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TEPaul

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2003, 01:29:13 PM »
Tim Weiman said;

"It seems like Matt Ward envisions a game whereby skill and skill alone will the outcome. That's never going to happen. Random bounces will always be "dominant" - to use Matt's term."

This remark on this thread and subject of "Fair & Unfair?" in golf and architecture and how far the concept of it should be taken is a great lead-in to try to explain Max Behr's philosophy on the necessary part of what he called "Nature" (randomness, unpredictability, even apparent inequity) in golf and architecture, since inherently that has a lot to do with the subject of "fairness or unfairness" in golf.

To distill Behr down even further on this particular subject and to perhaps shed some more light on what Behr meant with his distinction between golf the "sport" and golf the "game", it should be mentioned that one of the clearest distinctions he drew on the subject of "sport" vs "game" by way of analogy was with a comparision of golf to tennis in the context of time and space.

Behr makes the point that as tennis involves two or more opponents vying for a common ball, something that golf does not do, then inherently they are vastly different but he also makes the point that a tennis court is necessarily a playing field on which the dimensions must be both exact and standardized. The reasons for that in the context of time are obvious but the reasons for that in the context of space is merely to create a playing field that’s as efficient as possible to basically isolate and highlight the physical skill of the player! This obviously includes the player coming as close to that OB line as possible with his shots so as to make the retrieval of the ball more difficult by his opponent. But since a tennis court is exact and standardized in its dimensions for this particular purpose, Behr, correctly, views the playing field of tennis as completely man-made and the entire dimension and construction of a tennis court as man-concocted which is one of his definitions of a "game" (completely man-made, apart from any necessary inclusion or preservation of Nature's part in the contest).

Golf, on the other hand, is a recreation whose playing fields are in no way as exact or standardized and further should not be, as golf depends on its playing on the somewhat unadorned and somewhat unaltered landscape of Nature itself for much of the essence and challenge of it.

Behr believed that's the way golf began and the way it evolved and that the essence of Nature in its random unadorned form should be preserved to maintain the spirit and essence of what a "sport" is about which anyone knows is vying or recreating with something---a fish, a bird, a horse or even a golf ball on the landscape of Nature as the partial challenger!

This is part of Behr's distinction between golf the "sport" vs golf the "game", the latter which he did not want to see obtrude into the "sport" by becoming highly defined in dimenson and man-made in look (he believed it was necessary that an architect should strive to make whatever he created at least look like Nature). Golf course architecture that gave golfers little choice and no real requirement for thought by being designed so as the golfer could clearly see he must hit the ball right down the middle (the difference between good (fairway) and evil (hazards) or be penalized was not particularly thought provoking (as a sport involving Nature) or ultimately enjoyable because of it.

But the most startling thing of all and one I recognize may be completely resisted on here and elsewhere is Behr apparently believed that golf and architecture should never be designed in such a way as to attempt to ISOLATE physical skill for the purposes of completely HIGHLIGHTING them alone--as does a game such as tennis--which again is completely man-concocted and man-made as to the nature and dimension of its standardized playing field!

Again, apparently in his opinion, golf and architecture, through over obtruding rules, highly dimensionally defined design, any form of good or evil moralizing regarding the features of the recreation of golf should be guarded against!

They should be guarded against and those who valued the essence of the recreation of golf the "sport" should strive to preserve that other opponent--"Nature" (or at least the percepiton of it)! Nature, whose very randomness and unpredictability never offered any man the kind of "fairness" or equity or reward for raw physical skill the way some man-concocted game that was merely designed to isolate and highlight physical skill felt it must! Nature never did that simply because occasionally even the best executed shots were subject to unfairness and luck within the randomness of Nature! Behr believed even the most physically adept sportsman accepted that and accepted it well as a given! Behr also believed that "thought" should be maintained even over raw physical skill in the sport of golf. I guess, in a sense this isn’t probably much different than the old ballad; “You take the high road and I’ll take the low road and I’ll be in Scotland before Ye!”

