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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2004, 08:29:00 PM »
Don't laugh guys, but #7 is my good friend Rees Jones favorite hole out there. (Funny how that gets out isn't it Rees? Steve, please pass that on to him.):)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 08:29:32 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2004, 08:34:07 PM »
Sorry to interrupt all the fun, but if anyone wants to see the 7th as a par 3 tomorrow at around 1:10, I've got a tee time for 2 (Brian, if you can somehow still pull it out, you've still got first dibs)

But, email me at my address on my profile if you're interested in teeing it up at RC -

Oh, I'm about a 6 with a serious swing flaw right now that may or may not have gotten straightened out at my range session at Strawberry Farms yesterday...


THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2004, 08:56:50 PM »
More great stuff.

David:  oh yes, as I said above, competitive situations - ie what the golfer wants to accomplish - effect all this as well.  So does the pin position, big time, I assume.  I had left that out for the most part so far because there just have to be so many variables, well... I was just trying to sum up and be quick, and to be honest having seen the green only twice, I only have a cursory memory of what it was like.  That is, I remember the general contour, but not the subtle.  But thanks for  the pictures - that really does help a lot.  Do you have one taken from the far left of the left fairway?  That really does intrigue me, given the disagreement on that and you saying both are correct and giving a third view, then Ryan giving another view... Geoff S. also told me this was a fine way to play the hole, again depending on the pin position.

BTW, again my memory is failing - where do you walk by 7 green so you can check out the pin?  Can you see it from 2?  That's the type of thing I always try to notice on courses... especially those like Rustic where pin positions can change play way back to the tee... I didn't even think of that first time through.

One more question also:  where is the tee from which we'll play it as a par 3?

Obviously this is one hell of an intriguing golf hole.  I still dig my pahdnah's way of thinking though - decisiveness sure does lead to better results!

TH


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2004, 09:19:31 PM »
Tom,
You can check out #7 from either #1 green, #2 tee or #6 tee.

It will undoubtedly be from the back of #6 tee and elsewhere. Its a straight shot from there.

As a par 3, its going to be interesting from there--at least at first, just because of the "mump." (I like that term--thanks!)

Ryan, I might be out there. Don't know yet. If I am, its just to play a few holes and/or practice, which I normally don't do.

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2004, 09:24:06 PM »
Funny how we wouldn't even have this discussion if the flash flood had flooded 13 rather than 7  :P

Regarding my inquiry as to if anyone wants to play at 1:10 tomorrow, its an after 1 tee time, so 35 bucks for a weekend!

If anyone has a photo request of the damage, let me know and I'll grab my camera on the way out the door.

I do believe you see 7 green from 2 tee.

The only problem I see with coming in from the right...the ONLY time I feel like being on the left helps, is a right pin...given the fact that hitting through the fairway and going at a right pin isnt going to leave you with many options other than find a way to cut a 60 yard wedge, or putt from the left of the swale.  In this instance, I think playing from the left gives you a better chance at getting it close...

BUT, I think the marginally improved chance at a 6 foot birdie putt is outweighed by the fact that its a tough shot to get it up the left neck.

To a right pin, would I rather have a 60 yard wedge with a bad angle, or a 120 yard PW with a bad but not quite as bad angle?  I think either way, I'm going to have a screwy 25 footer for birdie unless I do something exceptional in either case, and the chances of messing up and missing the green all together are much smaller with the 60 yard shot (for me, of course...)


rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2004, 09:25:40 PM »
Ryan, I might be out there. Don't know yet. If I am, its just to play a few holes and/or practice, which I normally don't do.

If you see a 20 something with a buzz cut and a Middlebury College Blue Hoofer bag, wave at me and say hi!

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2004, 09:31:44 PM »
Just act like you dont know him if you see the bag. j/k

I would love to play tomorrow but looks like a no go.

As for 7 As david says it all depends on the pin placement for me. It is much eaiser to attack the back pin from the front fairway. if the pin is front or middle I go over usually just right or the green. I carry the ball pretty far so it is just a question of pin placement for me.

