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Brent Hutto

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2006, 09:32:07 PM »
IMHO to keep the traditions of the game.
No putting croquet style.
No putting with the the club anchored to your body other than to your hands.
No balls whose spin rates are disproportional to the angle of the clubface.

Honestly, Garland, I'm not trying to pick on you but I disgree with the way you state this. When you say "No balls whose spin rates are disproportional to the angle of the clubface", that's way too vague to write into a ball specification and test procedure. If they're writing a rule to legislate the distance and spin of golf balls at high clubhead speeds, they have to state what specific distance and spin they want at a specific clubhead speed. Just stating it at one (low) clubhead speed and then saying it has to be "proportional" isn't nearly exact enough.

For years they assumed that the only golf ball a good player would want to use is a three-piece, wound one with a balata cover. Now more than a decade after that assumption ceased to hold they are still trying to get their heads around the fact that someone could build a very, very different ball that good players would use. There's no way to put the genie back in the bottle and just wave their hands and say "Don't use balls that work a lot better than balata ones".

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2006, 11:56:06 PM »

Jason,

Not only is there "nothing magic" about the 2.5 yard per MPH rule of thumb you quote, in fact there to my knowledge nothing in the USGA ball specification that addresses in any way the relationship between clubhead speed and distance. AFAIK, the USGA conformance test takes place at a single clubhead speed and there are no constraints expressed or implied concerning how the ball reacts at different clubhead speeds.

Don't confuse contingent facts of history and detailed observation of past and existing golf balls (from which arises that frequently invoked 2.5 yard/MPH relationship) with the ball rules. The behavior of actual golf balls is complex, the rules are quite simple.

Brent - I know that the equation is more complex than I indicate, but it is about the limit of my analytical ability.    :)

 Nonetheless, I think it provides a useful model for thinking about how driving distance is regulated.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2006, 12:29:09 AM »
Brent,
No way to put the genie back in the bottle?
They put the croquet putter completely back in the bottle.
They put the driver COR genie at least part way back in the bottle.
I think there is still hope they will put the belly putter genie back in the bottle.

Since I am not working for the USGA concerning the rules about technology, I won't be attemting to write their rule for them. I think they would understand the point I am getting at.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2006, 07:44:51 AM »
"This change is inequitable, because the Pro V eliminates the disadvantage of the old balls for the low handicappers who use spin to get the ball close to the hole, while giving nothing to high handicappers who can't get the ball close to the hole with anything other than a putter (and often fail with that club too )."

Garland:

Thanks, I finally understand what your point is regarding a distance increase for high mph players when they switiched from a high spin to a low spin ball.

However, I most certainly don't agree with you that it was inequitable in any way, distance-wise or other wise. To me your reasoning is really specious. You say high mph players suffered a disadvantage (compared to low mph players) distance-wise with the old high spin balls, and then the manufacturers removed that DISadvantage for high mph players and you think that was inequitable? I just don't buy that kind of reasoning. Sorry.

As for your contention that low mph players not being able to generate the kind of spin to get approach shots close to the hole the way high mph players could (suck back and such) is in some way inequitable, that too is simply a function of the degrees of skill that high mph players possess and low mph players generally don't. Again, that's a reality of degrees of talent or skill that manufacturers or the regulatory bodies hopefully will never try to micro-manage. To me that would also be distorting through technology the natural results of talent or skill.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 07:54:51 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2006, 08:43:29 AM »
"For years they assumed that the only golf ball a good player would want to use is a three-piece, wound one with a balata cover. Now more than a decade after that assumption ceased to hold they are still trying to get their heads around the fact that someone could build a very, very different ball that good players would use. There's no way to put the genie back in the bottle and just wave their hands and say "Don't use balls that work a lot better than balata ones"."

Brent:

You said the behavior of the golf ball is complex and the rules (I&B) are simple, is probably an accurate statement to a large degree. In the history of the R&A/USGA monitoring and regulating of golf balls and golf implements it certainly is true that relative to the complexities of both construction and results in golf of golf balls and golf implements the R&A/USGA rules and regs are simple.

