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munson

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2004, 03:50:13 PM »
Is this a new phenomenon, impugning GCA participants? It seems to this newbie that a lot of ink has been used in the last two weeks questioning civility and integrity.

Can't we just play nice with the other kids?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2004, 04:00:21 PM »
Quote from: Matt_Ward on Today at 02:31:57pm
I am not a golf whore who simply wants the tag as "America's guest."  
 
Matt Ward=Pretty Woman


I don't think so! :o
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

dfrey

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2004, 04:09:49 PM »
I have not played Wintonbury.....but from what I have heard, it is the best municipal course in CT.  The new high-end public courses are not cheap.......Great River is expensive, Richter Park is hard for non-residents to get on.  I think Wintonbury probably equates to Crestbrook in Watertown.  I hope to play it in the spring.......

Matt_Ward

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2004, 04:13:24 PM »
slapper:

You nailed me big time -- how knew I was really Julie Roberts! ;D

I have to hand it to you -- you're the Columbo of GCA! The detective powers you possess astound me. How bout you replace David Caruso on Miami CSI?

Forget the Amazin Kreskin -- there's the Amazin Slapper! ;D

See ya tomorrow partner ... ;D

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2004, 04:18:04 PM »
Matt:

   My only words to you:

"You're Fired."

the Donald

cya tomorrow and we can debate whether anything I touch is the "Best in The World."
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 04:19:11 PM by slapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2004, 04:21:48 PM »
Mike,

It went a little further than a sleeve of Pro-V1's and a free lunch. And I'm sorry, but I know of many courses that do not pick up lunch, golf balls, hotel rooms (oh yes...that's going on too) and other expenses.

But since this is part of the process on Capital Hill and Kiawah Island, what do you offer in the way of rater perks? This will be good for other courses to know what they need to do to keep up.

Geoff

Geeze, Geoff, hit a nerve, did we?  While there's been one or two raters who seemed to be in it for the freebes, of the hundreds of Golf Magazine, Golfweek and Golf Digest panelists we've had through Kiawah since I've been here (1999), I would say its been less than 1/2 of one percent.  The vast, vast majority take their task very seriously.  We generally abide by the Golf Digest rules that allows for comped green fees.  We also generally throw in a sleeve of balls and maybe a hat.  We also sometimes throw in lunch, not so much for them as it is for me.  I got two kids heading to private schools in a year (because SC public schools suck) so lunch in the company tab comes in handy... ;)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2004, 09:37:03 AM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2004, 04:28:46 PM »

...why do you think people want to be "raters"?  Why?  I don't get it.  If it's not for the free golf, free food, the status symbol you can throw around, or some other hidden agenda, then what is it?  Like I said,  in my opinion there is no answer other than to feel self-important.  Maybe it validates oneself as an important piece of the game.  I don't know what reason it is, but I can tell you that it's not for "the good of the game".


Maybe it just that they like great golf course architecture... ???

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2004, 04:39:55 PM »
Jeff Forston,

Some raters have found that they can parlay their vast experiences from playing these courses into side businesses like golf course design/restoration, consulting, and books.  

This has been great though, it's like watching the lions eat their young!  There may be no one standing after this one.  

It reminds of listening to Bill Clinton tells us about how his administration was going to be the most ethical adminstration ever.  There more you hear some one tell you how honest, ethical, and unswayed by gifts they are the more it makes you wonder.  

In fact this is a lot like listening to politicians and lawyers.  The last thing you can expect out of this is Truth.  May the slaughter continue!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2004, 04:44:29 PM »
Why would someone become a rater?

Jeff...the answer is simple.  

Because I was asked.

I don't know if you are a college football fan, but let's say you LOVED watching college football, had spent a LOT of time watching different teams and going to games and one day you were asked to be part of the panel of sportswriters who (used to before the computer rankings) were asked to get personally involved in watching football, and then got a vote on who the best teams were.  Would you refuse?  

