half the green into a punchbowl.  Do these greens work?  Please feel free to ask any questions about construction or design of course?

Thanks,
Brendan

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2006, 10:22:08 PM »
Noel

you said:
>I can't understand people who think Erin Hills is narrow..


Please read my long description above.

The corridors at EH, as they exist today, are too narrow.

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:So what's the deal with Erin Hills?
« Reply #99 on: October 11, 2006, 10:25:14 PM »
Noel

you said:
>Time will tell, but the course needs some maturation and some work.  Hopefully, it will be a success


On these points, we agree.

 ;)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

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