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Peter Pallotta

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #600 on: January 02, 2006, 08:10:26 PM »
I don't know whether or not the A/C movement was a significant influence on the golden age of GCA, but it seems to me that, if it WAS, the architects themselves wouldn't necessarily have been CONSCIOUS it (i.e., we needn't expect to find direct references to the A/C movment to prove that it was an influence.)

Here's an example from another dicipline (with apologies if this is way off track, but after 600 posts I thought one more couldn't hurt):

In the 1940s and 50s, Sartre and Camus were outlining the modern form of existentialist thought. I think it can be argued that, as the years went by, the basic tenets of their philosophy (sometimes correctly understood, but often not) began permeating western thought, and the deeper this went the less people were conscious of it. It seems to me, for example, that the fiction writers of the Beat generation (like Kerouac, and then later people like Ginsberg and Burrows) were influenced by it; and then so were comedians like Lenny Bruce, and maybe the hard bop players in jazz, and the art of Andy Warhol; and then later in the 60's the drug culture was shaped by it, and the anti-war protests; and in the 70s there were the punk rockers and their surface nihilism that took its cue from the existentialists, etc, etc.

Now, would it be hard to PROVE that Camus and Satre led to punk rock? Yes. But the fact that no one from the Sex Pistols ever MENTIONED them doesn't mean their influence wasn't there, and perhaps in a significant way. Johnny Rotten, for example, may have been unconscious of a lot of things.          

Peter

DMoriarty

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #601 on: January 02, 2006, 08:55:33 PM »
Peter,

This is a valid point, but unfortunately those who are so vehemently opposed to Tom MacWood's thesis refuse to recognize it as such.  

 . . .  As for John ("Johnny Rotten") Lydon, he may have been conscious of more than appearances let on.  Sid Vicious, on the other hand, was likely unconcious of pretty much everything.  At least he is now.  

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #602 on: January 02, 2006, 09:28:48 PM »
"...Johnny Rotten, for example, may have been unconscious of a lot of things."

PeterP:

Interesting analogies ;) and of course people may be unconscious of some things that are significant influences on them but in the case of the Golden Age of golf architecture's most significant influence then those who were part of it and who wrote about the most significant influence on them would have to be wrong, wouldn't they?  

Johnny Rotten? How do you know he didn't say existentialism was the most significant influence on him? Whoever the f.... he is maybe he said a lot of things were the most significant influence on him. I'll bet drugs were pretty high on his list, too. ;)        

"Peter,
This is a valid point, but unfortunately those who are so vehemently opposed to Tom MacWood's thesis refuse to recognize it as such."

Refuse to recognize what as a valid point, Moriarty? We've discussed that possibility plenty that the Golden Agers may not have been aware of a significant influence from the A/C Movement. Tom MacWood's reason was that the movement had no name in the Golden Age. It sure did have a name. And Tom MacWood says another reason they may not have been conscious of the A/C Movement is because it was so universal--eg basically implying its "philosophy" or what Tom MacWood calls its "approach" had permeated all art forms. That is simply not the case. Tom MacWood can keep telling everyone who disagrees with him that they don't understand the A/C movement but that's just bullshit---we certainly do understand the A/C Movement, we simply believe it was not what he's claiming it was for the simple reason it wasn't.

And of course not to mention the fact that the real significant influences on the Golden Age of architecture never have been some kind of mystery. It's influences are pretty straightforward and have accurately been identified and accurately written about for years.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 09:55:40 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #603 on: January 02, 2006, 09:32:20 PM »
DM.....I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that the Golden Agers were not aware of the AC movement and the garden architects of the times....what I and others object to is Tom Mac's flawed, connect the dots approach when trying to prove that somehow GCA is a direct outgrowth of the AC movement.....in an analigous sense, [ If I might borrow a little from Peter's excellent post], Tom Mac is trying to PROVE  that Sartre and Camus led to punk rock.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 09:33:45 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Peter Pallotta

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #604 on: January 02, 2006, 10:22:03 PM »
TEPaul, Paul

TE, if I understood you correctly, you're pointing out that writers like Darwin and Hutchinson didn't mention A/C directly, or as a direct influence on GCA.  What I was suggesting is that it's POSSIBLE that the influence of the A/C movement ran deep enough (or 'wide' enough) that writers of the time didn't have the same perspective on it that the passing decades allow US to have. Writer Z can mention writer Y as a major influence without realizing that writer X came first, and is thus influencing them both.    