To us the results of how balls and clubs perform are paramount. The results of how balls and clubs perform are paramount to the USGA Tech Center too but what very few of us realize is how paramount the actual tests the USGA designs and uses are to them. In other words, they can only be as good as the tests they design and create themselves. Comprehensive I&B rules and regs are always subject to the effectiveness or the limitations of their tests to determine information of the complexities of the behavior of balls and implements. Just as this world has never fully understood, and may never fully understand, the potentials of technology in various areas, either has the USGA's Tech Center.

The reason for that should be obvious. It's hard enough for them to imagine what may be coming down the manufacturer pipeline at them which their rules and regs do not address or encompass. The ball problem, if one wants to call it that, is one of the best examples. They had rules to address, and they thought to encompass, golf balls in an ODS fashion but obviously no one really looked at what the relative results were both below and also potentially above that ODS factor of mph that was simply used in a scientific test framework for their over-all distance conformace "pass/fail" determination of golf balls.

That mph factor, in their opinions, back then, and in a scientific test framework could have been almost any mph. 109mph was obviously just chosen to some degree arbitrarily. Clearly no one really looked very hard to see if there were anamolies, in a linear sense, in distance production relative to swing speed of the various types of golf balls that were ODS legal. Spin rate was a factor, for instance, that was never regulated and still isn't.

In the last four years (since 2002) the USGA's $10 mil ball study has tried to look much, much deeper into those golf ball behavior complexities and they now believe to a large degree they have succeeded in their study. Because of that study, new rules and regs for both implements and balls may be forthcoming.

That's the way it goes with R&A/USGA testing, monitoring and I&B rules and regs writing. They're obviously getting much better at foreseeing the performance results of what may be coming down the I&B pipeline at them and preparing tests for it that can be translated into effective rules and regs on performance results.

Another more basic way to look at the history of I&B testing and rules and reg writing on the part of the R&A/USGA is when Frank Thomas came to the USGA in 1976 the Tech Center was not much bigger than a four car garage.

It's easy for us to say today that they should have known everything but that's just not the reality of the way these things work.

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2006, 08:58:49 AM »
Brent:

As far as the R&A/USGA putting the distance "genie" back in the bottle---of course they can do that. All they have to do is write new or additional I&B rules and regs that put limitations on the distance increases we've seen in the last 10-15 years. They claim they know enough (after their recent $10 mil study) to begin to do that. Obviously both politcially and legally that's not an easy thing to do. Hardly anyone on this website seems to understand or appreciate that fact but it's nonetheless completely true.

If they effectively erase the distance gains of particularly elite players in the last 10-15 years they will need to deem as "nonconforming" probably every ball on the market and being used today. That transition takes time obviously.

Actually rolling the distance the ball goes back effectively has never really been attempted in golf I&B legislation with one interesting exception.

In the 1920s and early 1930s the distance issue was raging perhaps just as much as it is today. The issue was whether to standardize the golf ball with what was known as the "floater". The USGA actually did legislate that the "floater" was the standard golf ball to be used in golf. Unfortunately the golfing public did not accept the "floater" and that standard and that legislation had to be dropped after being in effect for only one year.

Let's hope whatever they may do to effectively limit or rollback distance in the future will be met with more success with the golfing public than the "floater" ball was.

Brent Hutto

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2006, 09:14:09 AM »
Tom,

My "genie in the bottle" comment was in reference to [my interpretation of] Garland's suggestion that they should write rules such that the old pattern is restored in which a good player's golf ball upshoots and doesn't achieve optimum distance at high swing speeds with driver lofts. As you correctly point out, the issue is much more complicated than that.

Hence, the USGA have invested years and dollars in figuring out the fundamental mechanism so that they don't make a whole 'nother set of naiive rules that assume too much. I am hopeful that they'll get what they need from their studies and that through some magic confluence of politics and the random breezes of the zeitgeist a reasonable set of new ball specs can be promulgated and found acceptable by the mass of golfers. Hopefully.

BTW, in my opinion the whole "floater" thing was a red herring whose only currency was achieved due to the happenstance of a golf ball's density being only slightly greater than that of water. It was possible in the 1920's and it is certainly within easy reach in the 2000's to make a ball exactly the weight and size of the current ball but which doesn't fly as far.

