[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

That is a most interesting post above and a very good reason I think you might be about the best researcher I know about! Where did you come up with all that Crump family history?

I too am interested in facts, not speculation or theory, particularly now regarding the Colt contribution to the design of Pine Valley.

As we all now know there has been a rumor going around almost since Pine Valley was conceived that Colt designed the golf course or at least a good deal of it! And that he also created the routing for Pine Valley. I think, if I'm not mistaken, that Tom Doak may have said or implied (on this website) that he had seen a Colt routing. At the very least, I think he said or implied that Colt contributed more to the design of Pine Valley than it appears to me now that he did contribute.

First of all, what Colt did or didn't do for Pine Valley and its design is only interesting to me as a fact--it in no way means I don't have respect for Harry Colt--or that I might seem to be giving George Crump more respect or credit than Harry Colt, for some reason--nothing of the kind!

I did talk with Mayor Ott the other day and it's probably possible for me to go down there and look at the Colt drawings and also the extremely important Crump site plan (routing) and to see if the date of it is verifiable as pre-Colt visit.

I do know the course of Pine Valley today extremely well and I can certainly see how it was from all the available Dallin aerials from the 1920s and 1930s (Mayor Ott has them all at his house in large blowup). The course today is largely the way it has always been, by the way.

So if that Crump site plan (routing) is verifiable as pre-Colt and the Colt hole sketches are very little like what the holes of Pine Valley are now and basically always have been, then please tell me how it could be concluded any other way than what Finegan and Shelley already have concluded.

To me that conclusion is obvious--that Crump routed and designed Pine Valley and should be credited with it--excluding those holes and areas that everyone is fairly familiar with like Tillinghast's recommendations, Thomas & Flynn's slight contribution, a couple of Maxwell redesigned greens and a Fazio green on #8. There are a few more minor things from others but basically the golf course is the same as it's been from the beginning.

It's very interesting to see an  advertisement from Colt & Alison from the 1920s taking credit for the design of Pine Valley, but as an established fact from that Ad that they did design all or most of the course (as it was built and is today) is meaningless! Or even that they designed more than I'm concluding!

Logical explanations for that advertisement to me would be:

1. That the advertisement is only talking about Colt's hole drawings and Alison's recommendations to the 1921 Advisory Committee. Finegan's conclusions, having analyzed all the comprehensive records at Pine Valley, are specific regarding Colt's contribution and also Alison's recommendations and what was accepted from them, what wasn't and why.

2. It is possible that even if Colt and Alison were referring to those relatively minor contributions it is probably legitimate (and not unethical) to list Pine Valley as a design credit in an Ad. As we all know a tome like Cornish & Whitten will list an architect as having design attribution even if they just did one hole or a part of one. This would also make more sense if Crump had decided to give Colt more design credit for some other reason (which has already been mentioned). Geoff Shackelford has been interested in this particular slant for a long time!

3/ Colt & Alison were just padding their architectural inventory and resume, knowingly or unknowingly, for some reason.

You can continue to site quotes and writings spread out over a number of years from people like Tillinghast and ask why there are inconsistencies in them. I have no idea why there are inconsistencies in them.

All I know is the way Pine Valley is and always has been and if that Crump routing that precedes Colt's visit can be verifiably dated and if Colt's sketches are unlike Pine Valley, then, again, tell me what possible conclusion could be made than what Finegan and Shelley already have made.

I just can't see any other way but to conclude the same thing.

[Jay]

Tom MacW,
Can you point me in the direction of Wind's article detailing PV?  
Thanks.
jay@alltel.net

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom MacW:<P>That is a most interesting post above and a very good reason I think you might be about the best researcher I know about! Where did you come up with all that Crump family history?<P>

Certainly this is evidence of what positives can happen when all of you work together and speak to each other nicely !!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinionmacwood7.html

[Tim Copeland]

Tom MacW:<P>That is a most interesting post above and a very good reason I think you might be about the best researcher I know about! Where did you come up with all that Crump family history?<P>

Certainly this is evidence of what positives can happen when all of you work together and speak to each other nicely !!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinionmacwood7.html

Yes...it is refreshing to get info instead of an Internet Posting lesson

[TEPaul]

Paul:

You were absolutely right---I did not know about the blue/red lines on the topo routing map during this thread.