Behr didn't want to see rules abolished or architecture or man-made design abolished he simply felt that in the application of those things Nature's necessary part of the balance SHOULD BE PRESERVED within the recreation of golf. The very presence and maintenance of Nature in golf frankly made it a "sport" as distinct from a completely man-concocted "game", in his opinion.

And all this he explored only because he felt it would be more pleasurable, gratifying and interesting for any golfer as he played golf.

There is one last point I believe that Behr implied because he didn't specifically mention it per se. I'm not sure even Geoff Shackelford agrees with my feeling about this.

I believe that when Behr wrote these essays always interlacing the theme of Natural golf architecture and Nature's necessary part in the balance as the essence of golf, what he was also consciously doing is making a fascinating comparison between man's fundamental relationship to Man VERSUS Man's fundamental relationship to Nature itself.

I believe Behr felt man always strove to define and control and dominate most anything including not just other men but Nature as well! Behr obviously felt that man, the golfer, felt more content and comfortable, perhaps resigned somehow in a sporting sense vying against Nature, an opponent he understood, even if subliminally, was larger than himself —an opponent that was more powerful and more indominable than Man. This is apparently why he felt the golfer was apt to face less critically an obstacle he perceived to be put before him by Nature than an obstacle he perceived to be put before him by another man (architect). This is why he proposed that architects should utilize Nature and what they made should be made to look like Nature to the golfer. That, and the fact he believed that if an architect understood the forces of Nature (wind and water) he would be able to create man-made architecture that would last longer. These two ideas formed the basis of what he referred to as “Permanent Architecture”.

Was Behr right? It’s hard to say isn’t it? It’s safe to say not many really listened to him. Should they have listened better? I think so. We should listen better to him now because in some real ways we can see, 75+ years later, that many of the things he feared have happened. Golf courses were severely changed in the ensuing years and now many of them are being put back to the way they once were.

Behr was probably right in his reference to the “game mind” of Man in architecture that Man can be a super defining, controlling, dominating and in some ways a destroying force. Behr was talking about golf and golf architecture. He did write most of these essays in the 1920s but he did live until 1955. The supreme irony when he was initially writing these essays about the dangers of Man disrespecting Nature and perhaps destroying golf courses due to that disrespect that the time would not be long in coming when Man came to realize he could also completely dominate and ultimately destroy not just Nature but himself as well!  

« Last Edit: December 29, 2003, 01:41:14 PM by TEPaul »

Norbert P

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Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2003, 01:37:59 PM »
 That's it! I'm digging a bomb shelter.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

TEPaul

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2003, 01:51:38 PM »
"That's it! I'm digging a bomb shelter."

Slag:

In that case whatever you do just dig that bomb shelter to look as NATURAL as possible and then whatever evil MAN it is who's trying to kill you may not notice you. But even this isn't original---Alister thought of that in the Boer War--and as we all know applied the concept to golf architecture but ironically not in the way that most believe! Some actually think he was trying to HIDE his man-made golf features. Nothing of the kind--he was just trying to blend them into Nature and the look of it.

Isn't it interesting that it seems to be becoming known now that Max Behr may have been one of Mackenzie's most significant influences. I wouldn't be surprised if to a great degree it was the other way around as well!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2003, 02:14:19 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2003, 03:51:52 PM »
Jeff Brauer:

At the risk of repeating myself, skill will separate players of different ability, but luck will eventually prevail in a match between two players of comparable ability.

How would one possibly design a golf course to make it otherwise? What would we do? Turn them into perfectly flat parking lots?

Of course not. Contour is what makes the game so interesting. It also produces random results. Hence luck will always be dominant.

Some golfers may fool themselves into believing luck will not or should not prevail. These tend to be people who may be skilled but aren't serious observers of the game. Go down to your local muni or go to a professional tournament and you will see luck all over the place.



Tim,

I've always thought of golf as a game pitting my opponents incredible good luck versus my average skill, and most at least sometimes, will feel the same..... ::)

We may not be so far apart in views, but I still can't agree with your assessment.  For one, does "similarly skilled" players mean that each has the same handicap?  Within a 10 handicap range, we probably find some who get there by strength/length, others with accuracy, and still others via short game and/or putting finesse as the primary game components.