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2006, 11:56:18 AM »
"Tom,
My "genie in the bottle" comment was in reference to [my interpretation of] Garland's suggestion that they should write rules such that the old pattern is restored in which a good player's golf ball upshoots and doesn't achieve optimum distance at high swing speeds with driver lofts. As you correctly point out, the issue is much more complicated than that."

Brent:

I'm definitely no tech person but from what I understand from the questions I have so far asked of the Tech Center that may not necessarily be as difficult as you might think. A very large part of that issue MAY lie in the fact of spin rate! In other words, if the regulatory bodies wanted to restore that old pattern, as you call it, one way just might be to put a limitation on the minimum amount of spin rate of a golf ball (off some reliable test barometer). For instance the old "soft" ball they say spun at about 3,000 rpms while a ProV type spins at about 2,000 rpms. That's a big difference.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 11:57:26 AM by TEPaul »

Brent Hutto

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2006, 12:18:15 PM »
Tom,

I wouldn't necessarily object to seeing them use that approach. My point is if they want to see some minimum spin rate under certain conditions, they'll need to specify how much spin and under what conditions. There's no point in specifically trying to replicate the performance of a wound balata ball.

In other words, choosing a specification that ensures the performance you want to see is good. Choosing a specification that tries to force the manufacturers into duplication an obsolete ball is unwise. I know that sounds like splitting hairs but in my experience even very bright people are prone to describing "how it used to be in the past" when the question being asked is "how do you want it to be in the future"?

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2006, 12:28:26 PM »
Brent:

That really is both splitting hairs as well as being sort of unnecessarily general.

Again, the Tech Center after this very comprehensive study they've been doing on the ball for the last four years, I'm sure know a whole lot better than they used to how to achieve an effect with new golf ball rules and regs. In other words if they want to achieve the basic effect of creating the trajectory high mph players used to have with the old higher spinning balls, I'm quite sure they could do that.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2006, 10:14:47 PM »
"This change is inequitable, because the Pro V eliminates the disadvantage of the old balls for the low handicappers who use spin to get the ball close to the hole, while giving nothing to high handicappers who can't get the ball close to the hole with anything other than a putter (and often fail with that club too )."

Garland:

Thanks, I finally understand what your point is regarding a distance increase for high mph players when they switiched from a high spin to a low spin ball.

However, I most certainly don't agree with you that it was inequitable in any way, distance-wise or other wise. To me your reasoning is really specious. You say high mph players suffered a disadvantage (compared to low mph players) distance-wise with the old high spin balls, and then the manufacturers removed that DISadvantage for high mph players and you think that was inequitable? I just don't buy that kind of reasoning. Sorry.

As for your contention that low mph players not being able to generate the kind of spin to get approach shots close to the hole the way high mph players could (suck back and such) is in some way inequitable, that too is simply a function of the degrees of skill that high mph players possess and low mph players generally don't. Again, that's a reality of degrees of talent or skill that manufacturers or the regulatory bodies hopefully will never try to micro-manage. To me that would also be distorting through technology the natural results of talent or skill.

Tom,
Methinks you misread me. I did not write high speed swingers and low speed swingers. I wrote low handicappers and high handicappers. When I was young I was a high speed high handicapper. Now I'm just a dud. :)

When I referred to getting the ball close to the hole, I was referring as much to shaping the shots as I was to generating backspin. The change in the ball spin has reduced the need for this skill to be able to compete at the highest levels. So it seems your argument is "specious", because skill has been replaced with brute strength. I am not asking for "micro-management" of talent or skill. I am asking for restriction of technology, a technology that differs from what has always been available in the history of golf. It is not a new concept; they still use wooden bats in the bigs don't they?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 01:46:47 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2006, 01:33:12 AM »
...
BTW, in my opinion the whole "floater" thing was a red herring whose only currency was achieved due to the happenstance of a golf ball's density being only slightly greater than that of water. It was possible in the 1920's and it is certainly within easy reach in the 2000's to make a ball exactly the weight and size of the current ball but which doesn't fly as far.
It seems that Titleist is doing just what Brent describes with their patent application. A ball with all the characteristics of the current balls, but just doesn't go as far. It seems the USGA and the manufacturers have learned from the floater ball "experiment."
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2006, 06:04:32 AM »
Garland:

Regarding your post #60--I don't think we have much else to talk about. High handicappers are not very relevent to this discussion of distance and the golf ball.