It appears on this thread I still assumed that the routing map was Crump's as Jim Finegan said in his book.

Tom MacWood asked me a series of questions on this thread such as why Jim didn't include the routing map and Colt's hole drawings in his book. Tom MacWood had not seen Finegan's book and as you can see he eventually asked me if the routing map had a date on it and I responded I'd go check. I remembered seeing a date on it but I'd never looked at that date all that carefully.

So probably a few days later I went down there and looked at it and discovered it was the surveyor's date, and that's when I realized the mistake Jim had made and what it all meant.

That's when I began to figure out what the blue/red lines meant and the significance of them combined with the meaning of that date on the map. I'm not sure why Jim assumed that was the date Crump finished the map. When I asked him he said he didn't know but that he could certainly see how signficant his misassumption of what it meant was.

It's ironic and a bit more than a little indicative that so many people had obviously looked at that map hanging in the clubhouse for decades with all those blue and red lines on it and obviously no one had any idea at all what they meant. It didn't take me long to realize that the red lines and some others (other than the blue lines) showed all kinds of things that were done on the course for over four years after Colt left in 1913. Obviously Crump used that topo map almost to the end.

I do not believe that Jim actually mis-analyzed Tillinghast's articles and I was aware of all of them at that time too as they did create a timeline.

You can see that Tom MacWood wondered why the Tillinghast articles over the years seemed so inconsistent about what Crump and Colt did. He didn't say he thought Jim or anyone else misanalyzed them. He said for all he could tell Jim may've been correct in his assumption that the routing map was Crump's despite the fact that so many people had always assumed Colt must have done one. For all I know perhaps many people over the years looked at that routing map hanging in the clubhouse and just assumed it was Colt's for some reason.

I do not believe the Tillinghast articles actually are inconsistent at all and if one considers carefully what Tillie said in those articles over the years I believe they really tell a story on their own. You may not like to hear what I believe that story is but anyway...

That's just one part of all this and although those blue/red lines on the topo in the clubhouse revealed a lot that was not known before it was the comparision of both topos that really got interesting. Obviously no one had ever thought to do that.

And then the final piece of the puzzle was finally seeing that Colt hole by hole booklet that I don't think I saw until maybe 2004.

[Eric Pevoto]

TEPaul:  "I do not believe the Tillinghast articles actually are inconsistent at all and if one considers carefully what Tillie said in those articles over the years I believe they really tell a story on their own. You may not like to hear what I believe that story is but anyway..."

Don't make us guess!  

[Ian Andrew]

From an interview with Geoff Cornish:

"George Crump was the creator of Pine valley. Crump's father had been a british abassador based in Philadelphia. After Crump senior returned to Britain, Gerge Crump stayed on this side of the pond. He and Colt were distantly related."

Can anyone confirm this?

Is this how Crump came to work at Pine Valley?

[T_MacWood]

That is the first I've heard they were related...I don't know if they were or weren't. The Crump family - especially Crump's father and uncle John - had very close ties to England. They were well connected over there. The father was British vice-consul and they were both leaders in the St. George's Society (I believe thats what it is called).

As far as GA Crump staying over in England...his father died in 1892 (Crump was 20 or 21)...if he was over there as a teen ager I'm not sure what the significance would have been on PV.

[Paul_Turner]

Crump/Colt related?  Malvern isn't far from Cheltenham...?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ian,
Desmond Muirhead (I hate to invoke his name again, but he did in fact bring this up to me once) informed me that he had come across something about Crump & Colt being related, yet he couldn't remember where he had found it.

I informed Geoff Shac, who had never heard of it either, and I just eventually wrote it off as inconsequential rumor. (at the time, around 1998)

[Adam Clayman]

I'm curious if the recent Ebay GCA collaboration will make future volumes of PV's history?

It is an interesting story and think whatever you want, but PV should be grateful for the cooperation that was exhibited. Through action and inaction from members of this forum.

[Paul_Turner]

Paul:

You were absolutely right---I did not know about the blue/red lines on the topo routing map during this thread.