A course design is a conscious decision to reward some balance of those skills.  Only in the extreme would anyone consider a course like a parking lot, as that would be no challenge at all.  Just a dart board. So, one element of luck in a match may be the decsion of where to contest it, never mind the first tee negotiations for handicaps, side bets, etc.

Another element of luck is where competitors happen to hit their bad shots.  I may make a lousy swing on a water hole, and pile up a big score, while you may whiff one on an easy par five, and recover.  I won't begin to assess whether that is more luck or skill in controlling my swing, and it doesn't matter.  What happens happens on the golf course.  And, we all live to play another day!

I'm not sure that the most important match in the world to any reasonably serious golfer is the one he is currently involved in.  Therefore, I don't think many would resign themselves to 18 holes of friendly battle without thinking they could do something to affect the outcome over dumb luck.  That is not to say that luck eventually doesn't play its part.

Its also behind the long standing trend to use design to reward skill and thinking at the game, and minimize luck, even recognizing that it cannot be overcome completely.

There are some golfers who prefer the whimsy and luck, occaisionally, or more.  I'm actually one, having realized years ago that my 13 on hole XX last week won't matter to anyone one hundred years from now, and will be long forgotten, unless some joker puts it on my tombstone. :P
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Doug Siebert

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Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2003, 04:58:40 PM »
Jeff B said:

"My simple definitions are - If there is no way to play the hole, its unfair.  If there is one, its fair.  If there are two, its strategic.  And if there are three or more, its also flexible to most players."


What do you mean you say "no way to play the hole"?  Do you mean something where there is a carry that cannot be made, so the hole really cannot be played, or do you mean say a par 3 with a green so shallow and firm with trouble in front that one cannot hold the green and the hole must be played with a chip and a putt from behind?

I'm not sure I'd agree with the latter.  Its close, but where it is written that one must be able to par a hole with two putts?  Just like par itself being a very simplistic and overly quantized view of the expected behavior on a hole (i.e., par on a short par 5 to some extent depends on whether it is reachable for you in two)

Few people would call a hole unfair if it is an extremely long par 4 that sometimes plays into a strong wind making it unreachable in two shots even for pros (rarer today but that's an equipment issue, think back 10 years or more)  But I get the feeling a lot more people would find a 150 yard hole with a green that couldn't be held unfair.  I wouldn't, so long as you ended up with a reasonable shot coming back.  Its obviously unfair by any definition if there's OB or water behind that green, but if there's some light rough to just stop the ball, and maybe a bunker in a particular area you want to keep away from, I see no problem with it.  I wonder how many would agree with me on that however.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2003, 06:33:49 PM »
Jeff B said:

"My simple definitions are - If there is no way to play the hole, its unfair.  If there is one, its fair.  If there are two, its strategic.  And if there are three or more, its also flexible to most players."


What do you mean you say "no way to play the hole"?  Do you mean something where there is a carry that cannot be made, so the hole really cannot be played, or do you mean say a par 3 with a green so shallow and firm with trouble in front that one cannot hold the green and the hole must be played with a chip and a putt from behind?


Doug,

I think your latter example of a difficult to hold green with reasonable trouble behind is fair, but only presuming there is an area short of the green to land the ball and roll it on.  If the frontal hazards combine with the reverse slope green to kick all shots off the green, or even many shots of slightly less than Tigeriffic spin and height, its probably unfair.  Not that conditions couldn't get firm enough to make it very difficult on occaison, but under normal conditions.

That is to say, yes, if a hole is listed as a par 3, a good shot of some description (may require high, or low run in, hook or fade) should be able to find some part of the green - but not necessarily one at the pin - in 'regulation figures."  IMHO, if its difficult to hit a green, diminishing hazard value makes it fairer, but if its impossible to hit a shot on a green, diminishing the hazard difficulty doesn't make it fair.

Shot demand and punishment for misses are two separate issues in my mind.  Fairways and greens should be accessible with some kind of shot.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2003, 07:53:21 PM »
Jeff B:

You raise a good point about accessibility. I can remember before the PGA Tour opted to go across the street to the Stadium Course and played the TPC event at the old Sawgrass Course.