Paul, yes, from what I can tell, you're right: "Tom Mac IS trying to PROVE that Sartre and Camus led to punk rock". He's taken on a big challenge, and that seems kind of neat to me. If Darwin and Hutchinson HAD said that GCA was directly influenced by the A/C movement, that would be accepted today as a FACT, and there'd be no need for Tom Mac to research and write his thesis; but since they didn't, there is.

I have a lot to learn about gca, but I'm interested and that's why I was so pleased to join this board. I can't really argue with either of you about whether Tom Mac is 'right' or 'wrong' on this issue; but I've read through parts of the thread and it gets dark and nasty at some points and I couldn't understand why. A thesis is just that, and the more the merrier I say...

Peter    

DMoriarty

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #605 on: January 02, 2006, 11:01:37 PM »
DM.....I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that the Golden Agers were not aware of the AC movement and the garden architects of the times....what I and others object to is Tom Mac's flawed, connect the dots approach when trying to prove that somehow GCA is a direct outgrowth of the AC movement.....in an analigous sense, [ If I might borrow a little from Peter's excellent post], Tom Mac is trying to PROVE  that Sartre and Camus led to punk rock.

Paul you have hit on one of the main problems with this entire debate.

Peter Pallotta offered a hypothesis that British Punk Rock had roots in the existentialist thought of Sarte and Camus.  I am sure this hypothesis could spark some interesting discussion among those interested in such things, but no reasonable person would expect Peter to "PROVE" the connection, because such would be an impossibly high high burden and would likely accomplish nothing but to stifle what otherwise might be a useful exploration and conversation.  Yet here you and others try to hold Tom MacWood to just such an absurd standard.  

This isnt math, it is history, and the key figures are all dead and the written record is extremely fragmented.   No perfect 'PROOFS' are possible here.  Yet that is what is demanded of Tom.  

Look, Tom's hypothesis isnt perfect.  Rather, in my opinion it has a long way to go.  That being said, he has drawn out a number of interesting circumstantial connections between the AC Movement and the supposed "Golden Age" of GCA.  We could help him test his hypothesis and lend supporting or opposing information where possible in the hopes that, even if his theory is never "PROVEN" true to your satisfaction, we all might learn a little more about this important period in the history of gca.  But then for the most part that hasnt happened, has it?  

Let's be honest here.  Most of this isnt about learning anything or even about spirited and productive debate.  Rather, Tom's most verbose detractor is here simply trying to do everything possible to demean Tom and his work and to derail any attempts at productive conversation.   To put it simply, this is about settling a score.   Now why you want to play wingman to this bitter and pathetic fool is beyond me, but that is your issue I guess.  Just don't pretend we are all here to innocently discussing a theory with which some disagree.  

What, if anything, would convince you that Tom MacWood's broad theory has enough credibility to merit a real discussion?  

As an aside, Paul, TomM's original theory wasnt really about the landscape designers, either in or out of the AC Movement.  Whether or not TomM has moved in this direction, I think it is worth exploring.  I asked you on another thread why on earth you would diminish the role of Landscape Gardening in the AC Movement-- I believe you said that Landscaping was nothing more than an addendum to the movement.  Care to explain?  

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #606 on: January 03, 2006, 12:07:30 AM »
yawn. Is it spring yet?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #607 on: January 03, 2006, 01:25:46 AM »
DM....simply put, I don't have an axe to grind with TomM or anyone else here, its not my style.