And Jeff...beyond that, why don't you tell us all what are the MAJOR miscues on the published lists....where have we really F*'d up?  

If you agree with 80% of what's on there, put the rest down to difference of opinion and tastes.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 04:46:20 PM by Mike_Cirba »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2004, 04:45:43 PM »
John_Conley said...

"Free balls and free wine??? GMAFB."

Fortsonator:

I hope you're effin' kidding, because if you can't figure that out...

Matt_Ward

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2004, 04:49:14 PM »
Jeff:

For starters - how bout taking some responsibility for your broad brush statement that 99.99% of the raters are in it just for the perks. I can't speak for anyone but myself and that is simply major league BS.

Jeff -- First and foremost I play golf because I love the game. If you don't believe that I could care less. I enjoy ratings personally and have been doing them since the first time I played two really good courses as a youngster (12 years-old) and debated their merits / lack thereof with my late Dad. The nature of sports is to compare and contrast things. Dimaggio versus Williams / Chamberlain versus Russell, etc, etc. Magazines do this because of the increased readership they get from it. People want to see how things of all type compare and contrast. Nothing wrong with that in my mind.

I'm a rater because I want to provide fellow golfers who want to sample some of the best designed courses that exist. My fascination with courses that are available to the masses is always my primary interest since I started playing on munis. When I was young I always wanted to learn more and more about those golf courses -- many of which were never on TV. When people say the finest courses in Ireland or GB I would always wonder the reasons why they would rate ahead of others. If I can learn something from the opinions of informed people so much the better for me and in scheduling my future rounds when I do play.

Don't you rate / assess where you eat? What you eat? What movies you will or won't see? The type of car you drive? Hello -- Jeff ... people make these personal ratings in their lives everyday.

When you say do I think ratings make a difference? In some ways they do because you now see the focus on removing plenty of timber that should not have been placed on the course. This is just one thing that I believe raters have advocated and I believe the elimination of all the lumber has made for better golf courses -- witness the renewed interest in a marvelous course like Fenway in Scarsdale, NY, to name just one.

I don't doubt that ratings can cause courses to change their courses in other ways that are not good but if courses simply make changes to please others and not follow the character of the course they have that mistake rests with them. Witness the continued changes at Augusta National.

Jeff -- if you think some club offering me a free round is going to make a difference with me you don't know me. I don't need someone handing such a thing and EXPECTING a quid pro quo. I don't operate that way -- end of story. If you don't believe me I could care less. I'm more than happy to pay the going rate.

By the way if you don't care for what people say about ratings then do the smart thing I do with annoying radio programs -- flip to a different station.

Jeff -- speak about credibility -- I believe you're a PGA pro -- have you ever gotten free golf? How about your comrades? Help me out with something -- is the pot calling the kettle black but having amnesia when it applies the other way around?

Jeff -- one last thing -- my opinion on golf courses doesn't mean anything except to me. If you don't care what I think -- that's your prerogative. Guess what -- it's the same way I can feel about your generalized bomb shells that seek to insult all people with such a broad and mean spirited brush.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #61 on: February 27, 2004, 04:51:17 PM »
Matt:

" my opinion on golf courses doesn't mean anything except to me"


Gotta remind you of that one in the future ;D ;D ;D
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #62 on: February 27, 2004, 04:53:04 PM »
What good does rating courses do for the game?  Do you really think you have made a difference in anyone's life by rating a golf course?

Jeff,

I am not a rater and depending on our last 80 acres, the outcome pending a divorce court of the farms family, I may actually get to be a developer one of these years.

I don't think you recognize the value of ratings out in the non-Golf Club Atlas world. People like this stuff beyond the treehouse here.

As you may remember, I run a charity outing near you. This year we are having the 5th anniversary outing, and we are hoping to have it at The Creek Club (should be finalized next week) which is currently ranked #70 on Golfweek's list. Well guess what, that ranking get used in our marketing material, we will charge more money for the outing partially because of that rating(s), and more money gets raised and goes to SLCD, a school for Autistic children in Glen Cove.

