[John Kavanaugh]

I hit the ball 40 yds left or right all the time...It must just be me.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK - it's not just you - we all do that.  Just remember it's 40 yards ON THE FLY... anything rolling will stop quickly.  Contrast that with PD.

Seriously man - hazard is a thought on the 2nd, for sure - that's among the things that makes this a very tough hole. But off the tee?  I don't see it.

TH

[Pete Lavallee]

Honestly in all the times I've played that hole pre and post Rees, I've never seen anyone cross the red line to the left.

I have seen lots of big numbers when people get in the rough to the left of the fairway though.

[JohnV]

Let me change the subject slightly.  In what way do #4 at PD and #13 at PD differ and why can't we say that they are simply mirror images of each other?

#4


#13

[DMoriarty]

Pete, your point is well taken regarding the terrain and the infeasibility of doing something like I suggested.  I was more trying to demonstrate the difference with PD 4.  That being said, I dont think that the designers past and present took full advantage of the land and the barancas on the South Course.  I agree they had to be careful with how close they built to the edge, but to completely take so many of the features out of play by so far is a missed opportunity if you ask me, which of course you didnt.

I think David's revision of the greenside bunker with the added width makes the hole too easy in some peoples mind.

Barney, The bunkers are in the exact same spots.  I added the back left one to "mirror" PD 4, but otherwise they are the same.  What is different is that I moved the green to the coast side of the bunker, along the cliff, so that golfers approaching from the right side not only have to deal with the front right bunker but also the ocean left and back.  

The green contours and pin position could also alter the strategy from various angles, assuming that the green was well done and worked with the terrain.  

But let's assume you are correct and that the version I suggested would play easier than the current monster at Torrey Pines.  Is this necessarily a bad thing?  
Which hole would you rather play (assuming my changes were possible?)  
Which hole is better given the setting of a heavily played hybrid public facility/resort course? And since you seem to put so much weight on professional tournament play at this resort/public course, which hole would you rather watch at the 2008 Open, and why?  

[DMoriarty]

John V.

Just looking at the images you posted, they look somewhat similar, but they sure dont feel similar.  From the tee a big difference is that rather than feeding balls toward the ocean, No. 13 look like it will deflect balls away from the ocean.   deflects balls away from the ocean.  In fact the landing area on No. 13 has a bowled feel to me even though it is definitely possible to bounce into the trouble on the right.  

Also, No. 13's approach is uphill and the green at least partially blind.  

Lastly, the ground on No. 13 seems to be much more undulating, creating a higher possibility of an uneven lie. different, the shape of the tee.  

[David Kelly]

A big difference between #4 and #13 at Pacific Dunes is that on #4 there is a lot of room down the left side if you want to bail out way away from the cliff (although avoiding the bunkers is hard when the hole is downwind). The hole runs parallel to the 12th hole so there is a lot of room over there.  Of course bailing out makes your approach almost impossible but at least you are alive.

However, on #13 you can't bail out too far away from the cliff on the left because there are some nasty bunkers lining most of the right side and behind them are dunes.

Also #4 plays predominately downwind while #13 plays into it which also goes a long way to changing the feel and challenge of the holes.

[JohnV]

Obviously the direction of the wind makes a huge difference on 4 and 13.  

Even though 4 has more bailout, I seem to have flirted with the water much more there than on 13.

The green on 13 doesn't deflect balls towards the cliff like 4's and doesn't have the hanging-over-the-water feel that 4 seems to have.

The fairway on 13 has a lot more movement in it that 4 which leads to interesting stances.

[Sean Leary]

I feel the same way about the tee shot on thirteen as it has been explained above about 4 at Torrey. The water doesn't cross my mind at all.  The fairway seems much wider on 13 than it does on 4, at least to me........

[Michael Hayes]

RE: #13...There is that speed slot that is open only to the aggressive drive down the left(ocean) side of the golf hole.  

I agree with the theory that the fear factor is not as great on 13 v. 4.  I know there is more room right on 4 than it looks but I always steer left and have the most difficult approach on the golf course.

[Tom_Doak]

John K, if you´re still watching this thread -

The one factor no one talked about is that the fourth at Pacific Dunes most often plays seriously downwind.  I would never have bunkered the green as tightly as the Torrey Pines hole because when the summer wind is blowing in Bandon, good players have trouble stopping the ball on that fourth green, even though it´s fifty yards deep.

If you want extremely tight bunkering you´ll have to go to Sebonack.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

The one time I played the 4th it was into a brutal wind and sleet.  Between me and my 22 handicap partner playing alternate shot we mad a fantastic bogey.  His drive my three wood his fantastic wedge from 100 yds and a two putt.  It was as memorable hole as I ever played if that means anything..the weather was just to severe to pay much attention.

I look forward to playing Sebonack and contemplating why the bunkering is so tight...I'm sure I'll be wrong once again.

(I just love it when people say they look forward to playing a very exclusive club...the thought makes me smile.)

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

The one time I played the 4th it was into a brutal wind and sleet.  Between me and my 22 handicap partner playing alternate shot we mad a fantastic bogey.  His drive my three wood his fantastic wedge from 100 yds and a two putt.  It was as memorable hole as I ever played if that means anything..the weather was just to severe to pay much attention.

John,

First, my apologies for questioning your motives on this thread.  I think it's turned into a very good discussion and what seemed to be a trick question has generated some thoughtful responses.  

Second, you faced the "winter wind" at PD, which is directly opposite the prevailing wind the rest of the year.  When I played the 4th at PD I hit solid driver, solid 2-iron, and then one of the most fun shots I've ever hit...a 70 yard 4-iron that never got more than 5 feet off the ground and which looped in from the left perfectly, running up to about 8 feet.  

If you imagine the difference in seasonal winds, the 13th was driver-sand-wedge and that's the hole that normally plays more the bear between the two.

The wind at the site combined with the firmness of the turf certainly made tight bunkering rather impractical.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

No need to apologize for questioning my motives...you wouldn't believe the times I have said something really stupid that I think is right only to be given a pass because smarter people thought it was a joke.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

I know the feeling.  

There have also been times I've said something really stupid that somehow was interpreted as profound.

I sometimes feel like the Chancey Gardiner of this board.  

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