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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2005, 03:33:52 PM »
In an earlier thread, my good friend Rihc Goodale spoke of noblessse oblige and Muirfield in the same breath. I can only choke on my gin and tonic and say "bulls**t."

If the bullying behaviour of Paddy Hamner and to a lesser degree a couple of his successors, is any indication of such a reservoir of egalitarianism, it is a peculiar way of showing it.

I would imagine you were the guest of a member and a recipient of the courtesies that would be normal in such circumstances. However, I have seen behaviour that bordered on crudeness, but they never forgot to grab the money.


Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2005, 03:48:57 PM »
There have been at least two instances in Northern California where private clubs built within the past 10 or so years were required to offer public access to their golf course in return for getting permit approvals to build their courses.

As a result, Granite Bay (east of Sacramento) is open for public play on Mondays. Cordevalle (a VERY high-end club south of San Jose) is also required to offer public access, but there has been some debate over how often and a what price public access will be made available.  

Although I am not sure, my guess is these clubs are operating as for-profit enterprises and are not membership owned.

David -  

I believe that it is Boulder Ridge in San Jose that was required to offer public access, at $ 300 a round.

Cordevalle's business plan went south when the Silicon Valley net worth went south ...

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

johnk

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2005, 07:10:41 PM »
The "rambling" thing can lead to some great moments.  At Royal St. George's (a rather private club for the UK),  you get all sorts of folks and their dogs making their way thru the hay, across the course to the beach.

Once on the ninth hole at R St. G, a very scraggly, hirsute giant of a man in a kilt (think Hagrid from the Harry Potter movies) ambled right across my line of play, completely oblivious to the presence of golfers...  I truly felt that I was imposing on his rambling that day... :)

Of course, nothing, but NOTHING compares to the right-of-way problems you have at Painswick!  "Let's take the dogs and have picnic up in that park by the old Roman road..."

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2005, 07:15:13 PM »
"....what I said is that it was relatively easy for a member of any club to play virutually any other club in the country (including courses like Pine Valley, Shinnecock and Brookline). That is no longer the case."

Tom MacW:

In my life I've certainly never known that to be true either. I don't know who Pond or Merrill were but I have heard of various people becoming dedicated to getting around to playing many many courses and certainly some of the most private and exclusive ones in the country. That's still true today. Occasionally you hear about that type of thing as a bit of a mission. But that's a far far cry from saying it was relatively easy for any member of any club in the country to play any other club in the country. That simply was never the case---not even close. I can guarantee you that it was never easy playing Shinnecock, Pine Valley or Brookline simply because anyone was a member of some other golf club in this country! ;)  Non-members who played various golf courses did it 50 years ago about the same way they do now---they know a member or arrange to have someone who does know one have that member sponsor them as a guest. Often PGA of America members are slightly different. Pros often take care of other pros at their clubs.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 07:34:30 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2005, 07:27:59 PM »
"Cypress Point one of the most private of private clubs today, in fact did let the public play (unaccompanied), as long as you were a guest of the Del Monte Lodge."

Once upon a time that certainly would've made perfect sense since Samuel Morse owned the Del Monte Lodge and the Del Monte Corporation.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2005, 07:42:35 PM »

Paul Turner:

You (and Rich) keep saying that the system in Europe is better. Better for whom? It may be better for golfers who want access to play private clubs but I don't think the way it's done in Europe is better than America for the member of a private club.

