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Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2005, 02:55:21 PM »
"if the USGA rolls back the technology these guys will still hit it farther than Jack and Arnie ever did..."

Craig:

If you actually believe this -- and since you've already advanced the argument that 99% of golfers aren't helped significantly by modern equipment -- then why would you be opposed to a rollback?

DW

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2005, 04:08:18 PM »
Craig --re your argument about "a new Augusta Nat":  but tradition is one of the greatest things about golf, seeing how this generation stacks up on the same course (s) as Jack and Ben etc..the quantum leap in length is making this harder and harder to do
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2005, 06:24:38 PM »
Daniel...I have said all along, though not in this thread, if the PGA and the USGA and the R&A want to have the pro's hit a different ball than you and me, that is fine.

However, that does not change my thinking that "how" a golf club reacts to a percieved problem brought on by technology is more important than anything the "governing" bodies for golf can do.

Paul...regarding tradition...it is vastly over rated in my opinion...I could care less how Tiger matches up against Ben Hogan on Augusta National...Tiger has better clothes, shoes,medicine,workout conditions,shorter fairway grass,a longer course,more trees,he travels by plane....etc...etc...opps...so much for comparing two eras...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2005, 08:16:19 PM »
Craig

>Lets get back to your original post and what you said to the USGA...older, classic courses are being made obsolete...

>Is that a bad thing?



Yes, it is.

For a great example, look at the game of tennis.  Technology ruined that sport.  It is doing the same to golf.

 :-[ :-[ :P
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2005, 08:29:06 PM »
Craig - of course you are entitled to your opinions, but I think many who love the game, like me,  love its traditions and history
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2005, 08:46:30 PM »
Craig:

I'm not referring to bifurcation.  I'm asking: Since you don't believe the distance gained (through equipment) by modern pros is as large as most of us do, and you don't believe that there has been any significant change for 99% of golfers, why would you oppose a USGA/R&A rollback????
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 08:47:35 PM by Daniel_Wexler »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2005, 10:00:26 PM »
I do not think a "roll back" is necessary for 99% of the golfers playing the game today. I think I speak for the vast majority of them when I say I love the new technology...golf balls go far and last longer without feeling like a rock. Mishits on my driver still feel good and fly straighter....who does not like that?

As for the tour level pro...I think the driving distances gained are a combination of better maintenance practices, stronger and better conditioned athletes, and lastly, technology.  All of this has led to a 10%-15% gain in average tour length over the last 15 years.

No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2005, 10:20:15 PM »
Craig

>.I think the driving distances gained are a combination of better maintenance practices, stronger and better conditioned athletes

I KNOW that Gary Player has a problem with this statement....


 :-[
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2005, 10:30:28 PM »
Craig:

So your answer actually IS that you like the technology because it artificially enhances your skills.  

But it's interesting because once upon a time the manufacturers clearly thought that everyone would think like you ("we're making the game more fun")....but the decline of players doesn't quite back that up...

Well, in any event, we've reached the end of the discussion because I will state the following opinion catagorically: I do NOT believe that we should be screwing up classic courses, jacking up the game's overall costs, sacrificing much of its history and tradition, minimizing shotmaking skills, etc. simply so that some relatively middling number of players can enjoy having their mis-hits "feel good and fly straighter."  It's an awfully lot to sacrifice just to boost a few egos...

BTW, I won't disagree regarding the value of a golf ball that lasts longer, just as I accept metal woods as being, economically speaking, a reasonable improvement over persimmon -- but I'm pretty sure that we can build that more durable ball without it having to fly so much farther.  But then that might take some of the fun out of it, right?

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2005, 10:32:32 PM »
By the way, which of today's players do you consider to be "stronger and better conditioned" than George Bayer??

Or, for that matter, Frank Stranahan?

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2005, 10:51:14 PM »
Daniel

>.I think the driving distances gained are a combination of better maintenance practices, stronger and better conditioned athletes


I'll answer this one for Craig.


Obviously, John Daly at 308.8 yards/drive, Kevin Stadler at 300.1, and Phil Mickelson at 300.0 come immediately to mind.


Even Tim Herron averages 292.9 yards per drive, Joey Sindelar at 287.9 and even Duffy Waldorf averages 282.9.  

All of these guys are really excellently conditioned 'athletes'  by any definition, and any one of them would have won the "Longest Driver on Tour" stat as recently as about 1982 with those numbers ........


So, to answer your question, it's NOT technology, it's obviously physical fitness that causes this increase in distance. ;)



 :-[ :P ::) :'(
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 10:52:57 PM by Paul Richards »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2005, 11:02:05 PM »
You are right, there are NO exceptions to the rule...