I agree that Tom's hypothesis isn't perfect...that is why
I have responded.

I am here innocently discussing a theory I don't agree with, but with an open mind....I have yet to be swayed, he needs to show more definitive material that I doubt exists.

In all that I have studied on things A and C, the landscape arts have never been treated as one of the main thrusts of the movement.....and they are given even less attention on this side of the AC pond...but they are mentioned....just not enough for me to care to explain further because I am finally starting to....yawn, agree with Adam :).

« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 08:39:39 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #608 on: January 03, 2006, 05:47:16 AM »
"TEPaul, Paul

TE, if I understood you correctly, you're pointing out that writers like Darwin and Hutchinson didn't mention A/C directly, or as a direct influence on GCA.  What I was suggesting is that it's POSSIBLE that the influence of the A/C movement ran deep enough (or 'wide' enough) that writers of the time didn't have the same perspective on it that the passing decades allow US to have. Writer Z can mention writer Y as a major influence without realizing that writer X came first, and is thus influencing them both."

PeterP:

Of course it's possible the architects and writers of the Golden Age did not have the same perspective on the A/C movement we may have many decades later. I've never suggested those architects and writers back then were not aware of it, I've only suggested they never mentioned it, and since they did write about what influenced them (significantly so) that should be taken into consideration---strong consideration.

I've also never once said on here that the A/C Movement had no influence whatsoever on the Golden Age of Architecture---I've only suggested that Tom MacWood's essay gives the A/C Movement far more credit for far more influence than I believe a thorough investigation of history surrounding this entire era could accurately assign to it.

That is not the only thing I disagree with him on. I disagree that the A/C Movement itself ever was some universal "philosophy" (Tom MacWood attempts to exapand it beyond a philosophy by labeling it an "approach") which basically permeated all art forms. There is little question that Morris and some of the A/C Movements primary proponents would have liked to see the movement become universal and perhaps permeate all art forms but there's a huge difference between what they hoped would happen with it and what did happen with it. For some reason it seems Tom MacWood has gotten confused between what the A/C Movement's proponents hoped for and what actually happened.

The A/C Movement was an interesting movement and one of a number of "movements" in the arts, as well as in political and social theory during the era it existed but it was by no means some universal philosophy that permeated all art forms. The A/C Movement due primarily to William Morris was essentially one involving building architecture and primarily involving "decorative" arts, certainly including furniture and many other "interior" items. It probably did have a fair influence on landscape design or landscape architecture for a time as well. Morris's philosophy also involved a good deal of political and social theory which was certainly notable at the time but by no means pervasive or generally accepted or embraced in the Victorian age and later.

To me these are the realities of history which are not that hard to understand in this case, and this is only a discussion group. There is nothing dark or nasty going on here. I think, as well as some others obviously do, that Tom MacWood has promoted a "theory", his theory has been thoroughly investigated on here and has been found to come up sorely lacking. In a phrase his "thesis" that the A/C Movement was the primary or even significant influence on the Golden Age of Golf architecture is unsupportable, in my opinion. I believe Tom MacWood's essay is revisionist history writing.

Furthermore, I believe Tom MacWood has in no way whatsoever been successful in defending or supporting his theory in these discussions the way he's gone about it, particularly telling everyone who disagrees with him that they don't understand the A/C Movement or to open a book. We understand it, I'm sure many of us have read plenty about it other than Tom MacWood's essay. In many ways I grew up around it but Tom MacWood seems to see no merit in that whatsoever. ;) I'm quite sure particularly Paul Cowley who is both a building architect, a golf course architect and who worked for some years in the art form of the "Arts and Crafts" style knows a good deal about it, a good deal more about it than Tom MacWood does. When a guy like Tom MacWood who's probably only plied the Internet and stuck his nose in a few books relating to the subject tells a guy like Paul Cowley he doesn't understand the A/C Movement or its relationship to other art forms, that is when I have to take serious exception to Tom MacWood and some of his drummed up "theories" as well as his approach to this subject and to his defending what he wrote about it.