It appears on this thread I still assumed that the routing map was Crump's as Jim Finegan said in his book.

Tom MacWood asked me a series of questions on this thread such as why Jim didn't include the routing map and Colt's hole drawings in his book. Tom MacWood had not seen Finegan's book and as you can see he eventually asked me if the routing map had a date on it and I responded I'd go check. I remembered seeing a date on it but I'd never looked at that date all that carefully.

So probably a few days later I went down there and looked at it and discovered it was the surveyor's date, and that's when I realized the mistake Jim had made and what it all meant.

That's when I began to figure out what the blue/red lines meant and the significance of them combined with the meaning of that date on the map. I'm not sure why Jim assumed that was the date Crump finished the map. When I asked him he said he didn't know but that he could certainly see how signficant his misassumption of what it meant was.

It's ironic and a bit more than a little indicative that so many people had obviously looked at that map hanging in the clubhouse for decades with all those blue and red lines on it and obviously no one had any idea at all what they meant. It didn't take me long to realize that the red lines and some others (other than the blue lines) showed all kinds of things that were done on the course for over four years after Colt left in 1913. Obviously Crump used that topo map almost to the end.

I do not believe that Jim actually mis-analyzed Tillinghast's articles and I was aware of all of them at that time too as they did create a timeline.

You can see that Tom MacWood wondered why the Tillinghast articles over the years seemed so inconsistent about what Crump and Colt did. He didn't say he thought Jim or anyone else misanalyzed them. He said for all he could tell Jim may've been correct in his assumption that the routing map was Crump's despite the fact that so many people had always assumed Colt must have done one. For all I know perhaps many people over the years looked at that routing map hanging in the clubhouse and just assumed it was Colt's for some reason.

I do not believe the Tillinghast articles actually are inconsistent at all and if one considers carefully what Tillie said in those articles over the years I believe they really tell a story on their own. You may not like to hear what I believe that story is but anyway...

That's just one part of all this and although those blue/red lines on the topo in the clubhouse revealed a lot that was not known before it was the comparision of both topos that really got interesting. Obviously no one had ever thought to do that.

And then the final piece of the puzzle was finally seeing that Colt hole by hole booklet that I don't think I saw until maybe 2004.

Here's the thread where you uncover the topo discovery (I had a few of these bookmarked) the following year, May '02, the post is some way down the first page.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3994

Ian Andrew was the one who uncovered the very first topo map.  He posted a pic of it here.

[TEPaul]

"Ian Andrew was the one who uncovered the very first topo map.  He posted a pic of it here."

Paul:

I'd seen that for years but never considered the significance of it. I guess no one ever really did as It had always been in the super's office but it was never mentioned in any of the history books and I never noticed George Crump's note on the very top of it, as apparently no one ever did. Ian took a photo of it in Rick's office but the overhead neon light's reflection obscured that notation. That thing is certainly an important piece of the puzzle as it was obviously done before the blue/red line map and before Colt's arrival and is an excellent comparison. Your overlay of the two was really helpful.  

When one analyzes that stick routing and some of the Carr/Smith remembrances, it's interesting to see how some green sites were used or reused (like Crump's original 15th for the 11th) and also how it appears Crump wanted to get back to the 16th as a potential par 5 late in the game.

If you ask me that course may've been even better if the 14th had been that awesome looking par 3 cape hole (on the blue/red line map), the 15th a very long uphill par 4 (as Alison wanted it) and the 16th the par 5 with the 17th about 30 yards longer hole as Crump originally had it.

That original Crump stick routing now hangs in the clubhouse.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Thanks for the other thread too (you bookmarked them? Good thought).

Was Hawtree Colt's biographer? If so he seems to have made some pretty significant mistakes in dates of when Colt saw Pine Valley, unless one calls being off by a year insignificant. Colt likely wouldn't have come to PV in 1912 either because Crump didn't buy the place until perhaps Oct-Nov of 1912.

Once again it seems like Colt never returned to America after 1913.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Yes there are quite a few mistakes in Hawtree's book.