No, it's better for the private members too.  If you're a member of a private, but ordinary, golf club here in the US, it's still very difficult to play the famous courses.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2005, 07:44:45 PM »
Rich:

There's an independent accountant by the name of Joe Hilger who's been to almost every one of our board meetings for as long as I can remember. I once asked Joe how many board meetings he goes to and he said he goes to a remarkable number of board meetings of Golf Association of Philadelphia member clubs. Next time I see Joe Hilger I'll be sure to ask him the significance and cost savings of conforming to some of these rules and regulations and statutes that a "private" status golf club needs to conform to. But one thing I can assure you of---it's not the same over here as it is over there and I doubt it ever will be.   ;)

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2005, 07:52:14 PM »
Paul:

It's not easy for members of famous private clubs here to play other famous private clubs unless they happen to know someone at other famous private clubs (although obviously it may be a bit easier getting to know someone at a famous private club if you belong to some other famous private club! ;) . If you know someone at any famous private club it basically doesn't matter who you are or if you even belong to a golf club, you likely be able to play any place. I guess that's just the way the world works.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 07:54:30 PM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2005, 08:03:20 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Ralph Kennedy, a founder member of Winged Foot, played 3,165 different golf courses in 43 years--almost 74 new courses a year!  He played in thirteen countries and 48 states.  His 3,000th course was the Old Course at St. Andrews.  Kennedy wrote an article in the July 1952 National Geographic to commemorate his accomplishment.  In 1933, Kennedy played 8 courses in 2 days in Bermuda and in 1934 he played 21 courses in 7 days in Chicago.  The next year he played 31 courses in 9 days on a trip to Maine, averaging 87.

He dontated the entire scorecard collection to the USGA.  If anyone is interested in researching scorecards from the 30s and 40s, they should contact the USGA.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 08:04:47 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2005, 09:44:53 PM »
Paul Turner,

Allowing unaccompanied visitors to play a golf course, especially visitors not sponsored by a member, would be like putting a gun to the club's head, spinning the cylinder and pulling the trigger, with five bullets in the chamber.

Things are different in the UK because the legal climate in the UK is different.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2005, 10:04:57 PM »
Wayne,
8 courses in Bermuda in 1933? I'd sure like to see the list.

One of the greatest fears of a private club, especially in areas that are abnormally litigious (I certainly live in one) is to be declared a public accommodation. The baggage that entails is enough to make most clubs very circumspect on allowing outside play except under very controlled circumstances.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2005, 10:21:18 PM »
Tom Paul,

You and others have addressed the question of whether the European system is "better" than the American.

While I belong to a private club here in the States and have no problem with the concept, I must admit enjoying the European approach better basically because there is a greater sense of caring for the game..... expressed by the  welcoming of visitors.

A few years back I was standing in the lobby at Ballybunion and in walked a gentleman looking a bit lost and frustrated.He had hoped to meet Jim McKenna, the Club Secretary, and gain access to the course.

No problem, I told him. I would be happy to show him around.......and in a very Ballybunion like fashion treated him as my guest for the next several hours.

It turns out this gentleman worked as a greenskeeper at Royal Melbourne Golf Club......and, to make a long story short, he was gracious enough to return the favor for me back in December while I was in Melbourne for the Renaissance Cup.

Somehow welcoming visitors seems quite natural across the pond and it is a real joy, I've found.

But, could it be done here?

I'm not so sure. Hell, I know members at Pine Valley who complain how difficult getting a tee time can be!

Tim Weiman

ForkaB

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2005, 04:04:56 AM »
In an earlier thread, my good friend Rihc Goodale spoke of noblessse oblige and Muirfield in the same breath. I can only choke on my gin and tonic and say "bulls**t."

If the bullying behaviour of Paddy Hamner and to a lesser degree a couple of his successors, is any indication of such a reservoir of egalitarianism, it is a peculiar way of showing it.

I would imagine you were the guest of a member and a recipient of the courtesies that would be normal in such circumstances. However, I have seen behaviour that bordered on crudeness, but they never forgot to grab the money.



Bob

What exactly did Paddy do to you to make you so bitter :o.  He was always a pussycat (albeit an eccentric one) with me.

PS--speaking of gins and tonics and Muirfield, don't you love their water cooler full of gin with the skull and crossbones on it?!

