[TEPaul]

"John..."We need to stay away from his words and evaluate his work."....this is especially true when it comes to evaluating my stuff."

Paul:

What is that term you use that I can't figure out?

I've heard you say something like:

"We need to "funk" this hole up or "punk" it up" or something like that.

What does that mean? Do we need to put some nose rings in some bunkers or something? Or maybe give a green a spike hairdo----figuratively speaking, of course.

[Brad Klein]

Tom Paul,

I'm shattered. I never knew until now that I was GAP's second choice and a replacement for Geoff Shackelford. i renounce everything I've ever said about the value of restoration.

[paul cowley]

Tom.....I think many artists, designers, singers, poets etc. communicate poorly about thier work and can even lack the  ability to communicate in general.....they let thier work do that for them.....and then Jay and Brad et al, can help sort it out.

I've heard Tom Fazio ramble a bit and lose focus while speaking.
He is a much better designer than a speaker, which is the important thing.

[paul cowley]

"John..."We need to stay away from his words and evaluate his work."....this is especially true when it comes to evaluating my stuff."

Paul:

What is that term you use that I can't figure out?

I've heard you say something like:

"We need to "funk" this hole up or "punk" it up" or something like that.

What does that mean? Do we need to put some nose rings in some bunkers or something? Or maybe give a green a spike hairdo----figuratively speaking, of course.

It probably means that I'm not yet satisfied, and that some part of the design needs more work....and its probably something I use as part of my verbal design tools when communicating my thoughts to shapers....which can be a challenge at times.

Of late down in Mexico, I've given up talking pidgin and just grab a rake or shovel for much of the day and work along with the amigos....its good though.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
I'm shattered. I never knew until now that I was GAP's second choice and a replacement for Geoff Shackelford. i renounce everything I've ever said about the value of restoration."


You didn't know that? I never told you that?

Well, I'm sorry about that but don't worry about it---you will never be my second choice again. At that time I'd never heard you speak but now I have about half a dozen times.

You're a Doak 10 on the golf architecture speaking circuit Brad (anyone should drive a hundred miles to hear you speak).

But back then at that GAP thing I'd never heard you speak but I had heard Shackelford at something like the New Jersey agronomic conference in Atlantic City. He was really good.

But you have to understand that I was weaned back in the late '40s and early '50s on what was known as "The Friday Night Fights" on TV so I grew up appreciating a really good free-for-all. Does that surprise you?  

And at that GAP conference I was certainly more than aware of Shackelford's extreme antipathy for Fazio so I just couldn't imagine a better choice for a real free-for-all than Fazio vs Shackelford in that GAP restoration forum.

But he wouldn't do it. I tried everything I could to get him to come, even telling him this just had to be the best setting imaginable for him to take on Fazio but he just wouldn't do it.

Actually, my first choice when I proposed something like that in the first place was Coore and Crenshaw and they were seemingly going to do it but when the date was given to them Ben realized he had a tour tournament.

I sure as hell never thought of asking Fazio to speak at a restoration forum. That happened a couple of years later and somebody else proposed him.

[Bill_McBride]

Well... you know what the Mayan's say:

Nya b’a’n tu’n toc tjemin jun tx’yan, ku’n nlay mojin tuc’iy aj ticy’x k’on tib’aj k’ak’.
It is not good to hit a dog because it will no longer help you in case you need to pass the flames of a fire.

Words to live by my friends.  

Amen RJ....good post BTW

Dick also speaks fluent Italian!  

[Tom_Doak]

Eric:  That's a very nice post and picture at the top of page 2.

Tom P:  I agree with you as to Tom Fazio's attitude toward restoration, except that the work at Oak Hill years ago was a substantial change (a re-routing actually) so I can't imagine that he decided to go away from "true restoration" at that point.  It's more likely he never believed in it at all, and he just decided after Oak Hill it wasn't worth the hassle.  I would guess that he's only gotten back into that side of the business because he decided that it was good for his reputation to be seen as "the man" at all those classic courses [particularly since his own clients don't host Tour events on TV very often].

His approach to consulting work bothers me only because he isn't up front at the very beginning of some jobs.  Riviera was looking for someone to restore their golf course (while adding length) and I don't think Mr. Fazio came in and told them that was a waste of time and they should just try to improve it.  I think he took the job and then did what he thought was best, even if it wasn't what they were asking for.  That would fit with his personality of sometimes seeming to answer a different question than what was asked.

I wish somebody could get him interested in looking at a black-and-white photo of one of these courses to see what was there to begin with, but I don't think it's going to happen.

[Kyle Henderson]

I find it alarming that a man who is completely opposed to "perpendicular hazards" is an influential member at Pine Valley and has been entrusted with making changes to that course in recent years.