What people don't remember is that the layout was besieged by wind almost every year AND the course had frontal hazards that prevented many plays by rolling the ball up and on the green.

Accessibility is a feature of fairness because if there's no sure fire way to get on fairways and greens then you have nothing more than pot luck -- no pun intended. ;D

DMoriarty

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2003, 01:21:14 AM »
Shivas,

 
Second, where is the notion that Mize's shot was luck coming from? I call it 100% skill, until the ball actually goes in the hole.  At that point, it's luck whether it goes in or not, but I know that's not what you're talking about.

So let me get this straight. . . it is 100% skill except for the only part that counts?  That is exactly what I am talking about.  You guys are deluding yourselves if you think golf should be anything resembling a pure game of skill.

Regarding the passage you cited, dont get your panties in a bunch.  You've got to take it in the context of my response to Matt's initial post.  While it may be absurd, it is less so than Matt's position, and apparently yours.  This is closer to how I really feel about "fairness:"

Matt,  I dont think I can nor do I think anyone else can define fairness.  We can occassionally know it when we see it but for the most part people throwing around those terms are a danger to the game of golf and I'd rather not get involved.  As long as we are all playing the same course . . .

Despite the exaggeration for emphasis you quoted, I am not talking about you or me beating Tiger Woods through luck.  I am just saying the golfers rarely if ever get the exact result they deserve.  There are just too many other outcome determinant factors.  And that is the way it should be.  That is what makes the game exciting.  

Havent you ever won or lost a match on a fluke?  That's what makes the great post-round-grillroom-story you are always after, not perfect contact or hitting a straight ball.  

By the way, this isnt really about fairness or unfairness.  This is about Matt's unquenchable desire to shape architecture to fit a game that (big surprise) matches Matt's self image.  You've heard of Platonic Forms?  Matt's self-image is his own Platonic Form of Golfer.   Golfer hits it long and straight, and this alone seperates Golfer from the rest of the golfing rabble.  Architects must learn to honor Golfer and reward him for his greatness.  Never mind that Golfer's long straight ball gives him an immutable advantage over others, Golfer deserves more.   Golfer wannabes need to be punished for their inadequacies.  We need to seperate the wheat from the chaff.  

The fact is, the better player always has an advantage over the lesser player.  He's better.  I cannot think of a course which gives the lesser player an advantage, and neither can Matt.   Can you?  

So if the better player always has an advantage, no matter what the rub of the green, then what is all this talk about rewarding the good player and punishing the poor player?  Their respective abilities are reward and punishment enough.  
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 01:21:56 AM by DMoriarty »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2003, 03:50:46 AM »
Shivas,

ACK!!  Please tell me you are joking about the "10x" thing!  If I normally make a birdie one out of every 10 holes and find one hole that I only manage it once in 100 tries I wouldn't call it unfair, I'd call it a TOUGH HOLE!  Mere difficulty, in any measure, doesn't make a hole unfair.  Maybe its a tough par because it is a 495 yard par 4 that plays uphill into the prevailing wind.  Does it become fair when the par is changed to 5?  It would by your definition!  If I can't birdie it because the fairway is 10 yards wide surrounded by foot deep grass, or because the pin is always placed on a silly slope where I may take anywhere from 3 to 30 putts to get it down, THEN its unfair!


JeffB,

That's really where I was going with my example.  I don't think it is by definition unfair to have a hole where it really is nearly impossible to hold the green, or hold the fairway.  The setup as far as what happens as your ball leaves the green/fairway is what determines whether it is unfair or not in these cases.  It should not be what Matt Ward describes as "pot luck".  He seems to believe that if you can't be guaranteed to hit fairways and greens with good shots, it is by definition pot luck, I don't agree.  It depends on what you end up with.  I certainly think there's nothing unfair at all about a fairway that is firm and sloped in such a fashion that it is essentially impossible to keep the ball in the fairway -- providing you run out into a nicely playable first cut.  If you went directly into thick 5" grass, that'd be unfair.  And of course on a hole where you pretty much had to play from the first cut, you'd need to be either playing a relatively short shot in or have an open front to the green to allow some run in.