As far as shaping the ball, if the regulatory bodies included a limitation on the minimum amount of spin rate on the golf ball that would also likely bring back the ability to shape the ball depending on the extent of the limitation on minimum spin rate.

"It seems that Titleist is doing just what Brent describes with their patent application. A ball with all the characteristics of the current balls, but just doesn't go as far. It seems the USGA and the manufacturers have learned from the floater ball "experiment."

Garland:

Last April the regulatory bodies asked all the manufacturers to submit prototype golf balls that go 15 and 25 yards less far. Less far than what? According to Equipment Standards Committee chairman, Jim Vernon, less far than the present Overall Distance Standard (ODS). To me that sounds like the R&A/USGA, if they then decide to adopt as the new standard those new prototype balls that go 15 or 25 yards less far that they will be establishing a new ODS with a distance limitation at the "pass/fail" line 15 or 25 yards below the present ODS.

That's the ball. They are also looking at "spin generation" in how a golf club creates spin on the ball. And they are looking at MOI which very well may mean golf clubs may not be so forgiving in the future in the sense that "twist" at impact may not be so limited (if I'm understand correctly what MOI with golf clubs is bascially about).
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 06:48:27 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2006, 06:19:40 AM »
"BTW, in my opinion the whole "floater" thing was a red herring whose only currency was achieved due to the happenstance of a golf ball's density being only slightly greater than that of water. It was possible in the 1920's and it is certainly within easy reach in the 2000's to make a ball exactly the weight and size of the current ball but which doesn't fly as far."

Brent:

I'm not sure why you'd call the "floater" a red herring. It seems to have been a uniquely basic concept on limiting the performance of a golf ball. In other words, if the golf ball was standardized to be no heavier than a ball that could float in water that fact would bring the the wind and such much more into the game again and golf would require more skill. That standard was attempted and apparently the regulatory bodies realized it was not being accepted as they must have hoped it would be.

Brent Hutto

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2006, 06:55:28 AM »
I'm not sure why you'd call the "floater" a red herring. It seems to have been a uniquely basic concept on limiting the performance of a golf ball. In other words, if the golf ball was standardized to be no heavier than a ball that could float in water that fact would bring the the wind and such much more into the game again and golf would require more skill. That standard was attempted and apparently the regulatory bodies realized it was not being accepted as they must have hoped it would be.

Because the fact that a ball does or doesn't float in water has nothing to do with playing golf. If someone thinks a lighter and/or larger ball will be desirable, then make a lighter and/or larger ball. If the ball that plays the best happens to float, fine. As it turns out, the ball that plays the best happens not to float. That's fine, golf isn't played in or on water. In fact, floating on water has nothing remotely to do with how well a golf ball is suited to playing golf. It is totally a non-sequitor.

Any argument or suggestion that brings up the requirement of floating the ball on water is invalid on its face. Anyone babbling about the ball floating is obviously not seriously concentrating on the question at hand, to wit What is the best size and weight of a golf ball for its intended purpose of playing golf?

Tom, I enjoy and benefit from having discussions with you on various topics and respect your thoughtfulness and intellegence on a wide range of issues. But frankly I'm at a bit of a loss in understanding how you can fail to see that this old "floater" reasoning is totally meaningless. That's not a jibe or an insult, it's truly a puzzlement. It's one of those situations where the only thing I can do is say "Well, you sure can't argue with logic like that". ???

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2006, 08:34:26 AM »
"Any argument or suggestion that brings up the requirement of floating the ball on water is invalid on its face. Anyone babbling about the ball floating is obviously not seriously concentrating on the question at hand, to wit What is the best size and weight of a golf ball for its intended purpose of playing golf?"