The description of him as a "positivist" on this subject by another one of our knowledgeable contributors on golf course architecture who has a background in academia is very apropos, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 05:58:10 AM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #609 on: January 03, 2006, 05:49:00 AM »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #610 on: January 03, 2006, 05:59:38 AM »
Rich and Adam;

By all means go to sleep. We'll be glad to wake you up in the Spring-time.  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #611 on: January 03, 2006, 06:26:52 AM »
"TomP ....from memory I think the Astors had an estate on the Hudson near Rhinebeck, NY....but I'm not that interested to hit the books about it."

Paul:

That could be and I don't blame you for not being interested enough to hit the books about it.

Whatever the name of the Astor estate he was referring to is sort of peripheral to this subject, to say the least.

I only asked Tom MacWood to answer it because he's the one who mentioned "Rhynecliff" and the Astors and to me he seems to be pretty damn fast and loose sometimes with the names and attributions to people and places he throws around on this website apparently for no other purpose than to try to appear as if he's an expert on research. So I see no reason not to respond with questions about his "facts".  

I have no idea if the Astors had an estate called Rhynecliff, and I'm only asking him where it was and which of the Astors it belonged to. I do know that John Jacob Astor IV (Jack) had an estate by the name of "Ferncliff" that he inherited from his father William and his mother Caroline (arguably the most powerful "hostess" in the history of New York City). It very well may have been up the Hudson in Rhinebeck, N.Y. That certainly would make sense as the "American" Astors were from New York City.

Not just that----the Astors owned a shockingly large amount of the real estate in New York City. Jack Astor's cousin William Waldorf Astor, after dabbling in politics unsuccessfully completely ran afoul of the American press and emigrated to England in anger.

The American press often called the Astors "slum-lords" but slum lords or not Astor real estate in NYC and other interests made Wm Waldorf Astor what was considered to be the richest man in America and perhaps the world at that time.

Tom MacWood brought up the Astor name in connection with this subject on the A/C Movement and it's influence on the Golden Age of Architecture or perhaps the Astor's influence on Willie Park jr and I'm just wondering why he did that. I've asked him what he thinks the connection is but he doesn't seem to be particularly interested in answering, which in and of itself is not unusual.  ;)
 
 
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 06:30:26 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #612 on: January 03, 2006, 06:35:30 AM »
No, I think it rather more sounds like you were the one questioning Park jr abilities or inherent talent when you virtually try to imply in both your essay and on here that it must have been Hutchinson, Country Life Magazine and the A/C Movement that TAUGHT Park jr what to do in the Heathlands at Sunningdale and Huntercombe.

It was me who has said Park jr was a fine architect from the Scottish linksland (and that it is he who should be given the credit for the breakthrough in the Heathlands as most golf architectural historian understand and admit) and all he needed to produce the quality of archtiecture he did in the Heathlands was both the time and the money to do so. Again, it's you who's trying to imply he needed Hutchinson, Country Life and the A/C movement or their influence and that's horseshit and it always will be horsehit, although you're apparently incapable of understanding that or admitting it in this mindless fixation you seem to have to hold onto some theory you had which has been proven constantly to be bankrupt.

No need for the profanity.

I’m questioning all of golf architecture in general pre-Heathland. If you recall there was what some referred to as the Dark Ages of golf architecture prior to Huntercombe, Sunningdale, Woking, Walton Heath etc....Victorian architecture. The purpose of my essay was to try to identify some of the reasons why the revolution occurred.  

More time devoted to design and more money devoted to design were definitely important factors, but not the only factors. You should not lose sight of the fact that people thought TA Roberts was crazy to built a golf course on such a rugged site. The site was an important factor. Lets give some credit to Roberts, it was his idea to build at Sunningdale on that God forsaken site. Park deserves tremendous credit for accepting the challenge and producing a excellent golf course….it was a huge gamble for him financially, he agreed to built the course for fixed cost.