There are many other examples why they do matter. National is number 1 for me, but my guess is they probably won't use my name on the marketing materials out there. ;)

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #63 on: February 27, 2004, 04:56:17 PM »
Wow, this has to be on of the most heated debates on GCA in recent months, and at such a timely fashion as so many of us are meeting tommorow!

I think the answers Mike Cirba and Shivas gave are a couple of the most honest  that I have read.  If I was asked to be part of the NCAA selection committee for college basketball, would I do it? In a heartbeat!  And if you get the chance to play some of the great courses in America, which are usually so very tough to get on if your not part of the "social circles" of that club, hell yeh you should play the course, and if thats selfish, so what!

Jeff,
I think you are in a unique position as one of the few PGA pro's (that I know of) that post on this site often.  I don't know which club you are currently at so I don't know if you get a lot of raters, and if so what your policy is with them.  But I also know one of the perks of being a PGA pro is normally being able to play most courses, private and public, almost always comped.  I don't have a problem with that because most it often times works both ways, and most pro's, especailly asst. pros are vastly underpayed.  By a PGA pro accepting a free round of golf you are not a rater so it shouldn't really matter, but if a rater can't differentiate a golf coure's attributes on the course alone and not on wether or not he had to pay or what he was given, then he shouldn't be a rater anyway.

Jason Mandel
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 05:00:45 PM by jmandel »
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Mike_Cirba

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #64 on: February 27, 2004, 05:02:54 PM »
Dan Grossman;

Exactly right.  

Most times if I already have access (public course or private invite) I will not even mention that I'm a rater, and will gladly pay full freight.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 05:03:18 PM by Mike_Cirba »

DMoriarty

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #65 on: February 27, 2004, 05:18:19 PM »
The problem isn't this treatment, but rather whether or not it affects the process.

In my estimation - from my experiences - knowing my voting pattern - AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE - the magazine and its people have taken measures to protect this from happening.  Are they failsafe?  I doubt it.

If you've done every thing you can to improve something and it is still imperfect - think BCS, these magazine lists, NBA officiating - perhaps there's nothing more that can be done.

I ask you, what can be done to improve the process?

John, I dont doubt that you, Mike Cirba, and even my friend Shivas would ever knowingly be swayed by perks.   Same goes for most the other raters I've met from all the panels.  

But contrary to your post, that is not the real issue.   The real issue is two-fold:  

1)  As you said above, there is no way of knowing whether a rater intentionally or unintentionally allows themselves to be swayed by perks.  So, as long as raters get perks, the process will remain under a cloud of suspicion.  

2)  Because of number 1) above, it is the conflict of interest and not any actual impropriety which must be scrutinized.  This is true in almost any conflict situation.   In other words, it doesnt matter whether I believe you or not or whether you intentionally were swayed, the conflict of interest still exists when raters accept perks.

Like it or not there appear to be a number of conflicts of interest in GW's system, both at the rater level, and higher up.  And I dont see any safeguards set up to make sure they are not a problem.  

What can be done to improve the process?

1) Do not let raters take freebies, whether it be green fees, free equipment, free lunch, free caddies, free hotels and trips, or free anything else.   Get rid of raters who cannot abide by this.  I am sure there are plenty of potential raters who would still be willing to rate.  

2) Insulate the rating process from those with ties to golf courses.  In other words, let Brad Klein decide whether he is a golf course consultant or head golf course rater, but dont allow him to try to be both (Yes, I'd take it further than Geoff.   I cant see how I or anyone else can respect the integrity of a rating system when its head honcho is competing for business with those he is rating.  And this is true whether or not his courses are eligible.)

3) Make raters rate anonomously.  Why does a course have to about a rater is coming, unless it is to give the course an opportunity to provide special treatment to the rater?  Prohibit raters from using their status as raters to gain access to courses.  If raters from both GW and GD were creative enough to see Friar's Head, then I am sure they can manage to get access almost anywhere, without flashing their credentials.  