Colt did come back in spring 1914.  I always assumed that he designed Hamilton (Toronto) in the 1913 trip, but I was wrong he did it in 1914.  He was in Boston too...now trying to track if he visited PVGC.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

From everything I've see in the archives of PVGC which is comprehensive, Colt was only at PVGC once for a week or so at the end of May/beginning of June 1913.

I also wonder again about that purported $10,000 payment of Crump's to Colt that Joe Baker reported in 1950. There are no records at all of anything that large at Pine Valley but there are no records from Crump's purse either. Apparently no one from the club was ever aware of something like that. Baker also reported that Crump spent $275,000 on Pine Valley and as far as I can tell it seems like most of what he spent was on the course. That's a lot of money in those days but a good part of it may've been around the lake and the water works, and the other thing to consider is he basically didn't stop working on the architecture of the course for almost five years. (There's also that rather famous remark of Crump's when they kept asking him when he planned to finish the course his response was 'NEVER'.

I'm wondering if Crump may've paid Colt for seed for the course too as that was around the time some of the course was being seeded and they say Colt was a rep for Carter's Seed Co.

Do you have any idea when Colt returned to England from America in 1913? It appears PVGC or this area was his last stop on that trip.

There is another matter I just realized may be pretty important too at least as it regardis a mysterious routing map from Colt that so many from PVGC always thought existed.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Shivas Schmidt,
Welcome to Golf Club Atlas!

Enjoy the website!

Actually Dave brings up some really good points here. Stuff that TEPaul can get on top of--checking out the seed companies like Carter's who in fact provided the seed for PV...wait a second..is Carter's still in business

[Ian Andrew]

For reference,

From Canadian Golfer October 1915:
“When Mr. Colt came out to lay out the Ancaster course Sutherland [golf superindent] was with him continuously on the grounds.”

The work at Hamilton was in 1914, and opening was 1915.


Toronto's last visit was on May 12th, 1913 since I have the report.


Tom Paul,

What week was he at Pine Valley, I never thought to ask till today. I love the fact Colt's Plan says "as suggested by H.S. Colt" Was that signifigant or common to his plans?

Finally, the current 14th appears on no versions of any of these plans. Is that signifigant, because it's the only hole that doesn't?

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

Since the sources of when Colt visited PV are multiple, it looks to me like he only visited once in the last week of May and/or the first week of June 1913.

Again, Tillinghast's articles are pretty telling in the entire timeline of PV as he mentioned in an article in Jan. 1913 that Crump had finally allowed him to report publicly that the course was bought and planned (in that article Tillinghast infers he'd known of Crump's plans for perhaps a year but was apparently asked not to report it). The club's record show only one visit by Colt too.

And Colt's own reaction to the land at that time seems telling too, in that he was surprised how much it looked like Sunningdale. If he'd been there before I don't see why he'd be surprised by that in May/June 1913.

However, Tillinghast does mention that Colt was in Canada before he came to PV.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tom, now that some time has passed can you tell us a bit more about the map that was sold on eBay last year.  If it was a copy why were copies made at that stage? Did it throw any new light on the whole subject?

[TEPaul]

Ian:

The 14th is not the only hole on the Colt map ("As Suggested by Harry Colt") that's not the same.

The 12th, 13th and 15th were not built the same as they appear on the Colt map. Some are similar but there are significant differences on all of them. When Colt was there nothing was within 250 yards of where the present 14th green is. The reason for that is probably fairly obvious if one realizes what that area may've looked like in 1913. Essentially is was a swamp and when they finally looked at it and began to consider it and use it for the 14th green and 15th tee that land had to be created. The 14th green and 15th tee is an island that was completely created in that orginal swamp.

As to that Colt map (whole course map), it has a somewhat informal date on the bottom of it that says July 1913. That's one of the reasons I'd like to know if anyone can figure out when Colt left America in 1913 apparently never to return to America. It seems to me his visit to PV and the Philly/NJ area was at the end of his 1913 trip around the midwest and east.

If he was back in England in July 1913 one wonders if it was Colt who actually drew that whole course map. Brian Phillips, for one, who was one of the members of the syndicate that bought the map doesn't think so. He thinks it was probably drawn here by someone else here.

But if so, why would that map say "As Suggested by Harry Colt"?