Time, money, the exodus into the countryside (surrounding London), the sandy heathland, the aesthetic attitude at the time, the popularity of outdoor pursuits, the growing popularity of golf, Hutchinson, Country Life…there were many factors that sparked the golden age.

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #613 on: January 03, 2006, 06:40:04 AM »
"In all that I have studied on things A and C, the landscape arts have never been treated as one of the main thrusts of the movement.....and they are given even less attention on this side of the AC pond...but they are mentioned....just not enough for me to care to explain further because I am finally starting to....yawn, agree with Adam :) "

Paul:

You should explain if and when you have the time. Those who read and contribute to this website should understand how lucky they are to have a guy like you contributing to this subject who has had a career in golf course architecture, building architecture, land planning and particularly A/C style architecture.

Adam Foster Collins is doing a thesis on aspects of "design" and has spent something like seven years in design and design school.

Do we really want some dilletante like Tom MacWood telling us and particularly telling them they don't know anything about the A/C movement or art forms? Do we really want a dillentante like that passing off his "out of the blue" theories on golf course architectur'e significant influence to go unchallenged or unquestioned?

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #614 on: January 03, 2006, 06:53:41 AM »
Tom MacWood said:

"I’m questioning all of golf architecture in general pre-Heathland. If you recall there was what some referred to as the Dark Ages of golf architecture prior to Huntercombe, Sunningdale, Woking, Walton Heath etc....Victorian architecture. The purpose of my essay was to try to identify some of the reasons why the revolution occurred.  

More time devoted to design and more money devoted to design were definitely important factors, but not the only factors. You should not lose sight of the fact that people thought TA Roberts was crazy to built a golf course on such a rugged site. The site was an important factor. Lets give some credit to Roberts, it was his idea to build at Sunningdale on that God forsaken site. Park deserves tremendous credit for accepting the challenge and producing a excellent golf course….it was a huge gamble for him financially, he agreed to built the course for fixed cost.

Time, money, the exodus into the countryside (surrounding London), the sandy heathland, the aesthetic attitude at the time, the popularity of outdoor pursuits, the growing popularity of golf, Hutchinson, Country Life…there were many factors that sparked the golden age."

Tom MacW:

There surely were and we should explore what the salient influences were that created the so-called "Dark Ages" and the eventual break-through out of that rudimentary early era in the British Healthlands. I would very much like to do that but in doing so that too will be a challenge to the validity of your essay entitled "Arts and Crafts Golf". The reason I say that is I believe history shows the reasons for the early rudimentary "Dark Ages" golf architecture really was NOT some "Victorian Aesthetic" or some influence of the Industrial Revolution, and that the breakthrough by Park jr in the English Heathlands was not primarily the influence of the "Arts and Crafts" Movment, or of Hutchinson, or of Country Life Magazine. I'm not saying those things may not have been some influence just nowhere near the influence you've been trying to assign to them.

I would also like to see you answer some of my questions about what connection the Astors had to Park, the A/C Movement or any of this. And where was Rhynecliff and which Astor owned it? And I'd like to know why you mentioned J.P Morgan or Drexel. What do they have to do with Park, the A/C Movement or any of this subject?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 06:59:23 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #615 on: January 03, 2006, 07:00:43 AM »
That is not the only thing I disagree with him on. I disagree that the A/C Movement itself ever was some universal "philosophy" (Tom MacWood attempts to exapand it beyond a philosophy by labeling it an "approach") which basically permeated all art forms. There is little question that Morris and some of the A/C Movements primary proponents would have liked to see the movement become universal and perhaps permeate all art forms but there's a huge difference between what they hoped would happen with it and what did happen with it. For some reason it seems Tom MacWood has gotten confused between what the A/C Movement's proponents hoped for and what actually happened.

The aesthetic philosphies of Morris and Ruskin were the prevailing aethetic philosphies of the period and effected the design of wide range of creative endeavors.