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2005, 05:35:02 AM »
Tim Weiman:

I've never claimed golf is better in Europe or America (for access to private clubs for a visitor). I only asked Paul Turner when he claimed it was better in Europe who it was better for, the visitor or the member? I certainly agree, it is much easier for a visitor to play private courses in Europe--or at least that's been my limited experience. All I've mentioned on here is I doubt America will ever try to do over here that way what they do over there and the reasons why. And I've also mentioned some of the reasons why they do it the way they do over there. Those reasons were not my observations they were those of a few people who run some pretty famous clubs over there. Rich and Paul portray the way they do it over there, particularly in the more famous clubs as an example of European golf egalitarianism. It may be or appear to be but its much more than that---at least according to people at some of the clubs I visited (Portrush, RCD and Muirfield), and I figure they probably know better why they do things the way they do regarding visitors than do Rich Goodale and Paul Turner. But Rich tells me that no they probably don't know as well as he does why they do those things at those clubs!  ;)  

Tom MacW:

If your Dad was a professor and in Boston, New York or Philadelphia and in town for a symposium with a group of professors in that symposium I can certainly see them being able to play some good courses. It probably had everything to do with the symposium and the connections established through it just as I'm sure it would be today. My Dad played all over the country too but it was because he knew people in other clubs from all over the country (he played a ton of national tournament golf and just knew a lot of people in golf all over the place). But those things are just connections and its no different today. For you to say that any member of a club in America could quite easily play any other club in America back in the 1950s or at any other time before around 1960 is just not a true or accurate statement. There are still people today who make a dedicted effort to play numerous courses and do play them, like Pond and Merrill apparently did back in the 1950s. However, Pond and Merrill I'm sure did not represent a policy of reciprocity at those clubs for every member of every club being able to easily play any other club. This seems like another instance of you taking some specific examples, of which there always will be some and trying to portray it as a generality or general policy at golf clubs across America. Private golf clubs in America were no less private at any time than they are today. Frankly, all one really has to do to tell is look at their bylaws and operating policies at any particular time.


ForkaB

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2005, 06:00:17 AM »
It may be or appear to be but its much more than that---at least according to people at some of the clubs I visited (Portrush, RCD and Muirfield), and I figure they probably know better why they do things the way they do regarding visitors than do Rich Goodale and Paul Turner. But Rich tells me that no they probably don't know as well as he does why they do those things at those clubs!  ;)  


Tom

Lest you forget, I am a long time member of one of "those clubs" and also have many long term friendships with long time members of many other of "those clubs."

I'm sure you will agree that your experience in these matters is both narrow and shallow and recent.  Please do not embarrass yourself any further by trying to make generalisations from such limited knowledge.

Thanks.

Rich :)

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2005, 06:29:21 AM »
I'm sorry Rich, but if one plays those courses mentioned a few times with the people from them that I did and has the types of conversations I did with them I think I'd tend to take what they said to me on this very subject seriously, particularly as each club basically said the same thing. At each of those Irish clubs it involved a two day team competition each complete with lunches and dinners together. The day at Muirfield was every bit as edifying a conversation on this subject and I remain in touch with those I got to know at those clubs. Some of those people run those clubs and a few of them have run a lot more than that. I'm sorry if what they said somehow upsets your egalitarian naivete about some of the reasons it's the way it is over there. Maybe you do have some connection to one of those clubs and maybe you have friends in some of them but I tend to take those conversations seriously since they were by no means short and incidental ones. I tend to think that those people who run those clubs know precisely what they're talking about and I find your attempt to tell me they were all kidding about what they said, and independent of each other, a little bit more than laughable. Sorry Pal but your jingoism towards things American and that all things in  European golf are ideal and should be transported to America just ain't working and it never will. I'm very glad for European golf they do things the way they do--it obviously works fine for them but it's not going to happen the same way in America and the reasons are numerous and understandable. Frankly, I think it's just fine that golf works differently at clubs around the world. The only things that really should be unified around the world, in my opinion, are the I&B and playing rules of the game and the handicap procedures. For the rest, cultural differences are not a bad thing at all, in my opinion. If cultural practices were the same all over the world ultimately it would probably just induce golfers from around the world to stay at home. In some things differences are good---and two of those things, in my opinion, are differing types and styles of architecture around the world and cultural practices at golf clubs around the world.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 06:38:59 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2005, 07:11:11 AM »
Tom:

Your Dad playing golf with his friends at a different club in Cincinatti each day is certainly understandable and so is the fact he may've played courses like Brookline, PVGC and Shinnecock if he was with a group of professors at a symposium in those cities. That type of thing is basically good old fashioned "connections". Do you really suppose your Dad could simply call up a Brookline, Shinnecock and PVGC if he knew noone at those clubs and say he was from OSU and that he would be there on a particular day and be allowed to play those courses just for that reason? If you think that you are misreading and not understanding the way it's always been.

For you to take those isolated examples you gave (which certainly go on today) and generalize it into the fact that any member of any club in America had easy access to any other club in America back then simply because he wanted it without knowing someone at those clubs, you just have the history of the way it was very wrong.

I'm not sure why it is that you sometimes tend to take a specific and try to generalize it the way you sometimes do. This to me is no different than your A&C conclusion that Hutchinson should be considered the father of golf architecture or that the Golden Age of architecture should be more appropriately considered "Arts and Crafts" architecture. You gave voluminous lead-ins of the life and times of various people and then attempt to take those few specific examples and make some connection that they prove some large generality. I don't see that at all---it's just not historically supportable in the slightest.

The same seems to be true with this statement you made that it was easy some decades ago for a member of any club to play any other club because of some understood policy of reciprocity at private golf clubs around the country. I know that was just not the case---despite Pond and Merrill's isolated exploits.

That kind of thing is nothing more than a dedicated attempt at arrangement, and examples like that are certainly possible today, and not some universal American modus of private club reciprocity once upon a time.

Frankly, these types of things are just not some cultural change of anti-egalitarianism in the last few decades as some on here are trying to make it (although recent increasingly stringent "privacy" status laws, regulations and statutes certainly have something to do with it). It's nothing much more than practicality. Private golf clubs are generally 18 holes and the use of private 18 hole golf courses are first and foremost for the enjoyment and convenience of the membership of private clubs. The degree to which that membership convenience allows the club to let others play their courses is really what this is about. Members of any private club are not about to compromise the amount of times they'd prefer to play their own course so the club can let others who are not members play their course.

If membership RPY are low at any golf course access to that course may inherently be easier. But if membership RPY is high and the membership itself is compacting the course access to others is just going to be limited.

Why would anyone think it would be otherwise in any era?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 07:17:47 AM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2005, 07:12:43 AM »
I'm sorry Rich, but if one plays those courses mentioned a few times with the people from them that I did and has the types of conversations I did with them I think I'd tend to take what they said to me on this very subject seriously, particularly as each club basically said the same thing. At each of those Irish clubs it involved a two day team competition each complete with lunches and dinners together. The day at Muirfield was every bit as edifying a conversation on this subject and I remain in touch with those I got to know at those clubs. Some of those people run those clubs and a few of them have run a lot more than that. I'm sorry if what they said somehow upsets your egalitarian naivete about some of the reasons it's the way it is over there. Maybe you do have some connection to one of those clubs and maybe you have friends in some of them but I tend to take those conversations seriously since they were by no means short and incidental ones. I tend to think that those people who run those clubs know precisely what they're talking about and I find your attempt to tell me they were all kidding about what they said, and independent of each other, a little bit more than laughable. Sorry Pal but your jingoism towards things American and that all things in  European golf are ideal and should be transported to America just ain't working and it never will. I'm very glad for European golf they do things the way they do--it obviously works fine for them but it's not going to happen the same way in America and the reasons are numerous and understandable. Frankly, I think it's just fine that golf works differently at clubs around the world. The only things that really should be unified around the world, in my opinion, are the I&B and playing rules of the game and the handicap procedures. For the rest, cultural differences are not a bad thing at all, in my opinion. If cultural practices were the same all over the world ultimately it would probably just induce golfers from around the world to stay at home. In some things differences are good---and two of those things, in my opinion, are differing types and styles of architecture around the world and cultural practices at golf clubs around the world.