I'd draw the line just past the following example:  150 yard par 3, deep bunker/thick grass in front (no bounce/run up) with a firm green that makes it essentially impossible to hold the green.  While there may be a bunker behind the green, it is off to one side so it is obvious where you don't want to miss.  Other than that there's just some ordinary fairway grass or very light rough to stop the ball and leave a nice lie allowing a wide variety of options for the up and down.

I just don't think it is inherently unfair to not allow the golfer a birdie putt from the green.  The idea of "par" as 1-3 strokes then two putts isn't something I see as so vital to the game that when it is violated, the hole is by definition unfair.  There's really not anything wrong with a hole that requires you to make par with a chip and a putt, is there?  Is a hole where you have to get lucky to leave yourself a birdie putt unfair?  Even if the up and down is easy enough that pros might still average better than 3.00 on the hole?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2003, 09:22:09 AM »
JeffB,

That's really where I was going with my example.  I don't think it is by definition unfair to have a hole where it really is nearly impossible to hold the green, or hold the fairway.  The setup as far as what happens as your ball leaves the green/fairway is what determines whether it is unfair or not in these cases.  It should not be what Matt Ward describes as "pot luck".  He seems to believe that if you can't be guaranteed to hit fairways and greens with good shots, it is by definition pot luck, I don't agree.  It depends on what you end up with.  I certainly think there's nothing unfair at all about a fairway that is firm and sloped in such a fashion that it is essentially impossible to keep the ball in the fairway -- providing you run out into a nicely playable first cut.  If you went directly into thick 5" grass, that'd be unfair.  And of course on a hole where you pretty much had to play from the first cut, you'd need to be either playing a relatively short shot in or have an open front to the green to allow some run in.

I'd draw the line just past the following example:  150 yard par 3, deep bunker/thick grass in front (no bounce/run up) with a firm green that makes it essentially impossible to hold the green.  While there may be a bunker behind the green, it is off to one side so it is obvious where you don't want to miss.  Other than that there's just some ordinary fairway grass or very light rough to stop the ball and leave a nice lie allowing a wide variety of options for the up and down.

I just don't think it is inherently unfair to not allow the golfer a birdie putt from the green.  The idea of "par" as 1-3 strokes then two putts isn't something I see as so vital to the game that when it is violated, the hole is by definition unfair.  There's really not anything wrong with a hole that requires you to make par with a chip and a putt, is there?  Is a hole where you have to get lucky to leave yourself a birdie putt unfair?  Even if the up and down is easy enough that pros might still average better than 3.00 on the hole?


I think most good players would probably agree with that example.  While they don't like to have the course take away the option to aim at the pin, they would accept it on a few holes, especially if you had the back bunker off to one side, and they essentially had a safe green area to aim at, or a riskier one where the  pin was.

They would also accept it under truly unusal conditions.  However, I have seen greens rebuilt here in Texas soley because they are unplayable/not holdable  in winter winds (which are completely opposite summer breezes).  I don't know if thats right, but most golfers seem to think the course should not slow them down, regardless of conditions, so it happens.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2003, 11:34:49 AM »
Doug S:

"He (Matt) seems to believe that if you can't be guaranteed to hit fairways and greens with good shots, it is by definition pot luck, I don't agree.  It depends on what you end up with."  

Where did I use the word "guarantee?" I'll say this again for those who don't read what's printed but somehow take the opportunity to "spin" it in a manner far different that what I stated.

I said luck has a role in any game / sport. The question is one of degree. I also said -- great golf courses provide clarity in what is expected of the person playing that hole / course and do that through some form of appropriate rewards and penalties. I don't doubt randomness will take place through "rub of the green" situations. However, when a course is utterly inconsistent and where luck is the dominant strain you don't have a hole / course worthy of acclaim or respect in my mind.