The A/C Movement was an interesting movement and one of a number of "movements" in the arts, as well as in political and social theory during the era it existed but it was by no means some universal philosophy that permeated all art forms. The A/C Movement due primarily to William Morris was essentially one involving building architecture and primarily involving "decorative" arts, certainly including furniture and many other "interior" items. It probably did have a fair influence on landscape design or landscape architecture for a time as well. Morris's philosophy also involved a good deal of political and social theory which was certainly notable at the time but by no means pervasive or generally accepted or embraced in the Victorian age and later.

Building architecture, all decorative arts, landscape architecture...that's not bad. What else was there?

To me these are the realities of history which are not that hard to understand in this case, and this is only a discussion group. There is nothing dark or nasty going on here. I think, as well as some others obviously do, that Tom MacWood has promoted a "theory", his theory has been thoroughly investigated on here and has been found to come up sorely lacking. In a phrase his "thesis" that the A/C Movement was the primary or even significant influence on the Golden Age of Golf architecture is unsupportable, in my opinion. I believe Tom MacWood's essay is revisionist history writing.

The essay does not claim the A&C movement was the primary influence on the golden age.

Furthermore, I believe Tom MacWood has in no way whatsoever been successful in defending or supporting his theory in these discussions the way he's gone about it, particularly telling everyone who disagrees with him that they don't understand the A/C Movement or to open a book. We understand it, I'm sure many of us have read plenty about it other than Tom MacWood's essay. In many ways I grew up around it but Tom MacWood seems to see no merit in that whatsoever. ;) I'm quite sure particularly Paul Cowley who is both a building architect, a golf course architect and who worked for some years in the art form of the "Arts and Crafts" style knows a good deal about it, a good deal more about it than Tom MacWood does. When a guy like Tom MacWood who's probably only plied the Internet and stuck his nose in a few books relating to the subject tells a guy like Paul Cowley he doesn't understand the A/C Movement or its relationship to other art forms, that is when I have to take serious exception to Tom MacWood and some of his drummed up "theories" as well as his approach to this subject and to his defending what he wrote about it.

Is it possible for anyone to prove what were the precise reasons a artistic revolution took place? There are usually many factors that can be identified. Why you are so vehemently opposed to looking to social and aesthetic factors I have no idea.

The description of him as a "positivist" on this subject by another one of our knowledgeable contributors on golf course architecture who has a background in academia is very apropos, in my opinion.

That is your opinion (and the nameless one's opinion)....I disagree, I think the essay is a pretty good one and presents a fairly strong case.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 07:25:12 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #616 on: January 03, 2006, 07:12:12 AM »
"Time, money, the exodus into the countryside (surrounding London), the sandy heathland, the aesthetic attitude at the time, the popularity of outdoor pursuits, the growing popularity of golf, Hutchinson, Country Life…there were many factors that sparked the golden age."

I agree with that---there were many factors that sparked the Golden Age, and a few of them, including some of the factors you just mentioned above, were highlighted in both the literature of the Golden Age and later literature on the history and evolution and the influences on golf course architecture.

So why have you assigned such importance to just one of those factors (the A/C Movement)?

Why have you concluded in your essay that the Golden Age of Golf Architecture should more appropriately be called "Arts and Crafts Golf" (the title of your essay)??

And why have you assigned Horace Hutchinson the label of the "Father" of all golf architecture?

Would you like to change the message, the thesis, the conclusions of your essay at this point?

As you know, I, and a number of others think you should, and if you do I'd be more than happy to drop this subject of your essay which I believe is revisionism and more than a little misleading regarding golf course architecture and the Golden Age.