Brent:

It seems to me you have a sort of a strange way of analyzing things. I really don't know who you are Brent, or what you know about this overall subject but the "floater" ball issue was a really enormous one back then that was debated endlessly through much of the late 1920s and into the 1930s when it was temporarily legislated.

Apparently a golf ball that was light enough to just float was deemed by some pretty interesting and very significant people in golf to just happen to be of a "weight" that would make the game as challenging as some pretty good minds in golf back then thought it should be.

Again, I don't know who you are Brent but I think to say the likes of C.B. Macdonald, Max Behr, apparently such as Hutchinson or Darwin were pursuing a total 'non-sequitor' seems a bit arrogant on your part. But perhaps you just don't know much about that whole "floater" ball issue back then and what it was exactly that its advocates were trying to accomplish.

Some people who don't know much about that "floater" issue back then seem to think its advocates suggested it simply because golf balls wouldn't be so easily lost in water. Basically that had very little to almost nothing to do with it.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 08:38:33 AM by TEPaul »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2006, 11:58:25 AM »
I really don't know why a ball floating on water is being discussed. It is my understanding that the USGA never specified a ball would float on water. John Vander Borght writes in the In My Opinion section about the "balloon ball" aka floater. The USGA slightly increased the size and slightly lowered the weight of the standardized ball. This ball would float on the wind too much and the public rejected it. Given technology of the time, I recon that was the level of standardization the USGA was capable of. Given the technology available to the USGA now, they can go much further in their regulation methods.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2006, 12:38:01 PM »
...IF, with these new balls, distance has finally reached a linear relationship through the swing speed spectrum what could be more equitable than that?
...
Let's look at equitable in a different sense.
Garland:

Regarding your post #60--I don't think we have much else to talk about. High handicappers are not very relevent to this discussion of distance and the golf ball.
Tom,
I hope you can see from the quotes above that I have not been trying to join the "discussion of distance and the golf ball." I have been trying to move the discussion to another sense of equitable. The current technology has widened the gap between the elite and the skill disadvantaged. I believe that to be inequitable. I believe that to be a detriment to the future of the game. A golfing novice will start the game and have trouble driving the ball 200 yards. Then he will go home and watch Tiger, et. al. have trouble driving 400 yards. The novice has to be satisfied with approximately 1/2 the distance of the elite. Why should he feel good about himself and the prospect of enjoying a game that TV shows him he so obviously sucks at. Why should he feel good about himself and his golf game when he has to walk or ride past 3 and somethimes 4 sets of tees to reach the tees designated for him to play. The reason distance comes into my sense of inequitable is because that is the thing that the elite have gained from the change in spin behavior. The novice or high handicapper sees no gain from the change in spin behavior. The novice may see the gain in backspin cause his ball to stop more suddenly, but since it only happens on the few times he hits it cleanly and his accuracy and distance control are so bad, he really sees no benefit from it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2006, 01:04:18 PM »
"The novice or high handicapper sees no gain from the change in spin behavior."

Garland:

In a linear distance sense the high handicapper may've seen some of that gain decades ago when he began using low spin rate golf balls. Or on the other side of the coin the low swing speed player never was disadvantaged distance-wise by a high spin rate ball like high swing speed players always were. The reason was the low swing speed player could never hit that ball hard enough to get it to fly in that disadvantageous trajectory for distance. The low handicap high mph player didn't see that gain until he started using low spin balls around 10 years ago.

Thanks for telling me you weren't taking part in the discusson on distance and that you wanted to move the discussion to something else you think is inequitable. I just don't think there's enough concern about that to get into that discussion.

Sorry.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2006, 02:22:37 PM »
...IF, with these new balls, distance has finally reached a linear relationship through the swing speed spectrum what could be more equitable than that?
...
Since I have not disagreed with this statement, the readers of this board may already have surmised that I agree with it. In that you would be correct.

However, this is only one dimension of the discussion of the ball. Note that I did not call it the "distance ball", because there is no one "distance ball" unless it might be a TopFlite which might claim "distance ball" as a trademark.

