[Michael Blake]

Ed, this isn't a reply to your last post.  I know that was directed at MWP.


I like the 11th...My observations are from only walking the course a few times and watching play, but...

Visually a beautiful view as you look up at the green complex from the framed sloped fairway.  Very cool section of the property.

Looked like you definately wanted to keep your approach below the hole as I saw some tricky puts from above it.  

Though I wondered about the two front bunkers that are 30yds short of the green, thinking "these are never in play with these guys." (crump cuppers/good players)  Then realized how many regular players/members must hit into them trying to recover from a bad tee shot and would then face a brutal subsequent shot.

[Ian Andrew]

Pine Valley has stood the test of time - the courses that are being brought up like Sand Hills and Friars Head will also need quite a few decades to really find their true place in the history of architecture. Courses must elevate or drop appropriately after the intial "flush of fancy" has long past. Greatness in golf - like wine - takes time and can't be rushed. Until the course has had the changce to mature and prove itself - it remains an upstart rather than a serious contender for Pine valley's place.

Only time will tell.

[MHiserman]

Basphemer.

[TEPaul]

Wayne and PaulT:

Regarding the 11th green at PV, I believe it is some iteration of Alison's plan. The problem, for me, anyway, is trying to interpret what Alison drew for it and how he tried to work off of something that was there from Crump.

I'll look at it again but it's always been hard for me to interpret his design instructions via what was there.

But that green like the others of Crump's that were original and problematic was basically a matter of Crump creating some really radical tiers that just didn't work well in play.

That included a really radical tier on the back of left #9, a couple of radical tiers on #11 and on the back of #17. #6 was also closer than it is now and was way too sloped for decent play.

Then of course Crump's original #8 was pretty radical in its shape combined with its very small size.

The bunkers short of the 11th green are originals. I know they seem sort of odd and unstrategic but nevertheless they are originals.

The entire 11th hole in a routing sense, is undeniably Harry Colt's, in my opinion.

In Crump's routing iteration before Colt arrived there was no hole remotely in that place. The same for #9, and perhaps #8 and some others on the back nine.

[TEPaul]

Another interesting situation at Pine Valley is the evolutionary iterations of routing and holes in the 12-17 stretch, particularly around #14.

In a separate article published in 1990 retired PV professional George Govan mentioned that the design of #14 was actually his father's, Jim Govan, who was Crump's golf professional/clubmaker/construction foreman.

I've never been too sure in what state of construction #14 was in when Crump died in early 1918.

What I do know is there was a most fascinating iteration of #14 that looked to be a just amazing "cape" hole concept. It was only drawn in on the "blue/red line" topo and it also appeared as a single hole drawing from perhaps Walter Travis that explained what it would've been a lot better, in my opinion.

To imagine what it would have been---imagine this:

The tee was around where the present 14th tee is now but you played at a green that was probably right at the beginning of what is now the 15th fairway.

The options were to try to carry the ball downhill and directly onto the green about 240 yards away over the corner of the lake. The safer option was to hit the tee shot to the left which today is the "nature walk" from the 15th tee to the 15th fairway.

To me this could've been some awesome hole but the problem with it was probably just that from there Crump wasn't too sure what to do about the second par 5 that he had to have on #15 or #16.

I think he considered making #15 a long par 4 (Alison recommended that but the club did not accept it) and then making #16 his second par 5 by putting the green on the peninsula to the right of the present new back 15th tee. I guess that would've entailed some kind of a water carry for the second or third shot.

With this kind of thing one can clearly see that Crump was continuing to slide back to some of his hole or par iterations on the routing that he did before Colt ever arrived.

On that initial routing #16 was a pretty long par 5 and Crump was probably considering ways to get back to that.

The last words he spoke with his good friend Father Simon Carr was that he was not certain what to do with #15 as a par five and how to make it different enough from #7.

[Phil Benedict]

Some things achieve such iconic status that a consensus emerges that they cannot be surpassed.  For example, to men of a certain age it's almost axiomatic that Sandy Koufax in his prime is the best pitcher they ever saw or Jim Brown the best running back.  The Beatles have the same stature in pop music.