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #617 on: January 03, 2006, 07:14:30 AM »
I would very much like to do that but in doing so that too will be a challenge to the validity of your essay entitled "Arts and Crafts Golf". The reason I say that is I believe history shows the reasons for the early rudimentary "Dark Ages" golf architecture really was NOT some "Victorian Aesthetic" or some influence of the Industrial Revolution, and that the breakthrough by Park jr in the English Heathlands was not primarily the influence of the "Arts and Crafts" Movment, or of Hutchinson, or of Country Life Magazine. I'm not saying those things may not have been some influence just nowhere near the influence you've been trying to assign to them.

The essay does not claim the A&C movement was the primary influence. Hutchinson, Country Life, the media, mass communication, prevailing aesthetic thought were among the important factors that led to the golden age.

I would also like to see you answer some of my questions about what connection the Astors had to Park, the A/C Movement or any of this. And where was Rhynecliff and which Astor owned it? And I'd like to know why you mentioned J.P Morgan or Drexel. What do they have to do with Park, the A/C Movement or any of this subject?

As I said before, I mentioned Astor, Vanderbilt, Riddell, etc to show you that Park was not some uneducated, inartistic baffoon who could not possilby be effected by prevailing aesthetics. My mistake he stayed at JJ Astor's Ferncliff (which had a golf course by the way).

The reason I brought up Morgan and Drexel was to show the importance of London as a financial and cultural center.


« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 07:15:49 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #618 on: January 03, 2006, 07:23:22 AM »
So why have you assigned such importance to just one of those factors (the A/C Movement)?

Because it was the prevailing aesthetic philosophy and it impacted a wide variety of creative disciplines.

Why have you concluded in your essay that the Golden Age of Golf Architecture should more appropriately be called "Arts and Crafts Golf" (the title of your essay)??

Because IMO golf architecture is an artistic discipline and should be included with the rest of the arts. The period when the golden age began was during the A&C period.

And why have you assigned Horace Hutchinson the label of the "Father" of all golf architecture?

Because he was the single most influencial writer and critic in golf and golf architecture at that critical time.

Would you like to change the message, the thesis, the conclusions of your essay at this point?

I'd change Hutchinson from father to guide.


As you know, I, and a number of others think you should, and if you do I'd be more than happy to drop this subject of your essay which I believe is revisionism and more than a little misleading regarding golf course architecture and the Golden Age.

Come again?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 08:18:55 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #619 on: January 03, 2006, 07:40:18 AM »
Tom MacWood said:

"The aesthetic philosphies of Morris and Ruskin were the prevailing aethetic philosphies of the period and effected the design of wide range of creative endeavors."

Tom MacWood:

That's not even close to the truth. That's not even close to the facts during the Victorian Age and thereafter. That's simply another of your false "premises" that unfortunately some or too many on this website might just blindly accept. They should not accept that premise at all.

The "Arts and Crafts" movement and the aesthetic philosophies of Morris and Rushkin were only A philosophy, only one of a number of aesthetic philosophies during that period. Theirs was by no means the prevailing aesthetic philosophy or even the most significant aesthetic philosophy of that age.

It's both interesting and highly ironic that you mentioned Astor in this discussion. It seems you're trying to pass him off too as some supporter or proponent of the A/C Movement.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Astor was a massive builder on both sides of the Atlantic and a massive and significant restorer in England.

Astor's primary architect, John Loughborough Pearson, was perhaps everything that Morris resisted and revolted against. Pearson was a primary cathedral “restoration” architect who was perhaps one of the main focuses of Morris’s outrage against cathedral "restoration", the very thing you claimed in your essay motivated Morris to create the SPAB (Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings). Pearson also was the architect of Astor’s massive offices at 2 Temple Place in London, one of the most remarkable examples of completely ecclectic and ornate Victorianism imaginable.

Astor's two estate restorations along the Thames of the incredible "Cliveden" as well as the more elaborate restoration of "Hever" had nothing to do with "Arts and Crafts" architecture. If you are trying to assign to the A/C Movement the fact that Astor created and entire "early English village" as a support supplement to Hever, that too is a masive stretch.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 07:49:38 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #620 on: January 03, 2006, 07:58:52 AM »
"As you know, I, and a number of others think you should, and if you do I'd be more than happy to drop this subject of your essay which I believe is revisionism and more than a little misleading regarding golf course architecture and the Golden Age.