If we are going to use an adjective, why don't we use the adjective straight as in straight ball. The new balls that are an issue are straight as well as long. Therefore, we see the players graduating from the Nationwide tour to the PGA tour are straight ball hitters, (they just happen to be hitting it farther too) and if we were to require that the Nationwide tour use the old higher spinning ball, then a different set of higher skilled players would be graduating from the Nationwide tour to the PGA tour. So we see an inequity with the new balls. They give an advantage to lower skilled, higher athletic players. Is that what we want? Is that what is good for golf? Hasn't part of the attraction of golf been that it can be played decently by the less athletically endowed?

I think a discussion of the new balls is more complete when it is not one dimensional and welcome others to suggest additional dimensions of discussion.

Note: Tiger dominates with the old ball against highly skilled players, because he is long, and he dominates with the new ball straight players, because he is highly skilled)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 02:28:10 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brent Hutto

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2006, 02:55:09 PM »
Some people who don't know much about that "floater" issue back then seem to think its advocates suggested it simply because golf balls wouldn't be so easily lost in water. Basically that had very little to almost nothing to do with it.

For some reason the meme of a ball that floats caught people's fancy 75 years ago. That still doesn't mean that a ball of the correct density to float on water has one thing in the world to do with golf. The only reason for a bunch of truly bright and influential people to talk about the ball floating on water would be if they somehow thought that idea would make it palatable or memorable to people stupider than them. Who knows, I wasn't around back then.

Bottom line, if you tell me that golf balls ought to be painted red because that's the color of maple leaves in the fall I'd tell you that you're talking nonsense. Maybe red is a good color for golf balls but if so it's nothing to do with maple leaves. Same thing with a golf ball that floats on water. If that's a good weight and size for a golf ball it sure ain't because it floats on water. It's just silly talk.

Brent Hutto

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2006, 03:05:04 PM »
Let me put it another way.

Imagine a golf ball that is six inches in diameter, weighs three-quarters of a ounce and is perfectly smooth with no dimples. That golf ball will float on water like a son of a gun. It's a floater. But it won't be worth crap for playing golf.

Floating on water has nothing to do with whether a golf ball works well for playing golf. That's my sole point in this whole silly argument.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 03:38:04 PM by Brent Hutto »

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2006, 03:34:23 PM »
Look, Garland, if we are going to have any semblance of an intelligent discussion about golf balls of any time and in use by any players, please desist from totally ridiculous statements such as the one you made above that most all the elite players hit the ball straight today or even straighter than they used to.

If you really want to see what a crock of shit statement that is just get off line and go tune into Doral as I'm about to do and did yesterday. Some things on this thread may have some truth to them but the remark that these tour players hit the ball straight or straighter than they used to is crap. Even the last couple of groups yesterday who were all around the lead were hitting tee shots all over the damn lot.

TEPaul

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2006, 03:38:46 PM »
"For some reason the meme of a ball that floats caught people's fancy 75 years ago. That still doesn't mean that a ball of the correct density to float on water has one thing in the world to do with golf. The only reason for a bunch of truly bright and influential people to talk about the ball floating on water would be if they somehow thought that idea would make it palatable or memorable to people stupider than them. Who knows, I wasn't around back then."

Hey, Brent, that remark effectively ends any further discussion I'm going to have with you on this subject. You're talking about people like Macdonald, Behr, Hunter, probably Hutchinson and Darwin. Again, I don't know you but I'd bet just about anything they knew a whole truck load more about golf than you do.

Jordan Wall

Re:The Patented Distance Ball...
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2006, 03:44:35 PM »
Just some fairway stats from the PGA and from some notable players.  I dont know what the percentages were from say 40 years back but here is what it looks like today.

Tiger Woods...48%
John Daly...48%
Bubba Watson...42%
JB Holmes...51%
Tours leading money winer (Rory Sabbatini)...54%

That is just a few stats but 60% of tour players hit less then 60% of fairways, and the highest is 78%.  That doesnt sound too straight to me, and btw Tiger has missed all fairways after the 8th hole today...what is today like -3 ???  Umm, maybe time for some changes eh?

btw I edited it---60% of players have hit less[/color] then 60%
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 06:41:10 PM by Jordan Wall »

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