Obviously for the simple reason that that course map is essentially a "whole course" rendering of his hole by hole booklet that has always been in the PV archives. There are a few differences between that whole course map and Colt's hole by hole booklet but not many. Of course the booklet has some text on the holes and the whole course map doesn't.

That basic Colt map is also obviously from the same surveyor as the original Crump stick routing that preceded Colt's only visit to PV as well as the so-called "blue/red" line map that has always hung in the clubhouse. The first two are topos and the one that says "As Suggested By Harry Colt" isn't. The first two are labeled "Propoerty of George Crump and the Colt map isn't. But other than that the basic makeup and arrangement of all the maps (from the surveyor) is identical.

So the question is if Colt was not in America in July 1913 did he take the blank copy of that basic Pine Valley survey map back to England, draw it and send it back or was it done by an artist or surveyor here off his hole by hole booklet?

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

The 12th, 13th and 15th were not built the same as they appear on the Colt map

Right, but 12, 13 and 15 are on the red/blue plan. The current 14th is not on that one. It's the only hole that isn't.

What I was getting at is the 14th is not on any drawing while the rest of the holes are. Is there an explaination?

[Paul_Turner]

Ian

If you look closely, the 14th is drawn in blue.  And in the same position as the 14th drawn in the Colt map that was auctioned.  Colt's green would be underwater now, as would the 15th tee.

Tom

Colt did return to America in 1914.  I'm not sure why you are writing that he didn't.  He may not have returned to PVGC.

[TEPaul]

Ian:

There is another aspect to that Colt map that maybe pretty telling that I doubt anyone on here would've been otherwise aware of.

That is that there has always been a strong rumor or almost general understanding around PV, particulalry in the old days and amongst some of the oldest members that Colt routed the golf course and Crump basically just continued to work on the actual design of the holes of the course from that Colt routing for years obviously changing a lot of the feature designs on all those holes (bunker placements and shapes, green designs and surrounds etc).

But why would those older members assume Colt routed the golf course?

Well, it just occured to me perhaps because at some point they had seen this map that says "Scheme of Pine Valley As Suggested by Harry Colt".

But what happened to it over the years?

That's a very good question. One of the perhaps three copies of it turned up on EBay last year to the complete surprise of everyone, including Pine Valley. That copy is the one the syndicate of GCAers bought off of EBay. On the back of it is the number "#3", leading us to believe there were at least three copies made of this Colt map. Apparently one of them had the greens, hazards and turf hollows colored as there is a blank color-code key on the bottom of this one with those distinctions.

Whatever happened to those Colt maps is unknown but apparently they were all lost for decades until this one eventually appeared on EBay.

I don't think this one ever left Clementon NJ because some bartender from Clementon bought it at a flea market sale and eventually put it on EBay.

[TEPaul]

"What I was getting at is the 14th is not on any drawing while the rest of the holes are. Is there an explaination?"

Ian:

Actually the present 14th green is on the "blue/red" map but only as a stick routing line (from the presnt tee to the present green site). That would've been under water at one time. That stick routing line is drawn in with pencil and some of the numerical notations aren't exactly handwriting I recognize (but interestingly it is the same pencil handwriting for one iteration of #13 green way out short and right that was not done (as well as with a short par 4 version of #14 followed by an iteration in red (Crump) of another par 3 version of #14.

The pencil lines could be anyone. It very well may've been Jim Govan's writing and stick line since his son George Govan (the pro for many years at PVGC who followed his father (Jim) who was once the pro/club maker and construction foreman mentioned that the idea of the present 14th was his father's.

PaulT is right that there is an area apparently circled in blue lines that would probably be the area that is the present 15th tee that I don't think was ever underwater---originally it was a small island in the swamp which would probably explain why even today it is actually a bit higher than anything around it.

Colt for whatever reason did outline in blue what were apparently significant elevations on the course even if they apparently weren't used for golf specifically. I think it was probably more for general reference (to sort of have some general elevation lines to refer to relative to where various
things were or were to go etc.

But the point is the Colt holes (13-14-15) both in the booklet and also on Colt's map do come within about 200 yards of where the 13 and 14th greens are and not more than about 150 yards of where the 15th tee is.

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