P.S. I'm sorry -- forgive me -- unless David M is playing such noteworthy designs that are completely inconsistent -- he seems to favor courses that are a mold of his usual
positions -- contentious and always contrarian.  ;D

frank_D

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2003, 12:16:29 PM »
i can respond to UNFAIR

the course is UNFAIR if it 1) prohibits walking, 2) bans metal spikes, 3) is too expensive (>$100), 4) has no 19th hole or 5) is one i cannot get on to play and in pro tournaments only 6) has drastic weather changes during the tee times (i)


the course is FAIR if NONE of the above items are present AND a whole host of various other reasons which in general could be defined as EQUAL FOR ALL


(i) in tournament play only - i do not see as a level playing field if some participants do not endure severe weather which some other participants are exposed to because of inopportune tee times


what happens on the course during a round - on individual strokes - well a good shot can have a bad result and vice versa but i wouldn't apply either fair or unfair to these outcomes
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 12:23:16 PM by frank_D »

Tim_Weiman

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Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2003, 01:36:50 PM »
Shivas:

You seem not to understand that luck and randomness simply IS pervasive in the game of golf. It is not a matter of what "should" be. It simply is. Period.

Dave Moriarty is correct in suggesting there are some people who don't recognize this. Such individuals may be good golfers, but it is unlikely they are serious students of the game or golf architecture. Or they may be people with pyschological charactistics that prevent them from seeing the world the way it really is.

One can spend a lifetime working to improve one's game and do everything possible to apply "skill" when playing a round. But, the importance of luck and random events will never go away. It will always be there.

We could go to St. Andrews or any of the other great courses and bulldoze them into parking lots just to satisfy those who seem to feel golf should be all about "skill" with only a minimal role for luck. But, nobody would think the art of golf architecture had been improved, obviously.

The best thing to do is simply laugh at those who think luck isn't central to the game......or better yet teach them to laugh at themselves. Maybe when they figure out how silly they sound, they will awaken to a more enjoyable world.

Tim Weiman

THuckaby2

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2003, 01:44:42 PM »
Tim:

Those are all great points, and I can see both sides of this, personally.

I do have one query:  you say luck is "central" to the game.  This I don't get... I'd say luck is a big part of the game - and yes, as Dave says, part of what makes it great - but is far from "central" to it.  

That may well be the crux of all of this.  I doubt Matt Ward would deny that luck is part of the game... I also feel confident he wouldn't say it's central to it.  I'd guess shivas would concur with this also.

Do YOU really believe it is "central" to the game?  If you read this, do you believe this, Dave?

Luck is central to poker and blackjack, but skill is a big part of the game.

Skill is central to golf, but luck is a big part of the game.

Disagree?

Maybe you ALL would agree with this?

I get where each of you are going re how this applies to architecture, also - we've covered it many times before.  Just stick to the playing of the game - is luck really central to it, or just a big part?

TH

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2003, 02:01:46 PM »
Luck is central to poker and blackjack, but skill is a big part of the game.

Skill is central to golf, but luck is a big part of the game.

Disagree?

Need further clarification ... Does "central" mean the larger or the majority of the game?  And if so, how do you define "big part"?

Poker = Luck with the draw of cards 60%, Skill 40%

Golf = Skill 90%, Luck 10%
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Brian_Gracely

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2003, 02:07:40 PM »
The game and rules are evolving to remove "luck" or "unfair" from the game.  If you'd like to make a comparision, read Mark Frost's "Greatest Game Ever Played" and debate the "fairness" of the course conditions and rules during the 1913 Open.  The good news is that you can't completely regulate or condition luck out of the game as a round ball will always bounce and roll, and there are no standards for golf course architecture.  

Luck is inevitable if your sample size is small enough.  But over a larger sample (ie. 18 holes), skill becomes the more dominant factor over randonness and luck.

Tom - luck is central in poker and blackjack?  you obviously never took stats in school.  As an avid TV watcher, you shuld tune into ESPN's World Series of Poker 2003 and see where the skill over takes the luck.

THuckaby2

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2003, 02:09:07 PM »
Mike:  I don't really know the percentages, I'm just asking.  ;)

But yes, putting it down into percentages does clarify things.  My question remains out there to Tim, and to David M. if and when he sees this:  that is, how would each of them put the percentages for golf?  I just want to know how they see this, as it fascinates me... Personally I won't disagree with 90/10 for golf, that does seem right to me.  I said "big part" just to keep the card game comparison equal.

