[Ken_Cotner]

I have played five of the courses and can see four of them in the top ten.. The course that surprises me is Brights Creek.  It was in a beautiful location and had some very good holes but had more average holes than good holes.  It was ok Fazio but nothing special.  Why is it getting such good marks?  Am I missing something?  

I enjoyed it a lot.  Many fun shots, especially around the greens.  Not as easily walkable as Forest Creek (I believe Bright's is developed by the same group).  I'd play it again in a heartbeat.

I haven't played any of the others, so impossible for me to compare.  If you held a gun to my head, after one play I'd probably pick one or both Forest Creek courses over Bright's.

[Craig Sweet]

Sorry to confuse anyone BUT I said speaking of the initial post, that of the TOP 10 courses, only two were accessible to the average Joe and they carried a pretty stiff greens fee...

I do not care about the economics of building the Rock Creek Cattle Co....at least not in this thread...

I DO CARE that people posting here often bitch and moan that people just "don't get it"....they don't get firm and fast, they don't know a Ross from a Doak, they don't understand the ground game and strategy, etc. etc....HOW are they to ever understand a great golf course if they do not have access to them?

Brad Klein, so a golfer in Casper has access to a good course...good for him!  We need more access to good courses...but sadly, most people do not have access to a great course...and printing a list of the top new courses, and eight of the top 10 are private, does nothing to increase the understanding of the average Joe as to why these courses are great....

You can argue all day whether Chambers is better than Erin Hills or Sand Hills is better than Ballyneal, and the average Joe will have no idea what you are talking about.  Thus, I see no value in rating a golf course other than giving a handful of geeks something to talk about, and a feather for someones hat.

[Jim Nugent]

Here in Montana we are about to be blessed with several tremendous golf courses, but I can not see how the average Joe will ever be able to play any of them.

If Doak's RCCC makes the list in 2008 so what?  A van load from my local muni won't be going over to play it, and that means a van load won't have any idea why that course is "rated"?

The Declaration of Independence does note some inalienable rights all men have.  Alas, access to golf courses is not one of them.  

As long as we have private property, many people will never play all sorts of golf courses.  The day we stop having private property, almost no one will ever play golf again.  

[Dan Kelly]

Minimum of 6 votes, with some getting as many as 85.

Thank you. I suggest that, when you do these ratings in the future, you include that information, course by course -- in a column of its own:

"Number of Raters."

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

Yes, my fee is considerably higher than Dan Hixson's -- perhaps five times higher, in fact.  But we might have built Pacific Dunes for less than he built Bandon Crossings.  Plus, we did our part to help teach Tony Russell how to build cool features so he could go help Dan.

Still, at the end of the day, the green fees for Pacific Dunes and Bandon Crossings aren't determined by construction costs or design fees, they're determined by supply and demand.  Bandon Crossings is targeted at a lower-priced market, but I'm pretty sure that Bandon Crossings would charge $150 if they could stay full at that price.

[jim_lewis]

Craig:

There are many things in  this world that are not available to the "average Joe". Why should golf be any different?  The answer is to strive and work to get beyond "average". Most of us who have managed to play many of the great private courses were not born with "connections". They were developed over many years. I probably never played more than a couple top 100 courses before I was forty. I have now played many of the great courses, but I had to work at developing the friendships and business contacts to allow that to happen, and it took time. It is good that some things are not immediatly availabe to the young. They provide things to aspire to and work work for.

JIm Lewis

[John Foley]

I'm suprised by some of the statistics from this list

- 35 private courses. The number suprises me. I know it's self evident. Build a great course for a membership or to sell real estate and it can or will be thought very highly of.

- 1 course where lodging is manditory, though a resort.

- 14 courses that anyone of us could walk up to today and play. Rates run from $26 walking / $40 riding at The Home Course to $165 for The Classic Club & Lake of Isles North Course to $210/$265 for Bandon Trails (sorry but those numbers border on obscene). Those #'s would go up significantly for many of the places in high season.

At these rates, so much of the great new places are out of so many golfers. Glad to see GW offsets this list by rating the most affordable courses by state.

[John_Conley]

Craig:

...

JIm Lewis

YES!  He's alive!  I don't think either of us posts as much as we did years back.  Great to see you on here and GREAT that even "Crusty" provides a voice of reason on the topic.

The problem with drawing the line on access/affordability is that I'm not sure where anyone should draw the line.