Hopefully, he won't grass over Hell's Half-Acre...

[George Pazin]

I've always felt there was as much bashing of Fazio's "bashers" on this site as there was actual Fazio bashing, but then again, I'm biased in favor of the posters, so take that for what it's worth. Most of the biggest Fazio criticism has been related to his work on classic courses, not his original work, and it seems mostly warranted, even if, as Tom P states, it's the members of said classic courses who are ultimately responsible.

Also, I'm always curious to know if, with some of the bigger firms, when they have one or two standout courses, if it is the result of  the principal being more involved, or if it's a particular associate getting his shot and producing something special.

Eric -

Obviously water isn't a hazard, it's a feature.

[Mike_Cirba]

What I don't understand is why the respective memberships of our leading golf courses feel they need them to be "improved" by Tom Fazio?

This not only includes new tees, but new bunkers, new greens, new fairway configurations, and the sadly hilarious if Orwellian part of it is simply that it's often titled "Restoration".

They include (and I'm probably missing some);

Pine Valley
ANGC
Merion
Oakmont
Winged Foot
Riviera
Oak Hill
Inverness
Quaker Ridge

Can anyone tell us honestly that the net effect of his overall changes at any of these golf courses has "improved" any of them?  

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

Certainly a few of the reasons that Fazio gets hired by clubs is:

-Name recognition...he's quite famous
-Large body of work...most people have played something of Fazio's
-Accolades....he has a pretty good track record in the ratings
-Perception...he's high dollar, high profile...he must be THAT good

I'm sure there are others.

Joe

[George Pazin]

Are any of those clubs suffering from lack of attention?

[kconway]

I have belonged to 2 Fazio courses:  Conway Farms in Lake Forest, Illinois and The Canyons Course in Palm Desert, California.

These courses are quite different from one another, but both share some common charachteristics:

  - many enjoyable holes
  - a few very, very good holes
  - no bad holes

Yes I would rather play a classic old course or a new Doak or Coore/Crenshaw course, but these Fazio course stand the test of being a joy to play on a daily basis.

[John Kavanaugh]

The Riviera is the only course listed I have played and I honestly believe that Fazio made it better.

[Mike_Cirba]

George/Joe,

That's exactly what I don't get?

Why the level of insecurity??

My lord, these are courses that for almost the past 100 years have been the best of the best in this country.  

For the most part, many of them had been relatively untouched by significant architectural changes for 90% of that time.  Why the sudden rush to revise?

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

I'm not sure the rush to revise is all that sudden. I think most of the greats have been getting nip and tucks for most of their lives. We see a lot being done now, too, and I think we usually attribute it to the distance/ technology issue. But, in reality, haven't most clubs been doing something or another every few years throughout their histories?

Joe

EDIT: Mike, damn thee for editing!

[John Sabino]

Jay - Nice article. Your use of prose as usual is exceptional, although I think you're a bit tough on Fazio. I see an inconsistency in your argument about how he alters the landscape so much. It's tough to criticism him for that so harsly when others you admire do the same. And Pete Dye didn't move a lot of dirt at Whistling Straits? I agree with you that all the hype around the "greatest" courses he has built for the well known New York real estate genius are over the top. I think you under-estimate Shadow Creek, though, which is at least as good as some of the Dye courses you mention. Give credit to Fazio for being a master marketer and building his brand. And every architect can't be a clone of Doak or Coore/Crenshaw. Fazio courses are fun to play for the majority of golfers and this type of diversity is good for the game, although I agree with you that costs have run amok making the game less accessable to the long term detriment of the game. Joe

[Kalen Braley]

While I've never played any of his courses, I think what concerns many on here is what he does to old/pre-existing courses, not so much the ones he builds from scratch.

After having read various threads about the work he has done at Riveria, Merion, and ANGC.  Additionally being able to see what he's done to Riveriea and ANGC with TV coverage, it seems that the changes he is making on these classic beauties is about him and his legacy as opposed to the course and its own individual legacy.  Its similar in my mind to hiring a well known artisit to go to a museum and "update/removate" old paintings/sculptures/exhibits with his own style/twist to it.

So while Fazio may not be the one to intiate the restoration/updating process, it would be nice if he could should a little respect for his predecessors and try to return things to thier original form as best as possible.  Or at the very least try to make the changes in the same spirit as the original architect.

If not, no one lives forever, and there is this thing called karma...and sometimes its a bitch!!

[Joe Hancock]

Looking at a sculpture or a painting is a little different than playing an ever changing game on an evolving, living, breathing piece of land.

