Your focus is on the hole, not the backdrop, as you play the hole.

This is the part I wonder about. In a setting like this, shouldn't at least some of the focus be on the backdrop? From the picture, you'd almost think that the architect didn't realize that such a panorama existed behind this green when he designed the hole.

The biggest factor that the picture fails to capture is the amount of green movement.  This is a very tricky, severe green!  I used to play there quite a bit from '89 to 93 because a very close friend was the head professional. The Tillie bunkering was among the best I have ever seen--maybe better than Winged Foot.  That being said, there are some great pictures of this hole with the Tillie bunkers.  Aesthetically, the Tillie bunkers looked better.  However, Rees ruined them beyond recovery, so this is a significant improvement that I eagerly look forward to experiencing.

Corey:

You haven't seen what Old Macdonald will look like yet.  And neither have I, so we'll have to hold judgment on it.

You and Mike H. have both professed that we can only comment on this Sleepy Hollow hole as a faithful or unfaithful restoration -- but I don't see how that argument flies when Gil and George have CHOSEN to take Tillinghast holes on the same course and "Raynorize" them.  Those holes aren't restored; they are interpretations of what Raynor might have done, and they've generally been praised here [I haven't seen them myself].  But doesn't that decision make it fair game to discuss the merits of this style in this location?  They could have decided Tillinghast was the man to follow.  Did Tillie leave this hole exactly as we see it today?

I do agree with you that it would have been unlikely to route the two holes across the gorge as anything but par-3 holes ... it's much steeper and deeper on that part of the property than these pictures show.

Tom D.

Perhaps my first statement threw you off?  I have argued since the beginning that Sleepy Hollow is only a restoration in the sense that we are attempting to restore a classic look to the property.  That could be Tillie or Macdonald, indeed, I wanted no part of that decision and it was the most important question I asked anyone we interviewed.

In my post, I am not sure that I  professed  anything.  I asked a simple question, in the view of this website should Gil and George have proposed something else for this hole?

I attempted to make three points in my post:

1. the spot for 16 is one of the great views for a par #3 in golf and IMO is better than any other spot of a Macdonald/Raynor par #3.

2. It was unlikely that anything other than par 3's would fit this spot (gorge) based on the terrain.  

3. and regardless of what style we prefer, it is the uninspired Rees rendition that is the non-classic blight.

It never really occured to me to not  attempt to faithfully "restore" the two "template" holes (reverse redan, short) that we had photographic evidence  for in light of our interpreting the other 16 holes.  

I strongly believe Tillie left #16 substancially the same.  The only difference seems to be that the bunkering around the green becomes a horseshoe by 1940 with the back unbunkered.  It was only in the 50's that all the bunkering starts to get chopped up.



Some people don't like the style that is fine with me, in fact, I expected half the members within the club would not like the style.  Luckily, that has not been the case.

As for Tillie vs Macdonald/Raynor at Sleepy Hollow ?  Well you can argue that with Bahto now, he's been on my speed dial for four years and I need a break. He's your problem now

Seems to me that the historical significance of Sleepy Hollow should be part of this discussion.  Whether you like template holes or not, Sleepy Hollow represents a huge step in C.B. Macdonald developing his craft.

After Macdonald finished the National Golf Links, he had set a new standard for golf courses in America and abroad. There was nothing else like it. As I see it, National spurred Mackenzie and Ross and Tilly and all the others on to great things.

While Macdonald was developing his style in 1911 at Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock, the other architects, quite naturally, had to "step up their game" and so they did. Sleepy Hollow was so early in Macdonald's career, it is extremely significant. The fact that he was hired by names such as Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Choate, Colgate, Macy, Astor, Harriman, etc, etc. to build this course simply adds to the historical importance of the course.

TD, I am surprised that you would suggest that because Tilly added 6 or 7 holes in the back of the property (I think due to a land swap that required the removal of some Macdonald holes) that it might be reason to consider removing what Macdonald built here and convert to a Tilly style. The course has HUGE significance in the history of Macdonald, and his engineer, Seth Raynor. I fail to see any meaningful significance to the Tillinghast holes in the back of the property, which have none of the beautiful views in the front of the property.

As Corey said, Gil Hanse had no other way but to restore the 16th as Macdonald built it, and he did so beautifully. (especially after the club made the decision to go with the Macdonald style...) To think that this hole might be re-constructed based upon what some other people think a short par 3 should look like is ludicrous.

If you read Ran's recent review, you will see a close up picture of the green, and you can see the subtle yet spectacular contours of the green. The trap presents an effect, the green contours make it a fantastic short hole, and the view makes it world class.

Some people may like other architectual styles better than Macdonald's, but there is no escaping the historical significance of this architect, this course, and this hole.

John Cullum's comments reminded me of one of my favorite Abraham Lincoln quotes:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

For me (as one who has only seen this picture and not played the hole) it looks like the hole would be challenging and fun to play.  But visually, I find the design of the green complex to be unappealing.  The slope into and out of the bunker looks too consistent, as though it is an artificial trench dug out by a backhoe with no blending of slope or contours...With my little brain and knowledge, this could be the actual point of the design....But when I look, my brain just says it is not a harmonious picture.  Personally, I prefer golf holes that are harmonious with their environment.

Disharmony however is jolting and attention getting and perhaps, for some, may be great design.

Bart

Bart,

I'm curious. Did you see Ran's close-up picture of the green?

Quote from: Bart Bradley   But visually, I find the design of the green complex to be unappealing.


[quote

Bart,

I'm curious. Did you see Ran's close-up picture of the green?

Yeah Bill,

I did and this is one of the reasons I said that I thought the hole was probably challenging and fun to play.  The upclose countours of the actual green are great...Couldn't they be the same and not have the uniformly carved out bunker/trench around the green?  From the tee, though, I think I would find the whole of the green complex to not fit the surrounding topography...I probably would greatly enjoy playing the hole, I just would prefer to "look at" others.

Does this explain any better?

Bart

Bart,

OK, I think your problem is with the bunker, not the green.

What is the distance from the shortest tee?

I'm thinking about my wife playing the hole.  She's about a 18-20 index now, with decent strength.  If it's 130 to the center, she can hit 7 iron over the bunker.  Anything longer, and she can't get the trajectory to hold that green.

Short holes are for squares.

I think Dev Emmett needs to be mentioned.

He build Garden City in 1897 and was already building courses like Leatherstocking by 1909.   We also know he travelled abroad frequently to play and study the great courses, and we also know he helped Macdonald with NGLA.

Chicken or Egg?

That is interesting, Mike. I did not know Emmett help Macdonald. But Macdonald was playing the Old Course 20 years earlier while in college,forming the opinions that only young adults can form...
I think the egg was hatching then