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T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #525 on: December 29, 2005, 09:25:39 PM »
TE
It was apparent to most that your knowledge of the A&C movement does not go beyond what you read in my essay (accept, you did summer in a English vernacular cottage in Maine)...please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and go educate yourself....your wasting everyone's time and brain power.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 09:29:20 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #526 on: December 29, 2005, 09:27:54 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Artistic disciplines aren't indescriminately interchangeable, which you seem to allude to and promote as a matter of fact.

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #527 on: December 29, 2005, 09:33:14 PM »
Pat
You are right...A&C movement was more a philosophy or an approach than a specific style...it was the aesthetic philosophy that influenced the varying arts and crafts.

TE
I feel fine. Every time we bring the A&C movement on GCA more information is uncovered. I had no idea Roberts was also involved at Huntercombe. I hope that others ignore your example and actually attempt to learn more about the movement on their own. It was a fascinating period of breathtaking creativity.

Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 11:15:38am
"How can it be that you can't recognize that or that you can't recognize sometimes huge DISTINCTIONS between various art forms? How can that be? Are you the type who has so little ability to deduce important distinctions in things, including various art forms, that all you can see is some universal influence and some universal commonality? To me this is both incredible and more than a little maddening, particularly if there is anyone who might take you seriously."

Tom MacWood's response:
 
"This illustrates your lack of understanding....no wonder you are unable to comprehend my premise. After all this time you obviously still have never bothered studying the A&C movement, and its basic ideals that crossed-over diverse disciplines."

Tom MacWood:

At this point, I'd venture to say that I legitimately know more about the Arts and Crafts Movement and the truth about its history and the entire truth about its proponents and leaders than you do.


A house is not a chair...a candlestick is not a garden...a painting is not a broach...a golf course is not a lamp...stained glass is not wallpaper.

If you understood the A&C movement and how it influenced these diverse art forms why would you say I can't recognize the huge DISTINCTIONS between various art forms?

Tom MacWood:

At this point, I'd venture to say that I legitimately know more about the Arts and Crafts Movement and the truth about its history and the entire truth about its proponents and leaders than you do.

But the real point of this subject and these discussion is I know what the real influences were on the "Golden Age of Golf Architecture" and it's best architects, and apparently you don't and it doesn't look much like you ever will.

I look forward to your essay.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 08:44:15 AM by Tom MacWood »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #528 on: December 29, 2005, 10:35:16 PM »
Tom Paul;
"At this point, I'd venture to say that I legitimately know more about the Arts and Crafts Movement and the truth about its history and the entire truth about its proponents and leaders than you do".

...tomp, at this point i would suggest you don't know more, but i think you definately understand more....but, maybe you are right.....and the more i think about it, i'm more correctly right that i'm sure about it ;).
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #529 on: December 29, 2005, 10:38:44 PM »
Paul
Thanks for giving us your view. Could you expound upon your opinion and give us some specifics?

« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 10:39:31 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #530 on: December 29, 2005, 10:47:12 PM »
"TE
It was apparent to most that your knowledge of the A&C movement does not go beyond what you read in my essay (accept, you did summer in a English vernacular cottage in Maine)...please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and go educate yourself....your wasting everyone's time and brain power."

No, Tom, I'm sorry but you're not going to get away with that retort on here any longer. Some may've thought that a year or so ago because of a remark like that on your part but few do any longer. Your essay is most certainly not what I learned and what I know and have known about the Arts and Crafts movement and how I feel about it's influence, or lack of it, on golf course architecture.

I've always known the Arts and Crafts Movement to a large extent, what it was, what it accomplished and who some of it proponents were, what their principles and beliefs were.

I lived in areas and aspects of that movement in America in many ways, and for what it was truly about. I grew up with it and understanding it and what it was and wasn't in the broad sweep of art forms and culture and societies.