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2004, 09:46:23 PM »
This continues to be fantastic - thanks again, gents.

So ok, several places to check out the pin on 6 - the key being to MAKE SURE AND DO SO!  Man it is wild to me how that completely changes the choice off the tee.  Not many holes exist where the pin position makes so much difference... add that to everything else going on, and all I can says is this is one damn cool golf hole.

So for our par 3, back of 6 tee... looking at the aerial, that makes sense.  Gonna be kinda odd playing that hole and then just walking back to play 7, but what the hell.

TH

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2004, 09:48:27 PM »
MU eh? Well, I know a certain author who would like you. (Daniel Wexler)

Will do. Chances are with the gas prices the way they are, I'll probably go around here somewhere and practice. As those New Yarkers say, "My city club." :)

Go Dodgers.

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #84 on: March 05, 2004, 09:49:17 PM »
Yes it is! I have played it a number of times and many ways and have yet to make a birdie. the green is the killer part. I have hit 3 wood to lay up and 3 wood to carry the wash. Interesting in my book

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #85 on: March 05, 2004, 10:48:12 PM »


Frankly, I have no idea why everyone is talking about choices on #7. The day I played, into the wind I was playing in, there was only one choice:DRIVER down the left ;D.  What a wonderful hole.


Thomas_Brown

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #86 on: March 05, 2004, 11:00:36 PM »
I'm not that thrilled w/ #7 strategy.
To me, it doesn't really work.  In concept it's ok, but it just doesn't work.

I like the green.
I like the fairway from the layup position.
But to me, the threat of the ball running through that fairway if you hit driver is just too great.  That fairway is not soft enough to accurately rely upon it stopping.
So for me, it's a layup hole.

(I've played the hole about 8-10 times now and tried the driver 3 or 4 times and even 3 wood once.)

For me it's about a 4 iron which goes about 200 yds.

sonofalawyer

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #87 on: March 05, 2004, 11:11:04 PM »
ah mr. brown,

you've had the experience that i've had.  hitting a wood through the second fairway.  i'm wondering if we adjusted our angle a bit, perhaps played it a little more aggressive (left) we might have enough room there.

unfortunately, it's hard to do this kind of experimenting within the round.

pj

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #88 on: March 05, 2004, 11:12:23 PM »
The Middlebury College Hoofer Bag does wonders for one's game, but doesn't, among other things, get you into the NCAAs.....

-Brad

p.s. 5 and 4 at Knollwood Fairways
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

DMoriarty

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #89 on: March 05, 2004, 11:45:55 PM »
Tom and Mr. Falawyer,

I've seen many people hit through on their first try or so, but many people seem to get the shot down with some experimentation.  There is, after all, a substantial upslope that should help hold the ball.  Perhaps it's the angle or the ball flight.  

Tom, if I remember correctly , you hit a high fade, probably not the best ball flight for that fairway.  Perhaps you should try a left handed fade, I've noticed a few players having success with that shot.    

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2004, 10:01:32 AM »
Thanks for bringing that up David. I was just getting ready to say that myself! :)

Tom B., You mean to tell me that with that beautiful swing of yours as well as the distance you can hit it, you can't hit a hook or draw? Seems to me that given your talent you CAN do it. As soon as that fairway is back in play, were going to go out there with a small bucket until you can! :) How many times are you presented with this dilemma during a round at Rustic Canyon? (This is where the variety of shots comes in.)

But that brings up a point. You say:

"I'm not that thrilled w/ #7 strategy. To me, it doesn't really work.  In concept it's ok, but it just doesn't work."

In this case, You say it doesn't seem like the strategy is working. Actually, the hole has you on the defense much the same way it has me, only the difference being that I can't carry the ball 220 yards and you can, but your in fear of running the ball through the fairway. As David has pointed out earlier, if your anywhere right on the fairway across the wash, its going to be a tougher shot because of the uneven lie for a better player that didn't have the shot, in this case, "the draw" off of the tee, which, if pulling off that shot could allow you in some cases even a putter or sand wedge in. Now that would be for a good player like yourself.