[Joe Bentham]

Tom,

Average Joes don't play Bandon Resort. However, I suspect the average Joes of Bandon area will play Bandon Crossings. Is your one time fee to create Pacific Dunes so much higher than Hixson's that it necessitates charging five times as high a green fee?

Garland--
The average Joes of Bandon play the resort for free.  I haven't played Crossings since sometime in July, and price has something to do with it.  45$ for the crossings or Pac for free?  You make the call....

[Craig Sweet]

Jim...let me make this clear....rating courses in my opinion is silly and serves zero purpose for the average Joe...it really has nothing to do with public/private....cheap to develop vs. expensive...whether one is connected or not, whether one has "earned" the privilege of playing private courses....I simply find the whole exercise a waste....

However, the fact that 35 of the 50 courses listed are private, is one reason the average Joe cares little about course ratings...if there is anything to appreciate about "ratings" it comes through the experience of playing a great golf course....the "ah...I get it" moment when the average Joe can compare experiences and understands why a course is number one...

It's funny, but I have played with a couple of guys that really have bragged up the fact that they have played all the Top 100 courses or have played all but two of the Top 100...and I was left empty....as in so what??  I mean, I'm not sure what they want me to think other than they have and I haven't??

[TaylorA]

What is the title of the new Sebonack book?

"Building Sebonack"

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Sebonack-Bradley-Klein-Haralson/dp/0978717201

I've got that one - when I read "new", I thought John K. and Pat M. meant in the last month or so. Thanks.

[Dan Kelly]

... at the end of the day, the green fees for Pacific Dunes and Bandon Crossings aren't determined by construction costs or design fees, they're determined by supply and demand.... I'm pretty sure that Bandon Crossings would charge $150 if they could stay full at that price.

What sad words those are.

Wouldn't it be a fine thing if someone, somewhere, were determined to supply the world with great, publicly accessible golf courses and keep them affordable -- demand be damned?

Dreamin', I know. You can never be too rich -- right? Right?

[Sean_A]

... at the end of the day, the green fees for Pacific Dunes and Bandon Crossings aren't determined by construction costs or design fees, they're determined by supply and demand.... I'm pretty sure that Bandon Crossings would charge $150 if they could stay full at that price.

What sad words those are.

Wouldn't it be a fine thing if someone, somewhere, were determined to supply the world with great, publicly accessible golf courses and keep them affordable -- demand be damned?

Dreamin', I know. You can never be too rich -- right? Right?

Dan

Some people do try to do just as you describe.  Unfortunately, the word "municipal" often pops up.  That is most defintely a bad word round these parts!

On the privately funded affordable side of things, I believe what you state was exactly Jim Thompson's goal in setting up Angels Crossing.  

I share Craig's concerns over accessibility.  I am not saying we all have some god given right to access, but surely there is middle ground like in the UK. Mind you, I doubt I would pay the guest fee at some of these places too often.  Access sounds wonderful, but it still takes cash baby!

Ciao

[Craig Sweet]

Obviously, there's some good, affordable, public golf out there....Brian Curley's course in East Missoula (Canyon River) is pretty good and runs about $45 with cart.....here's the thing...those locals that have played it, are beginning to get it.  The cost for a season pass is around $700....$200 more than the muni I work for..and after a few plays they are seeing what a good golf course is all about...and they understand that its worth the $200 additional cost.

[John_Conley]

It's funny, but I have played with a couple of guys that really have bragged up the fact that they have played all the Top 100 courses or have played all but two of the Top 100...and I was left empty....as in so what??  I mean, I'm not sure what they want me to think other than they have and I haven't??

Craig, life is short.  We're all here and we're all going to die.  When you go, what will you think back on?  If someone enjoys golf and sets their quest on playing the Top 100 - let 'em.  I wouldn't take it as a "I've played them and you haven't" snub.

What do you do?  What is it that people will say about you when you're gone?  "Craig Sweet grew the largest pumpkins in the county," or, "Craig Sweet loved his wife and loved traveling to foreign lands with her at his side."

Everyone should have something they like.  Otherwise what is the point of being.

Here lies Craig Sweet.  He worked like a slave and never enjoyed what the world had to offer.

That's not anything I want on my epitaph.

Rankings are silly - for you.  Just like scrapbooking is silly to me, but I'd never imply that people shouldn't do it.

That seems to be your implication here.

[Kirk Gill]

I'm pretty sure that Bandon Crossings would charge $150 if they could stay full at that price.