I don't know who you are really--I've never met you, but to me you seem to be, and patently so, like some kind of insecure bookworm dreamer trying to make a reputation for yourself, some kind of striver to have others believe you are more than you really are intellectually and as a golf architecture historian. You think you know this stuff and understand what it was and who and what it really influenced by merely sticking your nose in old books, old magazines, old newspapers, in Hurzdan's library and museum now and again  and plying the Internet?

You think you can seriously and credibly respond to people by constantly telling them they don't know this subject, by trying to impress them with what you've read, what you understand, what you've discovered?? You can't do anything of the sort. You can't do any of that----not on this website or with most of the people on here. You act like some kind of didactic discoverer of the truth of things that no one should dare challenge or question. That doesn't work on this website if you haven't noticed. Many of these people on here are far more informed than you think they are and far more informed than you are on many things to do with golf course architecture or even the facts and truth and extent of the Arts and Crafts Movement.

Will I write a rebuttal to your "Arts and Crafts Golf" essay? You bet I will and Ran will post it on here in the "In My Opinion" section.

I've read again about the A/C movement and all its propents and critics and observers. I've plied the Internet for days recently for all things to do with the Arts and Crafts Movement, all its proponents, founders, supporters, it's principles and goals, all those from whence it evolved, all things to do with similar and sympathetic movements and all their proponents, philosophies, goals, principles---you name it.

The Internet is an amazing place for the wealth and extent of its information but one needs to be careful and discriminating in what they find and read and believe on the Internet. The Internet has no real monitor or editor on what's put on it and the evidence of that is the fact that if one searches deep enough on the Internet for information on the Arts and Crafts Movement and the extent of its influence, one finds your essay on the Internet on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com entitled "Arts and Crafts Golf" describing the A/C Movement as the primary and significant influence on the golf course architecture of the Golden Age and Hutchinson as the "Father" of all golf course architecture.

Tom MacWood, that's what did it for me. That kind of information and that kind of extrapolated and theoretical crap I just don't ever want to see passed off as truth, as fact, and as historically accurate on the Interent or any other legitimate information source.

So you bet I'm going to write a rebuttal to your "Arts and Crafts Golf" essay and post it on this site's "In My Opinion" sectoin. The integrity of the history and evolution of golf course architecture deserves that, at least! And you can bet I will never cease questioning you and your revisionist statements about it on this website.  
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 10:57:02 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #531 on: December 29, 2005, 11:03:11 PM »
TE
I would beg to differ that you have ever known the A&C movement. If you did you would not continually ask why the movement was never mentioned or continually point to the huge DISTINCTIONS between various art forms.

May I suggest you look beyond the internet...maybe open a book.

Could you please point to one fact you brought to the table on your last post...like most of your posts it is completely devoid of any facts or historical information. I know you can do better than that.

I look forward to your essay (you've been talking about for a year now).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 11:15:01 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #532 on: December 29, 2005, 11:23:46 PM »
Tom MacWood said;

"A house is not a chair...a candlestick is not a garden...a painting is not a broach...a golf course is not a lamp...stained glass is not wallpaper.

If you understood the A&C movement and how it influenced these diverse art forms why would you say I can't recognize the huge DISTINCTIONS between various art forms?"

Tom MacWood:

Did I ever say a house was a chair, a candlestick was a garden, a painting was a broach, stained glasss was wallpaper or a golf course was a lamp?? ;)

All, I ever said, is the Arts and Crafts movement basically effected building architecture, the art form of decorative arts, and to an extent the art form of landscsape design. Even the Societies and proponents of the A&C Movement don't claim it effected much more than that. So, one should ask---why are you? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way.  ;)

I guess one both could and should ask you, at this point, Tom MacWood, why no one before you in these last 100 or so years has ever claimed or even noticed, even remotely, that the Arts and Crafts Movement had any influence on golf course architecture, and certainly significantly so?

By the way, that too is a serious question, and one that I'm quite sure you will never be able to answer or even legitimatley acknowledge. The reasons why become more obvious with each of your posts. ;)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 11:28:10 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #533 on: December 29, 2005, 11:35:42 PM »
TE
Do the philosophies and principles of the A&C movement apply to golf architecture?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #534 on: December 29, 2005, 11:44:55 PM »
Paul
Thanks for giving us your view. Could you expound upon your opinion and give us some specifics?