4)  Quit holding raters gatherings at courses which have much to gain from the ratings process.   I havent gone back through the lists, but I am guessing that courses which have hosted raters' meetings have done pretty will in the ratings-- especially those courses which were trying to break into the ratings.    
      Or, at the very least, if a meeting is necessary.  Try to hold the meetings in locations which dont get much rater play.  I find it hard to imagine that not enough raters get to Monterey Penninsula or the Big Island.

These are just some of what could and should be done.  

Before you all line up again to vouch for your own integrity, please notice that I am attacking the system, not you.  Any system which puts you in a position where you have to vouch for your own integrity is suspect in my eyes.  
___________

Shivas, no need to defend yourself.  Because you are familiar with these situations, you know that it often the existence of an appearance of potential conflict which matters, and not the actual conflict itself.   That was my point in noting Brad recently made you a rater.

Surely you recognize the apparent conflicts.  

And by the way,  if perks didnt work to sway views, why do courses think it economically rational to keep doling them out?  Sort of like asking why do lobbyists exist if no politicians are for sale . . . .

DMoriarty

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2004, 05:23:34 PM »
Dan and Mike,  

Terrific, then the two of you wouldnt mind if the policy is changed for public access courses.  Why not lobby your organization to get rid of this cloud over the process?

As far as access to private courses, that is often a very valuable thing-- much more valuable than green fees.   It too is a lucrative perk.  Isnt it plausible that in some raters minds, they are so excited to get onto a hard to access course, that this might somehow boost their opinion of the course?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 05:39:40 PM by DMoriarty »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2004, 05:30:41 PM »
What's the over and under number of pages this will go?  I guess about 8... ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #68 on: February 27, 2004, 05:35:51 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I know that it will be hard for you to believe, but I agree with everything you said in your original response.  On paying green fees, I am not quite as magnanimous as you, but have done so on many occasions.  Surprisingly enough, the only ballot that I regret was on a course where it cost me well over $400 to play, and I may have allowed the history and aura of the place influence my judgement (as much as a point too high in hindsight).

Observations/comments:

Some of you have jumped the proverbial shark.  Why do I think that there are some deeper issues involved here than golf and golf architecture?

What makes the rankings so important?  Who claims that they are gospel?  Do any of the magazines offer guanrantees and warranties?

I liked Southern Highlands very much.  It is a top 100 modern in my book, though toward the bottom of the list.  By the way, I missed out on the free wine, proVs, food, and lodging
(?).  In fact, with caddy fees, sun screen, and refreshments, I ended up spending much more than I would had I played a course in my backyard at a full fee.

I also liked SouthShore, Cascata, and Shadow Creek- all top 100 courses in my estimation.  Las Vegas is now a fabulous golf destination.

As has been discussed on this site, Black Mesa was well received by the group that went out there this past fall.  I liked the course a lot, but did not come away believing that it was a top 100.  With some grow-in and maturity, I may change my mind in the future.  In comparison, I thought that Paa-Ko Ridge was a better course, though perhaps not as high as it is currently rated by GW.

The comment about "America's Guest" is perplexing.  Rather than the intended negative, I would take it as a high compliment.  Being good company and a gracious, worthy recipient of other people's kindness are far better attributes than being rude, crude, cynical, and an all-around negative blok (not that any of you here are that way).  If Huckster wants to assign his title to me, I happily accept.

I do believe that there might be something wrong with Golfweek.  I've been a subscriber for many years and still have not received my ranking issue.  Could there be an east coast bias?

Mike Hendren-  allow me just this one exception!  ;)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 05:49:43 PM by Lou_Duran »

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2004, 06:02:54 PM »
While having an outing at a Top 100 course such as The Creek Club, and having the ability to charge more for your outing, which truly is good, lets not also forget who's making out by having their club ranked in the Top 100, no doubt there is probably a correlation to prices of outings at courses to their ranking.  
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Mashie1

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2004, 06:15:27 PM »
Now I understand why there is always such an argument about the ratings in magazines.  Almost all of you are raters!!!  This has really been eye opening.