As the long time #1, Pine Valley may be such an icon that it is almost by definition unsurpassable.

[Willie_Dow]

Tom -  Looking at the fifth green on Sunday made me wonder if that ridge they put in (I believe in the '70's) was too severe.

That was an impossible back to front slope prior, but it is too forgiving now IMHO.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think it is strange that a course that..

1.  Is not the number one course people most want to play.
2.  Is not the best course in the country to host a guest.
3.  Does not have the best history of tournament championships.
4.  Is not the best course to play with fellow members.
5.  Is not the best course to host a major championship.

is a lock for number one.

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

I say, thank God. Maybe with this one it's just about the architecture, huh?  

Willie:

I'm not sure what you mean about #5. The front right on that green was minimized some time ago as it used to be virtually impossible to hold a ball anywhere on that right front area.

[John Kavanaugh]

JohnK:

I say, thank God. Maybe with this one it's just about the architecture, huh?  

I do think so...There is no other explanation.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

I don't know about Sandy Koufax but Jim Brown was the best running back ever.  

As for the older crowd (of which I'm a member) who hang on to their heroes from their era, some amazingly still think that Jack Nicklaus is the greatest golfer ever.

Sadly, I'm afraid not.  

[TEPaul]

"I do think so...There is no other explanation."

JohnK:

No there really is no other explanation. With this one its just about the architecture.

My GOD, how AWFUL.  

[Phil Benedict]

Phil:

I don't know about Sandy Koufax but Jim Brown was the best running back ever.  

As for the older crowd (of which I'm a member) who hang on to their heroes from their era, some amazingly still think that Jack Nicklaus is the greatest golfer ever.

Sadly, I'm afraid not.  

Jack certainly fit into that category of icon deemed to be unsurpassable.  But in some ways I think he proves my point - look at how difficult it has been for Tiger to dislodge Jack in some people's mind, despite a record so clearly superior at a comparable age?  Tiger isn't just shoving Jack aside, he is blowing up Jack's house.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

I think you're right---and Earl is probably right about Tiger even if he claimed he had no idea why it was him who was chosen to be the earthly father of the second coming of Christ. But for our particular interest (golf) it is quite something that the second coming of Christ has appeared on earth as a professional golfer, don't you think?

[Phil Benedict]

Phil:

I think you're right---and Earl is probably right about Tiger even if he claimed he had no idea why it was him who was chosen to be the earthly father of the second coming of Christ. But for our particular interest (golf) it is quite something that the second coming of Christ has appeared on earth as a professional golfer, don't you think?

Tom,

You would have thought the Lord would have come up with something more worthy than golf for the second coming, but it appears to be so.

[TEPaul]

"You would have thought the Lord would have come up with something more worthy than golf for the second coming, but it appears to be so."


Phil:

Why do you say that?

I mean the first one was originally something like a professional sport fisherman, wasn't he? So the second one is a professional golfer. Maybe the third one will be something like a professional equestrian rider or a professional motorcycle racer, or maybe even a professional Funny Car drag racer.  

[Jim Nugent]

According to Golf Week, CPC already has surpassed PV.  A pretty healthy majority of GW raters rank Cypress number one over PV.    

[Mike_Cirba]

According to Golf Week, CPC already has surpassed PV.  A pretty healthy majority of GW raters rank Cypress number one over PV.    

Yeah, Jim, but those particular GW raters are wrong.  

A healthy case could be made for CP in it's present form playing better than PV in its (with too many trees and with the newly manicured, sand-pro'd "waste areas"), but if it's just based on architecture and great holes, there is absolutely no way that CP is better.

I'd imagine that some raters probably knock back PV half-a-point or so for the current presentation, which would account for CP rising to the top.

[Michael Dugger]

Seems to me the respective treehouse calls it like this.....

1a PV
1b Cp
1c Sand Hills
1d NGLA

With Shinne a solid 2

[John Kavanaugh]

Seems to me the respective treehouse calls it like this.....