TH

ps - I'll trust you re card games - I just used those as an example because it seemed to me a lot of luck was involved.  But I suck so bad at all of them I sure won't disagree with 60/40 or anything you say!  ;)


THuckaby2

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2003, 02:11:37 PM »
Tom - luck is central in poker and blackjack?  you obviously never took stats in school.  As an avid TV watcher, you shuld tune into ESPN's World Series of Poker 2003 and see where the skill over takes the luck.

Brian - see my answer to Mike re that... I guess this is another instance of me using a bad example - happens all the time here!  

TH

THuckaby2

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2003, 02:22:53 PM »
That's what has me perplexed re the role of luck in all of this also... shivas and I are pretty equal as players, so sure, luck might determine a hole or two in a match between us.  It's possible that the luckier player would win any given match... But for every time that occurred I'd have to guess that at least 10 other times the guy who actually hit the ball better and made more putts would carry the day.  Yes, I know, luck can make putts go in or stay out, due to the natural inconsistencies of even the best greens (see Dave Pelz lumpy donut effect).  But a strong consistent stroke will make MORE go in than luck ever will, and a crappy stroke will make more stay out.

On the other hand, if I play Tiger, I could have all the luck in the world and him get every single bad break and I'm still not gonna last much past the 12th tee, if I get that far.   ;)

So what is the story here?  I remain confused as to what Dave M., and now Tim, are trying to say....

Luck should never be removed from the game - I concur with Dave M. that it is part of what makes the game great - I would have cracked up laughing at shivas' bad bounce on THE Redan - and if it happened to me I would have cursed the gods.  But instances like that are very cool, and are part of what keeps us playing.  But then again, so are well-struck shots that actually achieve the deserved result... much more so, aren't they?

TH
« Last Edit: December 30, 2003, 02:30:00 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Brian_Gracely

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2003, 02:34:49 PM »
But instances like that are very cool, and are part of what keeps us playing.  But then again, so are well-struck shots that actually achieve the deserved result... much more so, aren't they?

TH

You're now a spokesman for Callaway?  

THuckaby2

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2003, 02:37:26 PM »
Brian:

Oh man, that was painfully close to their ad campaign, huh?  God I hate to give them any credit... but I guess they are right, at least about that statement!   ;D ;D

I have a feeling I am gonna get in some hot water for how that statement might be taken, though.   ;)

And the main thing is, I am proud and honored to be quoted at the bottom of your post.  That capsulizes me at my waffling, consensus-building best/worst.   ;)

TH

Tim_Weiman

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Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2003, 04:32:49 PM »
Tom Huckaby:

For the purpose of this thread I haven't referred to Webster's dictionary and am not trying to engage in the precise use of the English language.

Instead, I've used words like "pervasive" or "central" or "dominant" because in my years of observing golf it is difficult to reach any conclusion other than luck and randomness being at the heart of the game.

By that I mean luck or randomness will come into play on nearly every shot played, certainly every full shot or recovery shot.

Why is that?

Because when you consider the link between contour  and shot dispersion, one can see that nearly equivalent shots can yield very different results.

How can we say that the man who hit his approach to land two feet from his competitor but came to rest quite far away wasn't unlucky?

Can Tiger Woods beat me over the course of 18 holes? Yes, he can. Is the difference skill or luck? Clearly, the difference is skill not luck. But, the moment either Tiger or myself plays against an equally skilled competitor, luck is more likely than not to determine the outcome assuming both competitors play to their game.

Golfers often spend their lives trying to improve their skills. A man may progress from being a beginner to a mid handicap to a low hindicap and, maybe, go on to being a tournament level player. But, luck and randomness will remain ever present, it will lurk and intervene frequently and without warning. That is just how golf is.

I mention psychology because it is also central to either casual or tournament golf. The man who can accept the role luck and randomness plays is more likely to either enjoy casual golf or prevail in tournament play.