Personally, that is all the more reason to learn how to hit that shot, and don't tell me it can't be done! I've seen you play, and I know your talent! :)

So, in your case, No, your not thrilled with the strategy because it presents a problem for your game--you don't want to, or simply can't pull off that shot--(YET!) Therefore the concept is more then O.K., its presented you with a shortfall in your game. Thus, the strategy of the hole itself is quite defending and it is in fact calling on you to be a better player. For me, thats another great definition of a GREAT golf hole.

So, what are you going to do about it!?!?!?!?!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2004, 10:03:30 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2004, 10:40:26 AM »
Just a little side-note here:  I can't hit a draw to save my ass, and I think the hole works perfectly, in concept and execution.

 ;D

But anyway Tommy, you did just give one recipe for a great golf hole.  Well said!

Now as for you, quit living in "fear" and start thinking positively!
 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2004, 01:14:37 PM »
Tom, Please do recognize my ever-continuing flair for the dramatic. It may not be fear per-say, but it is a gut wrenching excitement that gets the heart pumping. Isnt't ha what great golf should be all about?

Thomas_Brown

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2004, 01:27:01 PM »
Tommy N - I think the 2nd part of the fairway slopes left to right and a little downhill.  To me, it's a little too far out on the control range for me.  The wedge or 9i from the layup is not that much harder than the 60 yard SW.

It's just not #10 at Riv.
That's a tee shot which should be a layup for me, but I go for it for the dramatic element of a putt or a short chip.

To me, the angles on the aggressive line aren't as good on #7 Rustic.

Another compounding effect there is that the rough and grass outside of the fairway is really inconsistent.  The 50 yard shot is often much harder than the 120 yard shot because you missed the fairway by 10 yards and are in a clump or dirt spot.

Still, the green is great.

But then again, I'm the only guy who thinks #15 at Rustic is like #7 at Muirfield.

Tom

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2004, 02:08:25 PM »
Tom,
Where did the comparison of Riv #10 come into this? I don't think any of us have tried to portray this in any comparison to one if not the World's Greatest short par 4's. We maybe homers, but please, give us some credit! :)

So in other words, the natural features and natural maintanence of the course, (as it was designed) where your ball might end up from a semi-poorly executed tee shot don't deserve some challenge?

(Help me here)

Are you saying you have a lot more trouble with a 50 yard shot that went through the fair green (fairway) compared to a 120 yard one in the fairway that has still yet to cross the hazard, and is now faced with the daunting task of holding that green in relation to the "mump" (once again, great word!) at the right front to center of the green?

If so, I think its a shot you do have the talents to make, but maybe not enough attempts at trying--and that isn't a bad thing. I just don't think you should disqualify a hole because because it exposes one of your few weaknesses. It should be a shot that inspires you to at least try--one that makes you a better golfer then you are. And this goes for anyone and anybody of any handicap or talent. Its all about strength and weaknesses and how you chose to take them on during the round. This is why so many have such a score-card and pencil spirit--they want the holes to excentuate their strengths and not challenge them. Even Kye Goalby and myself were talking of this recently about his own father--a former Masters champ mind you; and his cousin Jay Haas. As professionals, they see the game from one standpoint--how good of a score it will give them--and I commend that competitive spirit, but ultimately it leads to a blindness of recognizing GREAT golf. Much in the way you have described.  (I'm not trying to be confrontational here, so if you would rather take this off-line I have no problem with that. I was going to call you anyway to see if you wanted to play tomorrow!:))

But continuing, this is what your 50 yard shot from the rough sounds like to me. The only difference is you have been conditioned, or in this case, over-conditioned from perfectly maintained rough grass that doesn't exactly penalize a good player on most of the courses you see today, unless its soaking wet and/or unusually long.