1a PV
1b Cp
1c Sand Hills
1d NGLA

With Shinne a solid 2

Not even close.

[JESII]

Please explain to me again...because I'm a bit dense...why is it so terrible for Pine Valley to begin running the sand pro through their bunkers on a weekly basis now. I don't quite get it. I am one of the guys that is all for playing bunkers as hazards and I would fully support removing all rakes from all bunkers on all golf courses in the world...but I don't quite understand how smoothing the footprints monthly[/i] helped Pine Valley gain the #1 position in the first place and now doing so weekly[/i] is cause to drop it down the list...please educate me...and please leave the trees out of this answer.

Yes, that's right, for years and years they ran a big tractor through the bunkers monthly and now they run a sand pro through weekly. Which machine do you think would be more sympathetic to these small scrub bushes you all love so well...a big huge tractor with gigantic rakes rigged on the back? Or a small little sand pro that can manuever between and among most of the shrubbery?

And...they don't have any rakes!

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

I don't know what they're doing differently.  

The only thing I do know is that they look a WHOLE LOT MORE tended to than they EVER DID IN THEIR HISTORY.

Even Tom Paul would concede as much.  

I'm not sure whether to play from them or meditate in them.  

[JESII]

Come on Mike...I was expecting blazes on that one...I teed it up perfect for you and you come back with the meditation garden line again...not impressed.


I think it is a bit ironic that you guys that are so bothered by the increased frequency of raking, and it's corresponding penal nature, are the same guys fuming about getting the trees out of the bunkers to restore the intended recovery options...

I think the course would be more stunning than it is if the trees were cleared to the outer edges of the bunkers...I've said that all along...but it wouldn't change a the way you play the golf course at all.

I just can't get on board with the frequency of maintenance staff raking the bunkers effecting the courses status as the best in the world.

[archie_struthers]

 

Been away for awhile...though have been lurking occasionally LOL   bad putting you know


the coolest thing about Pine Valley...having witnessed both champions and hackers attempting to tame her...is that all levels of players can have some moments of brilliance ...even a fabulous stretch of holes ....many can linger...few can last

but very few ...if any,win the war...

the shots individually ( in non-tweaked conditions) are eminently playable...with some liberal room for error...which equals much short term fun for the participant


that's the true greatness....it's the sum of the parts you know

[TEPaul]

Jim:

In my mind, the far more regular maintenance (or not) of the sand surfaces at Pine Valley has nothing to do with ranking or it being #1 or #2  or whatever.

I just think the course was so impressive that way (in a natural sense) not so much because it did it but because it was the last one in the world that's considered to be highly ranked, quality architecture etc, etc. that did it that way.

I just always thought that was such a great statement to make in golf and architecture and maintenance, particularly for a course that was recognized as the top in the world.

But listen, I'm certainly not laboring under some mistaken belief that they did not maintain their sand areas for so long simply to make some philosophical point about bunkers as hazards or bunkers being rugged areas.

They didn't maintain them for so long, as they do now, for the simple reason that maintaining them as they do now was just really expensive to do and they just didn't do it.

They always maintained the more formal bunkering around greens and such to be more consistent (not with a sand pro though) than the less formal bunker sand areas that must have gone almost completely unraked.

And if they used big tractors to rake sand in the past I can tell you from experience that didn't go very far.

Obviously the reason was a tractor raking sand areas just couldn't remotely get into many areas where players balls could get.

Even in the Crump Cups when I started playing in them did not have sand raked in massive areas like HHA on #7 or #16 walking all the way down #3, up #4 to the right of #6, #9, #10 and on and on.

All those areas were just a sea of footprints, and one would certainly have to think if they were occassionally raking those large areas with a tractor or whatever back then they certainly would have done it just before the Crump Cup.

It definitely got golfers' attention more than all those sand areas today although back in that day no one thought differently of it because that was just the way Pine Valley was and always had been even if no other courses seemed to be.

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