Maximization isn't always pretty. It begets the notion of "let's see just how low a quality the suckers will accept at the highest possible price."

That said, Tom Doak is himself breaking this proscription with the Mira Vista project here in Denver. What he charges is none of my business (as I'm currently not in the market for a GCA), but if I remember correctly he is taking considerably less than market value to re-design a pedestrian existing urban course here with the goal of providing quality architecture for an affordable price. Who knows - if this project breaks into someone's "best whatever" list at some point in the future and gets some quality pub - maybe other architects will follow in Mr. Doak's footsteps.

Maybe Tiger Woods will..........oh forget it.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Although it didn't make this list, Jeff Brauer has built a very nice and affordable course in Newton, Kansas called Sand Creek Station. We paid $37 on the weekend and that includes cart and driving range. The site was not especially interesting and mostly flat, but Jeff was able to create some interesting stuff there.

http://www.sandcreekgolfclub.com/view.asp?id=165&page=2860

[Joe Bentham]

... at the end of the day, the green fees for Pacific Dunes and Bandon Crossings aren't determined by construction costs or design fees, they're determined by supply and demand.... I'm pretty sure that Bandon Crossings would charge $150 if they could stay full at that price.

What sad words those are.

Wouldn't it be a fine thing if someone, somewhere, were determined to supply the world with great, publicly accessible golf courses and keep them affordable -- demand be damned?

Dreamin', I know. You can never be too rich -- right? Right?

That someone is Mike Keiser.  Compare it to its competitors (Pebble, Pinehurst, etc.) and I think Bandon still ranks as a affordable vacation.  The biggest change I've seen since I've been here is the increased number of "average Joes" coming out here.

[Richard Choi]

Thus, I see no value in rating a golf course other than giving a handful of geeks something to talk about, and a feather for someones hat.

Isn't that the whole reason why all of us are here?

[Dan Kelly]

... at the end of the day, the green fees for Pacific Dunes and Bandon Crossings aren't determined by construction costs or design fees, they're determined by supply and demand.... I'm pretty sure that Bandon Crossings would charge $150 if they could stay full at that price.

What sad words those are.

Wouldn't it be a fine thing if someone, somewhere, were determined to supply the world with great, publicly accessible golf courses and keep them affordable -- demand be damned?

Dreamin', I know. You can never be too rich -- right? Right?

That someone is Mike Keiser.  Compare it to its competitors (Pebble, Pinehurst, etc.) and I think Bandon still ranks as a affordable vacation.  The biggest change I've seen since I've been here is the increased number of "average Joes" coming out here.

Joe --

If I came to Bandon, played two rounds per day at the resort, and stayed there, eating and drinking modestly, what would it cost me per day?

Dan

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan - in case Joe doesn't see this, and answering as an average Joe who has gone there a few times, well... it depends greatly on the time of year.

Room rates are here:

http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/rates.cfm

Golf rates are here:

http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/green_fees.cfm

Food and drink is reasonable; figure about whatever you'd pay to go out and do that in Minnesota.

Caddies are extra...

Add it all up... it's definitely priced out of this average Joe's league for summer.  But winter I can do and have done.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Tom --

Thanks. But I don't think you're an Average Joe -- and the fact that summer prices remove you from the market suggest to me that Bandon is not what I'd deem "affordable."

I wonder what the green fees would be as a break-even matter, with the golf courses as stand-alone propositions.

Dan

[Kalen Braley]

Dan,

I would be inclinded to agree as well.  When you consider peak summer fees, playing 36 holes, travel, food, and lodging, affordable becomes a very very relative term.

I would suspect just one day alone would be more than a weeks pay for the average american joe....

[Joe Bentham]

Dan,

I would be inclinded to agree as well.  When you consider peak summer fees, playing 36 holes, travel, food, and lodging, affordable becomes a very very relative term.

I would suspect just one day alone would be more than a weeks pay for the average american joe....

Most golfers aren't "Average American Joes".  And as a yearly splurge I'd say Bandon is affordable and accessible even for those of us that are.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan:

Well, I'm a lot more of an average Joe than most in here, I'd guess... but less than others, for sure.  In any case, I was just trying to answer your question - I guess I shouldn't have added the "editorial" at the end.

But that's more interesting anyway, so....

I concur absolutely that Bandon is in no way "affordable" and hasn't been for a good long while - at least not in the summer, that is.  I'd say most travelling golfers can afford it in the winter though.

TH

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