Tom

You still don't get it (IMNSHO, of course), but dream on, buddy!  Now, let's get back to the topic at hand, please..... ;)

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2005, 07:21:13 AM »
It's not about "getting it" Rich---it's simply the truth. Again, sorry to burst your egalitarian naivete regarding what's behind easier visitor access to most European golf clubs. It's all about money---the thing that sort of makes the world go 'round! Not that you'd be aware of that either, though.  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2005, 07:35:44 AM »
The easiest way to understand this rather simple reality Rich is the intial answer given to me (before getting into the entire subject) by the man that ran RCD. I asked him how much visitor play the club did RPY. He said they really didn't look at it that way. The way they did it was to set an annual financial goal in that area and once it was reached that was it for the year. I said you mean it's just economic? And he said, of course it is. That question of mine was prompted by the most obnoxious group of Americans in the group immediately ahead of us (all from Las Vegas, of all places ;) )who were holding us up all day for which this man who ran the club constantly apologized for.

The man who ran the club didn't even seem to care to mention their slow play to them although I had a mind to when the round was over. As I was about to enter the clubhouse the most obnoxious of that group came bursting out of the clubhouse screaming at the top of his lungs over and over; "Those f...ing terrorists just hit NYC!"

And that's the first I learned of the significance of 9/11/2001. But even that did not stop me from telling that guy to shut up because he had been and was acting like a total asshole!  ;)

ForkaB

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2005, 07:53:28 AM »
Tom

When one starts repeating oneself and begins to get hysterical it is usally a very good sign that he has lost the argument.  If I were you, I'd go on to another topic (and there are many of them) where you have more knowledge and/or insight. ;)

Have a nice day!

Rich

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2005, 08:05:39 AM »
Rich:

I must say it is amusing to me how some of you on here claim I'm getting hysterical whenever I expose the inaccuracies of some of the things some of you say on here.  ;)

About this subject of European clubs and why they do the things they do regarding visitors you are simply wrong or incredibly naive and I'm sure you know that. I'm just exposing some of the fallacies of your constant transparent attempts to paint all things European golf to be superior to golf elsewhere. What's transparently hysterical is you claiming that you know more about why some of those clubs do the things they do than those who run those clubs. It's not me who's claiming to know more than you do about those clubs---it's those people who run those clubs who know more about them than you do! It appears to be more than a little upsetting to you that I happened to ask a number of them about these things and that they bothered to answer me the way they did!  ;)

But you're right, the truth has been told and it's probably time to go onto something else.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 08:12:45 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2005, 08:57:43 AM »
Tom:

I'm 60 so I was born in 1944. I was never particularly interested in golf until I was about 35 but it was pretty hard to miss if one was a member of my family. Golf was my father's entire life in one way or another and the fact that he belonged to about 10 pretty interesting golf clubs up and down the east coast and never gave up one of them until he was really old gave me pretty good insight into what clubs and golf was all about. If I was to tell you who he knew in golf and knew well you'd be amazed. To me it didn't mean much when I was young because I didn't know any different but it certainly did give me a good insight into the way things were back then and throughout. How much of an insight I realize more of every day. And in the last twenty years I too have been pretty heavily involved in golf and golf administration of one kind or another and through that, particularly looking back now, it's pretty amazing who all one gets to know that way. Golf in some sense, in that community is pretty small and pretty tight.