And, now I see why so many architects avoid this site like the plague.

Who gives a rat's patootie about ratings?

Have "fun" y'all.

8)

Top100Guru

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2004, 06:24:10 PM »
What Happened to Doak's Apache Strongold?

Debued 2 years ago at # 56.....Now It's Gone???????

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2004, 06:24:46 PM »
Jeff Fortson:

I'm curious to hear why you may think I am a GW rater. I questioned you on this several months ago when you went off the deep end, but never got a response. Here is my profile for you to analyze. Let me know if you need my height, weight, and cholesterol level  :)

- I'm a PGA Professional, so like you, there is no financial benefit to free golf.
- I don't gain any better access than I already had.
- In the course of my travels, I already seek out notable courses wherever I go.
- As a teenager, I enjoyed the "ranking" issues of magazines and looked forward to their publication. This is what started my interest in golf course architecture.
- Because I am somewhat obligated to visit a handful of out of the way course every year, I now incur travel expenses that I would not have otherwise.
- I've never been given free lunch, balls, caddie fees, or souvenirs, with one or two exceptions where I had lunch with the A-1 or A-4 that I may have played with and he picked up the tab.

Given this information, I'd like to finally know why it is that I chose to become a rater??? It seems that most of us are being lumped into a pretty big bucket, and I'd like to know to which one I belong.

Regards,

Doug Sobieski

P.S. At 99.9%, if GD had 700 raters (just a guess), GW has 200, and GD has 100, that means that according to you there is one person that doesn't do it for the perks that come with it.

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2004, 07:03:38 PM »
You know, I can remember a time at GolfClubAtlas when the most heated threads come ranking time were about which courses were underrated or overrated, and not about which panelists were corrupt or had conflicts of interest. Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Cheers,
Darren

Mike_Cirba

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2004, 07:58:25 PM »
Ok, I admit it..I'm fessin' up...

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!  

I'm in this for fame and riches!!!  YAHOO!   ;D

Sheesh guys...

Long before I was asked to become a Golfweek rater, my hobby was playing different golf courses.  I had played over 500 of them, in fact.  I bought all the books, saved a scorecard from every course I ever played, and just ate and drank the stuff.  I researched the architectural history of every course, private or public, in a five-state area and sent those results to Cornish & Whitten hoping they might find it of value for a future copy of "The Architects of Golf".    

The great majority of the courses I played in my life were public tracks of varying degrees of worth, from 2,200 yard nine-holers on abandoned farms to the latest CCFAD opening in Maryland, or Delaware, or PA, or NJ.  I've played some of the goddamn worst excuses for golf courses you guys have ever seen and I've enjoyed every last one of them!  

I've driven four hours in heavy traffic each way out to the end of Long Island, not to play Shinnecock or National, but because I heard Montauk Downs was a pretty good track.  I drove 3 each way to play what's left of Timber Point and search for the bones of Charles Alison.  I played at death trap courses in the slums of Newark because the muni there had an interesting architectural pedigree.

Along the way, I met some people and even began to find kindred spirits on some discussion groups online.  It was fun and when work or personal business would take me on the road I even met many of you in person, and we'd play golf.

So, when I was asked through friends to participate in the Golfweek rating process, I viewed it as merely the continuation of something I was doing anyway, simply for fun.

I had hoped that it would continue to be fun, and it has been.  The VAST majority of people rating that I've met have been serious, well-intentioned fellows and ladies who I don't always agree with but who always have a thoughtful reason for their views.

However, feeling compelled to defend one's integrity online is not what I call fun.  This is personal BS and I'm not going to entertain it any longer.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 09:19:12 PM by Mike_Cirba »

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