TomM...I've been hesitant, but you have asked, so....

I'm sure a person with your knowledge of things A&C is familiar with a religious lifestyle and planned communal communities that generally preceded the A & C era....the 'Shakers', with Ann Lee the founder.

Well, you probably also know then that their sect has not died out as of yet ...there are, I think, at least three still practicing at their farm in Sabbeth Day Lake, Maine...almost 200 years after the sects founding.........I mention this only because I myself carry a similar distinction...I am the last remaining Arts & Crafts practitioner on this or any side of the Atlantic.....and as such my voice has volume and my body has weight.

email me at PC/last/AC.net
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 08:44:56 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #535 on: December 29, 2005, 11:45:54 PM »
"May I suggest you look beyond the internet...maybe open a book."

Why you arrogant little ass. May I suggest you at some point recognize the hilarity of your insecure intellectual pomposity?  ;)

"Could you please point to one fact you brought to the table on your last post...like most of your posts it is completely devoid of any facts or historical information. I know you can do better than that."

Facts? My facts are those of the collected literature of golf course architecture. Your facts consist of mainly extraneous information such as Hutchinson went to some school that had a headmaster who knew someone whose path once crossed with someone who knew John Ruskin or William Morris or some other piece of total meaninglessness. Facts that you produce, and which you produce frequently that have little to nothing to do with the subject at hand are not relevent facts. Clearly you don't seem to be aware of that while the rest of us just shake our heads in amazement?

But just carry on down your yellow brick road, Tom MacWood. At this point, it's become amusing!

"I look forward to your essay (you've been talking about for a year now)."

Good! I think I've been talking about it for about a month now but who ever said you weren't a blatant exaggerator?  

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #536 on: December 29, 2005, 11:51:13 PM »
Paul
I had a feeling you would avoid a serious answer.

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #537 on: December 29, 2005, 11:58:34 PM »
Why you arrogant little ass. May I suggest you at some point recognize the hilarity of your insecure intellectual pomposity?

It was only a suggestion...no need for profanity.

Facts? My facts are those of the collected literature of golf course architecture. Your facts consist of mainly extraneous information such as Hutchinson went to some school that had a headmaster who knew someone whose path once crossed with someone who knew John Ruskin or William Morris or some other piece of total meaninglessness. Facts that you produce, and which you produce frequently that have little to nothing to do with the subject at hand are not relevent facts. Clearly you don't seem to be aware of that while the rest of us just shake our heads in amazement?

I look forward to your essay based upon the collective literature of golf architecture.

But just carry on down your yellow brick road, Tom MacWood. At this point, it's become amusing!

"I look forward to your essay (you've been talking about for a year now)."

Good! I think I've been talking about it for about a month now but who ever said you weren't a blatant exaggerator?  

TE
If I'm not mistaken you e-mailed me a year ago asking if it was OK if you presented a counterpoint to my A&C essay (after you discovered I was writing an essay on Crump). I said feel free.

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #538 on: December 30, 2005, 12:02:37 AM »
Paul Cowley, you absolutely kill me, you know you do. I love you man, you've got a mind and an imagination that's otherworldly---woo, woo, woo!

That's why you are good for golf course architecture, maybe the best. If anyone can truly think outside the box, it's you. It's just hard to see a client or anything else slow you down. I haven't talked to you in a while but what in the hell is the story on the latest routing? Who asked for that? What are we trying to do now, see if we can create the most extreme routing in "parallelism" in the history of golf course architecture that's any good? I'm sure something can be made of it with your imagination and my "playability" conceptualizing but what's going on here----whose trying to put the pressure on us to do that?   ;)

If that's what those birds want, then, hey, who are we to tell them they shouldn't have it? In that case let's give it to them and just go north, eat some apples, maybe drink some cider and maybe get high and make something really cool. What say you, you magnificent crazy man?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 12:09:52 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #539 on: December 30, 2005, 12:04:55 AM »
TomM...that was serious except for the email address and the exact number of us still full time..........sleep well :)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 12:06:36 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #540 on: December 30, 2005, 12:13:43 AM »
"It was only a suggestion...no need for profanity."