I'm sorry to change the subject on you (to the A&C Movement) but I did it because I feel it's an excellent analogy to the statements and conclusion you made on here about how easy it was some decades ago to play any course if you were a member of any club in America. That is simply not the case no matter you pointing to examples of your Dad or Pond and Merrill. Those are just isolated examples that I certainly agree were true then as others like them are true today. It's all basically just a matter of who one knew back then as it is who one knows today. But you just can't accurately use isolated examples like that to conclude what you have on this thread about the way it was back then vs today enough to make the statement you did. You can make that statement, of course, but it simply isn't true or historically accurate or representative.

And I feel the same way about your conclusions regarding the impact or significance on golf architecture of the "Arts and Crafts" Movement. The A&C movement certainly did exist, and is a sense it certainly was far-flung and regional and it was a very interesting movement indeed in all kinds of ways. It's just that it never had the kind of impact on golf architecture to the extent that a man like Hutchinson could even remotely accurately be called or considered the Father of Golf Architecture or that the Golden Age should accurately be called or considered "Arts and Crafts" architecture.

These are two conclusions you made in your otherwise very interesting essays on the subject of the "Arts and Crafts" Movement. I liked your five part essay very much---it's just that those two conclusions you made are not even remotely accurate, in my opinion, and I don't think they should be in the opinion of others either.

I've only tried to point that out on here. You, like Rich, can continue to call me hysterical or one who constantly changes the subject or whatever else you want to say about me for bringing these things up but what you should do is attempt to defend your conclusions in the face of questions and evidence contrary to your conclusions and that you really aren't doing---not the least reason for which---you can't. Ultimately, those two conclusions about the A&C movement and your conclusion about golf reciprocity some decades ago just aren't historically supportable and it's just not possible to make them so.

Of course, you also know I felt you (and certainly Paul Turner) were attempting to make or imply some historically inaccurate conclusions about Crump and his glorification which thereby inaccurately maximized his part in the creation of PV and minimized Colt's part in the creation of PVGC, but thankfully in your very good article on the life of George Crump you appeared to give up that point and conclusion to a large extent--and perhaps the reason you did has something to do with the dialogue and discussion about the subject on this website that preceded the writing and releasing of your article. And that I was glad to see because I believe your final product is a far more accurate depiction of the truth of the creation of PVGC---although thankfully that was not exactly the point of your article on George Crump.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 09:14:40 AM by TEPaul »

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2005, 09:07:01 AM »
Tom Paul:

You and Rich are having a nice ding-dong about the motivations for clubs on this side of the water being more open than in the US.

For the purpose of argument, let's just assume you are right.

The fact remains, however, that no matter the motivations, there is a very marked "aysmmetry" of outcomes, inasmuch as the US golfer who wants to play the marquee courses around the world - not just Europe - can pretty much do so, but the reverse is not true.

Given that many members of top US courses are the sort of people who would have travelled abroad to play golf, and hence would have benefited from this asymmetry, surely a part of them would like the process to be a bit more equitable/reciprocal?

And isn't there a further argument for these clubs to consider: they are not just private clubs, they are the trustees to priceless assets of public interest and significance. Don't you think it is incumbent on people in these positions to see whether they can't find ways to do justice to the responsibilities which come with the privileges they enjoy?

And before you ask, it is at least 20 years since I have been accused of egalitarian naievete! Maybe naive, but hardly egalitarian.  :)

T_MacWood

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2005, 09:17:13 AM »
"It's just that it never had the kind of impact on golf architecture..."

TE
You are entitled to your opinion, but I know several who disagree with you...including Ran Morrissett, Geoff Shackelford, Rand Jerris and myself.

Up to this point, you've not exhibited a grasp or understanding of the movement and its influences upon British society and tastes, nor an understanding of early British golf architecture beyond what you have read in Cornish and Whitten...which hurts you attempts prove the movements lack of impact IMO.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 09:26:35 AM by Tom MacWood »

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