It is just as silly to claim today's athlete is no better conditioned than the athlete from 1970 as it is to lay the blame for all of golfs ills on the door of the USGA...

It is very clear that a lot of posters to this site are so mired in the past, so in love with the past, that they fail to see what is actually happening in the present.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2005, 11:09:52 PM »
Craig

> they fail to see what is actually happening in the present.


In the present, and in the recent past, the USGA has failed in its mission.

That is exactly what I see.

Glad you agree.

 ;) ;)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2005, 11:33:41 PM »
"that they fail to see what is actually happening in the present. "

This coming from a guy who claims not see a tie between unchecked technology and increased land costs???

That's PRICELESS!!

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2005, 01:07:11 AM »
And I'm still curious which of today's players you consider to be "stronger and better conditioned" than George Bayer...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2005, 03:52:13 AM »
Daniel

Who is the "we" you claim are screwing up classic courses?  I still fail to understand why I should be so concerned about clubs I am not a member of.  If those monkey boys want to waste time and money making their courses somehow more championship like, it is entirely up to them.  This is one of the main reasons I left the USGA.  I didn't feel they should be robbing me to help pay for rich guys to upgrade their courses.  Let the rich guys spend their own dough on muckin about.  It would be much easier to be gracious toward the old guard if they were gracious enough to let schmucks like me play their courses once in a while.

Do really think the game can remain static in order to keep a hand fulls of courses relevant to big time golf?  If the members of these clubs were smart, they would quietly slip into the eddies and happily become  part of the flotsom and jetsome of life.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

ForkaB

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #66 on: October 04, 2005, 04:03:08 AM »
Good one, Sean!

Those LA boys sometimes lose perspective on the realities of life.......

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #67 on: October 04, 2005, 06:46:49 AM »
"Who is the "we" you claim are screwing up classic courses?"

Sean:

I don't understand your question; I haven't made reference to anyone screwing up classic courses here...  ????

As far as the rest, I find your "if it doesn't directly effect me, why should I care?" attitude kind of sorry.  Do you not care about victims of natural disasters if they happen in a neighborhood other than yours?  People who are starving?  Victims of terrorism?  OBVIOUSLY golf is a million times less important than these things but the point is not dissimilar.  Unless, of course, you don't really care much about the game at all....but then what are you doing here?

As it happens, I largely agree with you regarding exclusivity of clubs -- though I'm not sure why you think that's limited to the "old guard."  Some of the most exclusive clubs I know of are among our most recent.  

I would also say that I don't see any connection between a discussion of the USGA's failure to govern equipment and your ability to play certain golf courses, but since you've pretty well stated that you only care about the things that directly effect you, I guess that would be sort of pointless.

By the way -- and I mean this quite seriously -- is there something beyond mere ego boosts that you see golf gaining through modern technology?

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #68 on: October 04, 2005, 07:19:50 AM »
Daniel

>By the way -- and I mean this quite seriously -- is there something beyond mere ego boosts that you see golf gaining through modern technology?


My answer is no.

The game costs more, takes more time, etc etc etc and the number of golfers has fallen.

Doesn't sound like a winning recipe to me.


FOR THE GOOD OF THE GAME.


What exactly does this mean these days????

 :-[ :P ::)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2005, 07:30:32 AM »
I have learned something here....a $4 ProV-1 is single handily responsible for: "rising land prices", a "supers cell phone bill", "cart paths", "deep rough", "5 hour rounds", "people quiting the game", "ruining the game", creating money grubbing golf whores,the demise of the walkable course, making classic courses "obsolete" and a "general decline of western civilization....

As Casey once said...Amazing!
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2005, 08:20:28 AM »

I was a member of the USGA for about 9 years, I quit 2 years ago because I felt like they were out of touch with the Joe Public golfer. And quite honestly what do any of them know about playing public golf courses other than Pebble etc. all the guys on the USGA are country club guys. Holding an occasionally Open on a public course does is a nice jesture, but in the end its meaningless.  

I do think the tour should build its own courses (8,000 yards of fun) and stay away from the classics, but that's up to the memberships of those courses.

And no I am not hitting the ball too far!!   :)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #71 on: October 04, 2005, 08:49:26 AM »
Daniel

Read your post #136.  You write of the royal "we".

You are confusing me.  You are accusing me of not caring about the game.  The evidence you use is that I am indifferent whether or not Riviera or Merion or whatever club is altered by their respective memberships.  I agree with you in that I don't think the memberships of these venerable clubs should mess around with their courses.  