Joe

[TEPaul]

"I've always felt there was as much bashing of Fazio's "bashers" on this site as there was actual Fazio bashing, but then again, I'm biased in favor of the posters, so take that for what it's worth. Most of the biggest Fazio criticism has been related to his work on classic courses, not his original work, and it seems mostly warranted, even if, as Tom P states, it's the members of said classic courses who are ultimately responsible."

GeorgeP:

While a club's membership (those at clubs involved in architectural projects) are probably the only ones who can be ressponsible for what happens I think you and the rest of us need to understand something---a reality in fact.

I've been involved in one way or another with enough clubs and the people in those clubs going through architectural projects, mostly those called "restorations", to know that most every time those in the clubs involved in the projects simply don't really know what they want going into those projects. They just don't understand what it's about or even what to specifically ask for.

And why would they? You find me five people today not in the business of architecture who've been involved in more than one project---particularly a restoration project. I bet you can't find five people who've been involved in more than one.

And so what have they got to go on really? So they hire an architect and tell him they want a restoration or whatever and then basically the architect comes up with some plan and tells them what to do.

Tom Doak is absolutely right above when he said Fazio should look carefully at some old black and white photos. Any architect should if he's truly trying to do a restoration of old architecture. If he doesn't do that then pretty nearly every time he'll just come up with something else and the product might end up disappointing the club.

The necessary component of really good research is getting better and it's pretty hard for anyone to do a good restoration project without it.

[TEPaul]

GeorgeP:

Here's an interesting example of the reality of what I said above.

Wayne and I got involved in basically a bunker restoration project at The Cascades in Virginia.

We went down there with a ton of old Flynn material from the original course and luckily the organization had a ton of old photographs.

But even with all that we told them a whole bunch of times that WE ARE NOT ARCHITECTS, that we were only historians and we did not want to do the project without a really good restoration architect.

But one thing after another the organization decided not to use an architect.

Do you think that made me and Wayne nervous? You bet it did.

So what we did is go over the entire course with the contractor, with the super and with the guys from the organization that were involved in the project and then we sat down with them for about a day and told them to just completely copy as exactly as they possibly could Flynn's plans and all the old photographs.

We knew that would be necessary going into that project but it was not really until it was over and done with and by all accounts a success that we really understood how lucky we were to insist that they just totally copy what they had available and not to deviate at all.

Most clubs haven't done it that way and neither have architects, contractors or you name it.

If people like Wayne Morrison and me, two guys who really don't know much about the nuts and bolts of architectural construction, drainage, grass, you name it, could pull something like that off don't you think a world famous architect like Tom Fazio could?

Of course he could.

Tom Doak is right. If you want to do a really accurate restoration, no matter who the hell you are you just have to have the restoration material available and use it and stick right to it.

[Jay Flemma]

Leave it to Tuco the Cat to come in only when he can hide behind other people's legs.  

Fazio deserves to have those of us who claim to defend great architecture speak with him and tell him our concern about the positions he takes.  Going to pressers and speaking to the golfing public that redans and bunker complexes from St. Andrews shouldn't be built and telling raters to "take points off" for perpendicular hazards is bad for all the great architecture we all try to promote.

Brad Klein, you of all people should be concerned about what Fazio said and did.  You stand in charge of rankings and you have been integral in the design field, yet you will sit idly by and give this a pass?

The rest of you should at least find what Fazio said concerning as well.  You make a big deal of how much you love golf course architecture and brag about how much you know, but when the time comes to defend it against a frontal attack, you sit around joking around like frat boys.

And by the way Chris Brauner, the last U.S. Opens were held on courses designed by - in reverse order - Fownes, Tillie, Ross, Flynn, Park,  Tillie, Maxwell, and Neville...the facts belie your position.  The ratio of truly great fazio courses that he built, in proportion to the number of courses he built is remarkably low...considering how few doak and strantz have built by comparison, their percentage of masterpieces is greater than Fazio by an order of magnitude.

[Brad Swanson]

Well, I see what's going on in here. I am smack dab in the middle of a good old fashioned cat fight.


-J Peterman

[Adam Clayman]

For those who weren't around in the old days, the archives of which are either not integrated, edited or lost, into the new platform, might be interested to know that Jay's gist is exactly the same as most of the bashing that went on then. The difference is Jay has backed up these assertions with facts, quotes complete with a corrolary example based in academia.

The fact that Jay can inspire such vitriol speaks volumes.

Jay, Please take Brad's editorial advice and economize.

[hhuffines]

Mr. Flemma,

While youre on a roll, could you please explain Tobacco Road as a masterpiece?  I happily drive past it to play other courses regularly.  IMHO its way too short and has too many
weak holes - probably not even top 25 in NC.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()