Tom MacWood:

Thank God for humor.Thank you.

Hey, look amigo, I'm sorry, I totally forgot that 'insecure, arrogant pomposity' was profanity.

Begging your pardon!

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #541 on: December 30, 2005, 12:24:24 AM »
"TE
If I'm not mistaken you e-mailed me a year ago asking if it was OK if you presented a counterpoint to my A&C essay (after you discovered I was writing an essay on Crump). I said feel free."

Tom:

Oh, sorry, who am I to ever imagine that YOU might be mistaken about anything?  

Did I really email you a year ago asking you if that was OK? Maybe I did do that but I'm sure you can understand that I'm quite sensitive when someone outside this area tries to expose the "Philadelphia Conspiracy" to glorify Crump and Wilson at all cost to minimize Colt and Macdonald and Whigam?  ;)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 08:11:38 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #542 on: December 30, 2005, 12:25:55 AM »
yo, Brilliant One [ you be so good] :)....I am out of wine...nitenite.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #543 on: December 30, 2005, 12:32:29 AM »
"yo, Brilliant One [ you be so good] ....I am out of wine...nitenite."

Me too. Don't worry about it. We'll just hit the mattresses and come out of there with all the guns blazing and put a parallel "design up" together that will blow them away. Who's paying the liability insurance premiums, you or me?

Oh, forgetaboutit, I don't care about trivialities like that!

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #544 on: December 30, 2005, 06:17:06 AM »
TomM...I've been hesitant, but you have asked, so....

I'm sure a person with your knowledge of things A&C is familiar with a religious lifestyle and planned communal community that generally preceded the A & C era....the 'Shakers', with Ann Lee the founder.


Paul
I know next to nothing about the Shakers, you won't find them in any of the A&C literature. Its a little concerning that you know so much about them...Ann Lee? What I do know is that they shook and they were opposed to sex, which is why they didn't last long. Are you the product of two incompetent Shakers?

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #545 on: December 30, 2005, 06:56:36 AM »
Did I ever say a house was a chair, a candlestick was a garden, a painting was a broach, stained glasss was wallpaper or a golf course was a lamp?? ;)

All, I ever said, is the Arts and Crafts movement basically effected building architecture, the art form of decorative arts, and to an extent the art form of landscsape design. Even the Societies and proponents of the A&C Movement don't claim it effected much more than that. So, one should ask---why are you? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way.  

I guess one both could and should ask you, at this point, Tom MacWood, why no one before you in these last 100 or so years has ever claimed or even noticed, even remotely, that the Arts and Crafts Movement had any influence on golf course architecture, and certainly significantly so?


TE
Our understanding of the A&C movement is constantly evolving. It has only been seriously studied by art historians in the last decade or two. They are just beginning to discover its influence in outlying countries (Japan and Russia) and other more obscure art forms (photography). Good luck trying to find golf architecture in any book dealing with the arts...its not recognized by the art world. It is not surprising to me GCA would not be found in the A&C literature.

Do the philosophies and principles of the A&C movement apply to golf architecture?

Speeking of outlying areas, I recently learned that Adelaide (Australia) has one of the largest collection of objects from Morris & Co outside the UK. Evidently there were a couple of prominent families who were great collectors and admirers of A&C objects. The Barr Smith family and the Rymill family.

Barr Smith was reported to be the richest man in Oz, at least one of the richest. The Rymills were not quite in Barr Smith's class, but they were well to do. The Rymill home 'The Firs' is a very interesting bit of architecture. Herbert Rymill was one Australia's first important golf architects (in the teens and twenties) and a protege of Herbert Fowler. He designed Royal Adelaide, Kooyonga, Grange and a few others.