Come again?

Tom MacWood:

What is it about that statement you don't understand, other than it does not agree with the conclusions of your essay? Perhaps you are the type of writer or the type of guy who can't seem to comprehend that anyone would or could disagree with your theories. A dangerous mind-set indeed and one I'm attempting to expose on here.  ;)

Every one of you answers (the ones that begin with 'because') in reply #619 are, in my opinion, false premises. They are simply not historically accurate or supportable.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2006, 08:01:00 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #621 on: January 03, 2006, 08:15:56 AM »
Tom MacWood said:

"The aesthetic philosphies of Morris and Ruskin were the prevailing aethetic philosphies of the period and effected the design of wide range of creative endeavors."

Tom MacWood:

That's not even close to the truth. That's not even close to the facts during the Victorian Age and thereafter. That's simply another of your false "premises" that unfortunately some or too many on this website might just blindly accept. They should not accept that premise at all.

Please expound...we'd love to hear what your internet research uncovered.

The "Arts and Crafts" movement and the aesthetic philosophies of Morris and Rushkin were only A philosophy, only one of a number of aesthetic philosophies during that period. Theirs was by no means the prevailing aesthetic philosophy or even the most significant aesthetic philosophy of that age.

It was the prevailing aesthetic at the time.

It's both interesting and highly ironic that you mentioned Astor in this discussion. It seems you're trying to pass him off too as some supporter or proponent of the A/C Movement.

Where did I write that WW Astor was involved with the A&C movement. I believe you were the first to interject his name into this discusion...pages ago.

Astor's primary architect, John Loughborough Pearson, was perhaps everything that Morris resisted and revolted against. Pearson was a primary cathedral “restoration” architect who was perhaps one of the main focuses of Morris’s outrage against cathedral "restoration", the very thing you claimed in your essay motivated Morris to create the SPAB (Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings). Pearson also was the architect of Astor’s massive offices at 2 Temple Place in London, one of the most remarkable examples of completely ecclectic and ornate Victorianism imaginable.

I don't know that much about Pearson, but I believe he specialized in gothic revival. Who were some of the cats responible for the gothic revival?


TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #622 on: January 03, 2006, 08:16:14 AM »
"The reason I brought up Morgan and Drexel was to show the importance of London as a financial and cultural center."

Wrong again Kimosabe:

John Pierpont Morgan lived and worked New York, and not London, and was one of America's primary "financiers". Anthony John Drexel lived and worked in Philadelphia and was one of America's primary "financiers". Litttle known fact---eg A.J. Drexel basically created J. P. Morgan and was the only man in the world Morgan always answered to (when Drexel was alive). Drexel was older than Morgan and was a friend of Morgan's father, Junius Morgan who was a London financier. Drexel initially recreate John Pierpont Morgan as his representative in New York and as a favor to his father as young J.P had become severely depressed. Drexel also understood that Junius Morgan would be a good ally in London.

None of these men would've had a thing to do with the political, social and economic philosophies of a William Morris who was a socialist, and nigh onto a communist. That was the complete antithesis of what those three men who were perhaps the world's biggest capitalists believed in.

What other names of places and names of people do you have to support or supplement your theories, Tom? Those ones won't do at all---not even close. If Park jr was a friend of any of those men, including J.J Astor I can guarantee you support of the A/C movement or it influence was not what they would've been discussing and promoting with Park.

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #623 on: January 03, 2006, 08:29:28 AM »
TE
Re-read what I wrote...are you denying Astor, Morgan, and Drexel spent a great deal of time in London, that they had business interests in London and that London was the financial capital of the world?

If you re-read my essay, you will see I wrote about Morris's politics--his own paradoxes and the fact that many rejected his political ideas. A&C's influence was primarily aesthetic.

You are drifting off.....try to stay on topic.