The bottom line is, on that hole, you need to have a draw from the tee to avoid that hitting through the fairgreen to an uneven lie where the sand hazard and the mump come into play, and then find YOUR shot into the green. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to attempt it on certain days if you don't think you can do it and you don't want to risk the gamble. That is why you are presented with the alternative--A seemingly mindless mid to long iron from the tee with little problems to contend other then hitting it too far, and/or getting it behind the old dead tree, then a tough and semi-blinded approach that has even more to contend with.
For a player of your talents, I can't think of a better choice of options that your fully capable of pulling off, yet still can present you with a reward or a penalty for failure to do so.

For a player of your capabilities Tom, I have no doubt you can attack this thing--you just have to find moves on how to do it. Just like chess.

Thomas_Brown

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2004, 06:18:30 PM »
You're probably right - Just haven't figured out the tee shot by trying it enough times.  The Jay Haas thing is so true.  After spending the last few weeks w/ Perez and his buddies, it's so much a numbers game they made me feel stupid about how I play.  Their comment - producing results has so little to do w/ ball striking - so true.  BTW - to answer your question - a Pro V1x lasts 2 holes.

It could be me, but there's some amount of no man's land out there in terms of great short par 4's measuring 350-370.  I'm sure I'll be contradicted, but I can think of several greats at 290-320 & 370 and above.

Tom

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #96 on: March 07, 2004, 01:20:35 AM »
I still don't think length off the tee really affects how you tackle this hole.  Dave M is right, the slope on the fairway on the other side of the wash is significant.  But, in my mind, that slope is why I don't usually try to carry it.  I'm not worried that my ball will go through, but I find it difficult to hit the half-chip shot with the ball above my feet.  

Again, I think this is a perfect example of how a person's golf game dictates the strategy on a hole, rather than the hole dictating strategy to the player.  The decision to carry the wash is not dictated by whether or not you can do it, but by the ability to execute the shot after you have made the decision.  Because hitting a 9-iron or wedge to a blind green doesn't bother me, I find it preferable to a half-sand wedge with a marginal stance.  I guess if that makes me a "lob wedge head case," then so be it.  But, I have had several kick away birdies using this tactic.  (I won't call it a strategy since a lot of people don't agree with it)  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #97 on: March 07, 2004, 01:37:43 AM »
Dan,
Well, I'm fat drunk and stupid, and I think its a pretty cool hole, so what does that have to do with the price of chicken in Milwaukee this time of year?

(My feeble attempt at very dry humor)

Please go back and read what I have written about this hole--were basically saying it and playing it the same way. The only difference is that because I lack length, I'm not going to be able to make it from the blue tees unless they're playing up.

If you can hit a draw 220 yards on the carry with a driver, then you will make this shot without being through the fairgreen everytime. You will have a pretty reasonable if not very good lie. You can even run it in there with 6 iron or more if you wanted to, if you felt that a half-wedge wasn't your strength.

AND.....

Yes, if your too long in the right fairway, it is a precarious lie, because you have the "mump" and the side of the green to contend with. Still, its doable. Why? Because the ball is above your feet--still a pretty controllable lie for a lofted club. You can almost tell how much its going to pull to the left. You also have to understand that its an even more precarious lie for both David's and Lynn because they are left-handed Mollydockers (You know, "SCURGE!") The ball will be below their feet, while its above yours. This is undoubtedly why David notices it so.

Now go out there tomorrow morning and make the shot! ;)

« Last Edit: March 07, 2004, 01:42:02 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #98 on: March 07, 2004, 01:50:24 AM »
Man - I feel like I am getting attacked because I don't want to overpower the hole!!!!!   ;)

For a bunch of people who contend that technology and a longer golf ball are destroying golf, why are you chastising someone who is not automatically using length as an option????

BTW - I am not disputing the merits of the hole, but the contention that the ability to carry the wash makes it the right option!  I again stand by the idea that the person dictates strategy, not the hole.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2004, 01:51:30 AM by Dan Grossman »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #99 on: March 07, 2004, 01:59:45 AM »
Dan, Now you know how I feel on #14 tee! :P

« Last Edit: March 07, 2004, 02:00:04 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

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