True, we agree for different reasons.  You believe the game needs to remain as it was whenever (everybody's opinion differs as to which date we should reset our calenders to) these classic clubs were big players in big time golf without requiring modernization.  I believe that if the powers that be think Merion isn't tough enough to hold the US Open, then the members of Merion should quietly get on with the business of being proper stewards for one of the best courses in the world.  

The key in all this is that I don't have a vote in the matter.  So I am hardly going to get worked up over what the monkey boys out at whatever club choose to do with their course.  It doesn't matter to me whether or not the pros ever play decent courses.  I don't care how they earn their living.  Just as they don't care how I earn mine.  This doesn't matter to me.  

I don't claim that the old guard are the only ones guilty of not opening their cherished courses to the people who are actually the backbone of the game.  Perhaps this is our basic difference of opinion.  I don't think of professional golf as the backbone of the game.  To me, they are just a bunch of guys out there trying to make a living.  Not terribly important as far as the game goes.  Certainly not important enough to alter classic courses, but this is just my opinion.  As I say, I have no vote in the matter.  

This is not to say that I don't care about the game.  The game is not embodied in any club.  The game is embodied by golfers.  No club or championship is more important than myself or anyone having a friendly game with my (their) father.  The people side of the game is what I value.  Clubs and tournaments may come and go, but it takes people to play and pass the game on.

Daniel, I don't have a clue what we gain with technology.  I don't feel a need to answer the question.  I can play with or without a fancy ball and stick.  If the powers that be want to make changes to reduce distance, fine, sounds good.  If they want to keep the status quo, fine, sounds good.  What I don't want them to do is spend my money subsidizing rich people.  

Ciao

Sean


New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

T_MacWood

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2005, 09:58:32 AM »
“Lets get back to your original post and what you said to the USGA...older, classic courses are being made obsolete...Is that a bad thing? Nothing is permenent. We morn the passing of great ballparks, old buildings, etc...but we learn and move on... Are we not seeing "modern" classics being built to replace those courses that have lost their relevancy in light of modern equipment and todays golfer expectations? ”

Yes, it is a bad thing. And we do more than morn the passing of great buildings and move on. There is a very active conservation movement worldwide (and has been for over 100 years), that works to preserve and protect great works of architecture, monuments, gardens, historic districts, natural areas, art, etc.

Nothing is permanent, but that does not stop us from trying to preserve/protect these things for future generations to enjoy and study.  In fact many of those modern classics owe a great deal to the old courses that you would easily kick to the curb. Creating new works and preserving great old ones are not mutually exclusive.

This argument exemplifies the moral relativism that is pervasive today.

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2005, 01:42:59 PM »
Sean:

Ah ha!, I see it...but that's a totally generic "we" -- although I do know, 100% factually, of at least one club that the USGA has told that they must make certain design changes if they wish to be considered for a U.S. Open (the USGA will hotly deny this) so I suppose it's not entirely generic... :)

And obviously you care a good deal about the game or you wouldn't be here.

My point is that to simply say "if it doesn't effect me directly, I don't care" doesn't demonstrate that very much.  Of course you've got no reason to bleed if some club you'll never play makes a few changes; I wouldn't necessarily lose much sleep over that myself.  The point is that these things happen needlessly, partially because individual memberships don't know/don't care about what they have, but also because the USGA's abrogation of authority places those clubs in a difficult position (Hootie Johnson, I think, could write a book about that).  Of course you (or anyone) can say "But it's their decision.  Nobody's forcing them..."  And strictly speaking, in most cases that's true.  But to suggest that people will comfortably sit back and do nothing as something they love (and often have a $$$ interest in) becomes progressively obsolete is not a realistic assessment of human nature.

This is why I keep harping on the question of "What do we gain?"  To folks like Craig Sweet, the artificially enhanced ability to have his poorly struck shots "feel good and fly straighter" supercedes the entirety of the game's history, balance, challenge and uniqueness.  Thankfully -- and against the manufacturer's initial gamble -- not quite so many people covet the value of the ego boost as they initially hoped.

Truthfully, I don't think the game NEEDS to remain as it was in any particular period.  I just cannot fathom why we would allow it to change so drastically when there's no payoff (save for some boosted egos) in return.

A_Clay_Man

Re:USGA renewal notice
« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2005, 02:03:03 PM »


 It is too in-grained in modern man's nature, to want to achieve higher and higher levels, of a percieved perfection.

Whatever it is.

Constantly moving the bar up, is inherent in almost every pursuit, (even the restoration of architectural works, archaeological etc.) or, for the best scientists, it's new discoveries.

How does a rollback ever ocurr, with mindsets like ours (Human Beings)



This argument exemplifies the moral relativism that is pervasive today.


Tom, No one is stopping those who feel passionately about the "old game" from playing equiptment that is not cutting edge, are they?

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