Getting back to architecture, we would have to flatten every golf course - do drastic surgery - to remove the element of luck. Again, can you imagine anyone thinking the R&A ought to bulldoze the Old Course just to be sure one man doesn't win a match by getting a lucky bounce?


Tim Weiman

THuckaby2

Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2003, 04:48:28 PM »
Tim:

That explanation helps a lot - thanks.  So it appears to me you don't take this to the extreme that I thought... I wasn't trying to parse words with you; no, I just wanted to know what you meant by "central" to the game.  It seems you understand what I said above - that is, that if shivas and I (equal players) play a match, luck has a role... but if I play Tiger, no amount of luck will save me.  Very good - by saying "central to the game" I thought you meant I'd have a chance against Tiger if the breaks went my way.  Obviously that is not true.

BTW, I absolutely accept that luck has a part in the game - just how much is where you and I might disagree.  Put it this way:  it isn't luck that's helped me play against certain friends of mine hundreds of times and never lose once, ever... nor was it bad luck that screwed me against certain superior players I play with a lot, who I in turn have never beaten....

And please understand that taking this to the architectural, I NEVER advocated removing the element of luck.  On the contrary - I've said several times it is a part of the game, and a part I enjoy, frankly.  If anyone said this, it wasn't me.  I'm just trying to get a grasp of what you guys mean by how luck fits into how the game is played.

The problem is this:  I too have observed and played the game for many years... and I heartily disagree with the statement that "it is difficult to reach any conclusion other than luck and randomness being at the heart of the game."  I would put this very differently:  luck and randomness have a definite role in the game, but it's diffiicult to reach any conclusion other than that over time skill wins out.

I guess it comes down to parsing words again, and what we mean by all this... "Heart of the game" can again be taken many different ways.  If you mean to say that luck and randonmess determine the exact position of the ball after each and every shot, I'd concur - with the qualifier that skill takes it the first 99% of the distance of its journey, luck determines the final 1%.  At times that 1% can be very bad.  But it remains 1% of the determiner of the result of the shot.  It's difficult for me to call that the "heart of the game"....

Of course accepting that good strikes can lead to bad results - now THAT is at the very heart of the game, and yes, the best players, and keenest lovers of the game, know this and accept it without question.

It doesn't mean they lose to inferior players very often, though.

So perhaps in the end we do agree more than we disagree, as has happened before?  

TH





Bill Gayne

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Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2003, 04:54:46 PM »
Tim, interesting post and the idea of randomness at the professional/tournament level. Can randomness be minimized/eliminated over an extended number of holes through course design and set-up?

I've always thought of the British Open as being the most random/quirky of the major championships. To a certain extent I think the R&A likes randomness to occur with some of their set-ups. The winners and contenders are often surprising and the way that victory is achieved or given away is always great to watch.

In my mind the tournament that does the best at eliminating this randomness from producing a champion seems to be the US Open. The consistency of the set-up and the role that the USGA plays in determining the set-up is critical.


Tim_Weiman

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Re:Define "Fair" & "Unfair" ???
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2003, 05:45:57 PM »
BillG:

I do believe that when you extend the number of holes, the more skill player is more likely to prevail. That's why I quoted Bob Lewis as saying four rounds was a better test than one. Having played the amateur game at the very highest level Walker Cup, US Am finalist), Bob clearly believed that anything could happen in one round, i.e., that luck or randomness could prevail.

I do believe British Open golf includes a greater dose of randomness that the US Open. Part of this is the courses themselves; part of it can be attributed to set up.

FYI, while I oppose Matt and Shivas' emphasis on skill, strangely I've also been as big a supporter of USGA type setups as anyone on this board. Without re-hashing all those argument, I simply believe one major tournament should be conducted that way - a sort of in your face, very clear and straight forward test for a super elite class of players. But, for everyday golf or ever for every major, how boring would that be?

Tom Huckaby:

I'm not sure where to draw the line on where we agree or disagree, but I wouldn't go for a 99/1 split in favor of skill. The wto players who make it to something like the finals of the US Am are obviously quite skilled. But, ever with a 36 hole match, luck and randomness may prevail - if even by that one and critically decisive winning shot.
Tim Weiman

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