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Doug Siebert

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2006, 01:10:53 AM »
Quote from: TEPaul on January 07, 2006, 10:20:27 AM
I told them I don't believe they'll have to go outside the USGA's Green Section and their regional reps. I already had a long conversation with Jim Snow about this issue of firm and fast and he understands it obviously and he seems into it too at least as an alternative. I believe if we can show him and the Green Section that there're clubs out there who want to do it, or want to know about it and how to do it we can get the USGA and their Green Section to get behind it too, at least as an alternative. They have never done that before but if we show them there's interest out there I see no real reason they won't get on board too---at least, as I said, as an alternative. That's the sense I got anyway from the conversation with Jim Snow. And I think that's very good news for prospect of firm and fast in our future.


Perhaps step one is to get the USGA to rename the GREEN section, and clubs to rename the GREEN committee! ;D
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RJ_Daley

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2006, 03:12:00 PM »
I'd love to say something intelligent about all of this, but TEP, Wayne and others pretty much covered all that I believe is the right approach to a conversion of conventional thinking that had mutated on the subject from the 50s-90s.  Now, advocates like TEP and his band, including super Scott, are on the right track to bring attitudes around.  

I do think that the process will be even more effective when you get golf commentators more up to speed on this matter, and if they would comment more often on the firm and fast - IMM being the better venue to identify the best players.  Some of the commentators do go into the subject a little.  Feherty, Finch, Mike Clayton, and others occasionally will mention when conditions like that are in the IMM mode.  But, not enough of them really emphasise it, and due to the wide audience, their influence on changing attitudes is very necessary to get JQ Public to start to conceptualise it better.

Don't forget that you have to overcome the influence of the "green" industry too.  Fert and related products have a full course press on at shows like the GCSAA to extol the virtues of lush and green is ideal.  They got plenty of money to promote this notion too...
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2006, 03:35:24 PM »
RJ,

The cool thing is, though, That a guy like me....a super at a low budget course, involved in GCSAA and serving as our local super's chapter president, can do things like what has been discussed here. I can then take vendors out on my course and tell them about the program. Most of them can't believe how little I do as far as water/ fertilizer/ pesticide. But, they know me well enough to know that I am being totally honest with them and that good conditions can be achieved for much less than they had hoped when the chose to visit me. I get to rub shoulders with all the "users" out there, and do a bit of evangelising. The desire has to overcome fear at some point, however.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2006, 03:50:17 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on January 07, 2006, 06:20:17 PM
To me, a golf course "through the green" is not firm and fast until and unless the golf ball off a tee shot, for instance, bounces and runs AT LEAST 50 yards.

And to me, greens are not firm until and unless greens do NOT allow even a really good player to suck a golf ball back after a well struck aerial shot even from the fairway. A light check of the ball afer a bounce or two but if the ball actually sucks back the greens aren't firm enough, in my opinion.

What this does in combination is put the aerial game and the ground game options in a form of balance or equilibrium. When you have that you have IDEAL playablity, in my opinion, and most courses, particularly the older ones just can't get more interesting, more thought provoking, more challenging, more fun or any better to play than that.

Tom

This is the second point I find myself in total agreement with yourself in less than a week.  A full moon must be on the rise.

Ciao

Sean
« Last Edit: January 08, 2006, 03:51:24 PM by Sean Arble »
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Tony_Muldoon

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2006, 05:17:54 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on January 07, 2006, 06:20:17 PM
To me, a golf course "through the green" is not firm and fast until and unless the golf ball off a tee shot, for instance, bounces and runs AT LEAST 50 yards.


Tom Paul

Do you think you might get some resistance from those who think the future of Golf is bleak because the ball now travels too far without adding extra rollout?  How can we sell the idea to them?
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2006, 05:26:04 PM »
Everyone blames TV, but what about the magazines?  When was the last time you saw a picture of a golf course in GOLF DIGEST or LINKS where it wasn't neon green?  Golf photographers don't even take pictures in those conditions ... I always kid Larry Lambrecht about it, because he rarely takes a picture of those Irish courses after a droughty summer, and if he does, he isn't including it in his calendar!

The problem with selling brown is that people are afraid you want it to be brown all the time.  The problem is that they want it green all the time, because they don't understand how unnatural and unhealthy that is.
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Paul_Turner

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2006, 07:45:55 PM »
This won't change those gussied up American parkland courses to change their ways :D  But a cool pic nervetheless with the ancient plough furrows giving the contrast

1st at Brancepeth Castle:



Not my pic  Either Johnny's,Mark's or Andy's?

« Last Edit: January 08, 2006, 08:05:53 PM by Paul_Turner »
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RJ_Daley

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2006, 11:35:18 AM »
Paul, I can almost envision a low stinger shot just cresting those brown wavy rolls.  Then as the ball meets the ground, sparks flying each time the ball skims those brown waves, finally loosing steam but rolling insight over the hump, then disappearing down between in the trough to reimerge in and out of sight a few more times...  looks like great fun... ;D
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JESII

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2006, 11:42:25 AM »
Quote from: Tony Muldoon on January 08, 2006, 05:17:54 PM
Quote from: TEPaul on January 07, 2006, 06:20:17 PM
To me, a golf course "through the green" is not firm and fast until and unless the golf ball off a tee shot, for instance, bounces and runs AT LEAST 50 yards.



Tom Paul

Do you think you might get some resistance from those who think the future of Golf is bleak because the ball now travels too far without adding extra rollout?  How can we sell the idea to them?

Not if the ball is running off line and into trouble, or into a position that leaves the player out of position to play well into the green. That's the secret, in those real firm conditions Tom speaks about the shorter shots are frequently more difficult than a longer one from better position.
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Jason Topp

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Re:Selling Brown, light green, tan, golden, non-lush etc...
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2006, 11:58:51 AM »
A photo gallery of the world's top courses might be a useful tool.  I apologize that these are not smaller.  My efforts to reduce do not seem to work.

New South Wales:



Sand Hills (perhaps a bit dark)



Royal Melbourne

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