This has been today's A&C moment.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 08:45:56 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #546 on: December 30, 2005, 08:22:31 AM »
"TE
Perhaps these two messages will jar your memory:"

Gosh, Tom, thanks for jarring my memory. No, I didn't forget writing that. I guess you don't know what sarcasm means either, huh? Well, no problem, I just added a smiley to post #542 so you can figure it out.

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #547 on: December 30, 2005, 08:56:16 AM »
"TE
Our understanding of the A&C movement is constantly evolving. It has only been seriously studied by art historians in the last decade or two."

Tom:

When you learn something it really is touching how you seem to think you are discovering it for the rest of the world. It's very touching and more than a little scary for someone who refers to himself, even in passing, as an historian. In my opinion, you need to develop a whole lot more respect for most all the historians on the Golden Age of golf architecture, as well as those who've dealt with the entire history and evolution of golf course architecture.

"Do the philosophies and principles of the A&C movement apply to golf architecture?"

Yes, I think they do, to a degree, and particulrly in one aspect.

I very much believe that some golf architecture, particularly the likes of the best of the Golden Age that tended very diligently to applications of "naturalism" in what was made, shared a common philosophy and a common principle with the A/C Movement. I've always felt that it was probably Alister Mackenzie who took that philosophy and principle in golf architecture as far as it was ever taken and he did it as well as it was ever done, in my opinion, although others certainly came close.

What influenced him to do that, however, was explained by him in a good amount of detail and it did not have to do with the A/C Movement at all but rather a process he noticed during the Boer War to do with military trenches and camouflage that he developed and applied to golf architecture. Alister MacKenzie, as I'm sure you know, also was a huge proponent of the architectural model of the old course.

And I think most of the best of the Golden Age, Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie, Alison, Macdonald, Crump, Wilson, Tillinghast, Hunter, Behr, Thomas etc all diligently followed the model of TOC and the Scottish linksland, as well as some of the early Heathland courses as a model for natualism.

I also think a number of the Golden Age architects studied and used various landscape design philosophies and principles from some of the best of the early English landscape designers such as Brown, Puckler and Repton and these men they mentioned as influencing some of their golf architecture principles.

But none of those influences were inspired by the A/C Movement. The linksland and TOC had been there for centuries, the Boers are at the far end of another continent from GB and the creation of the A/C Movement and the early English "naturalist" landscape designers mentioned as influencing the philosophies and principles of the best of the Golden Age architects were dead and gone anywhere from 50 to over 100 years before the A/C Movement even began.

All of this I've said to you over and over again, so I'm not sure why you continue to ask? Was there something you didn't understand? I have never seen a single good reaaon to alter my opinion on those things and those influences on the golf architecture of the Golden Age and it also jibes with most of which has already been written. I find very little fault or hitorical inaccuracy with most of the best of golf architecture's historians in that vein.


« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 09:01:35 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #548 on: December 30, 2005, 09:10:39 AM »
"This has been today's A&C moment."

It's very interesting how you keep saying that recently, Tom MacWood. Perhaps it would've been a good thing if you'd had a whole lot more of those "A/C MOMENTS" before you wrote that "Arts and Crafts Golf" essay, and not afterwards!  ;)

I believe it also would've been a very good thing if you'd taken the time to understand better what was going on  BEFORE the A/C Movement even began. Had you done that you probably wouldn't have had to start a thread on here in the last few weeks asking what influences early English landscape architecture had on the golf architecture of the Golden Age.  ;)

But you're right, one does keep learning. Let's hope you can.

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #549 on: December 30, 2005, 09:18:13 AM »
"Barr Smith was reported to be the richest man in Oz, at least one of the richest. The Rymills were not quite in Barr Smith's class, but they were well to do."

Uh, Tom, since you now seemed to have moved on to some other point about the A/C movement and rich and powerful people of its era I took note of what you said yesterday about Willie Park jr hanging around with the likes of Vanderbilt and Astor. Some say William Waldorf Astor was the richest man in the world at that time. Would you like to talk about that, or do you think perhaps you should steer clear of it?  ;)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 10:23:08 AM by TEPaul »

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