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TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #475 on: December 28, 2005, 04:01:18 PM »
"However, you do not seem to be able to bring any actual evidence to the table to refute his proposition as to the link between the A&C movement and golf course design. As it seems that the direct evidence of a link is lacking in the first instance - I believe Tom Mac has drawn his conclusion through other means than direct evidence of linkage - then you are trying to disprove his conclusion with contrary evidence to his lack of evidence in the first place! I don't think this contrary evidence exists either. Is a golf course architect from the 20's going to write that he wasn't infuenced by the A&C movement? More likely that he might list some of his influences rather than those that did not influence him. So I feel any search for contrary evidence may well be fruitless."

Neil:

If I do not think something existed in the first place I certainly am not going to try to produce evidence to show it didn't exist such as quotations from '20s architects that the "Arts and Craft" movement was NOT an influence on them. Obviously that would be a preposterous thing to try to do, not to mention impossible for perfectly obvious and logical reasons.

To challenge someone such as Tom MacWood to produce evidence that architects of that time mentioned the A/C movement as an influence on them is one way to BEGIN to disprove his thesis.

I've already done that a number of times. His response has either been that the Arts and Crafts Movement didn't really have a name so those architects of the Golden Age who he claims were so influenced by it were not able to mention it by name. He's even gone so far as to say that the A/C movement wasn't even a philosophy, it was an "approach"! ;)  Or he's said they may not have known at the time that they were being so influenced by it.  Neil, as I'm sure you can appreciate responses like that wear thin very quickly as they are not in the slightest cogent or logical or persuasive, in my opinion.

Perhaps the A/C Movement wasn't well known by that name even in the 1920s (when was it known by that name then? ;) ) but certainly William Morris and John Ruskin had names and I don't see that either of them was EVER menitoned by a golf course architect of that era as an influence on his art.

A few of them did meniton Repton, however, and that is interesting as to how a few of them viewed the "principles" of English landscape architecture (as outlined by Repton) as influencing some of their thinking regarding golf course architecture. But as I said above Reption died about half a century before the A/C Movement even began so there's no chance any of the golf architects who mentioned him felt the A/C movement influenced him and them through him.

I feel another adequate way of disproving his thesis is to point out the things the architects of that time DID say influenced them. I've pointed that out to Tom MacWood too and his reponse to that was much of the same as the reason he gave that they may not have mentioned the A/C movement---eg they may not have been aware during their time what was influencing them. That's even less logical to me and less cogent and persuasive.


"I believe Tom Mac has drawn his conclusion through other means than direct evidence of linkage ."

Neil:

What other means do you think he used to draw his conclusion if not through direct evidence? I believe I will write a rebuttal one of these days but in the meantime perhaps I'll just list a few of the premises he gives to see if they're able to stand on their own as factual.
 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 04:22:52 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #476 on: December 28, 2005, 04:58:42 PM »
Is a golf course architect from the 20's going to write that he wasn't infuenced by the A&C movement? More likely that he might list some of his influences rather than those that did not influence him.

They did write about their influences, or at least some of them did.   And for some, the influences seem to be the same as for the Arts and Crafts Landscape Architects.  

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #477 on: December 28, 2005, 05:14:18 PM »

Tony
Do you consider garden's exterior living? Is the art of gardening work or leisure?

Tom I'm not sure this is going to help take things further but I feel I should declare an interest here. www.enterpriseplants.com  On my passport it says Director but it should probably say businessman/gardener so this is close to my heart.

However for the purposes of this debate I think it's a real stretch to compare domestic gardening (or my own work in office gardening, we call it "improving the working environment" - has an A&C ring to it wouldn't you say?) with  the creation of parks and golf courses for people to enjoy in their leisure time.  

Golf course Architects are professionals but what were the Colt's etc. thinking when they created courses for others to enjoy.   How much influence did the philosphy behind the A&C tiems influence them.  If not directly then indirectly.

I'm only asking because I'm lazy, I can't find the books I once owned and I've pile of other things to read before I get the time to go back to researching  them.   Good luck, I think it's a fascinating topic that I'm please you've brought to GCA, but as I said many pages ago rather than socratic debate leading us forward we seem to getting stuck on either side of an argument.  IMHO.
Let's make GCA grate again!

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #478 on: December 28, 2005, 05:40:50 PM »

Perhaps the A/C Movement wasn't well known by that name even in the 1920s (when was it known by that name then? ;) ) but certainly William Morris and John Ruskin had names and I don't see that either of them was EVER menitoned by a golf course architect of that era as an influence on his art.


“If John Ruskin, always a jealous guardian of the beauties of nature, could have been taken to the site of a proposed golf course, especially an inland one, and again after the golf architect had brought his artistic skill to bear upon it, I venture to say he would been wonderfully impressed by the results.”  ~~JH. Taylor

“If you look here, there, and everywhere you will hardly rest your eye on an object created since the day of Morris, which is at all worth resting it upon, that does not owe something, and very often the most important thing about it, to his genius. I say this, with full realization that it is saying a great deal. I do not believe that it is saying too much . . . But, apart from this or that form and colour that Morris has given for eyes to dwell on round about us, it is a bigger gift than this, a gift not of details but a general point of view . . . the appreciation that there is actually beauty which can make a difference in our lives. It is an appreciation which we know quite well to have been hid from the eyes of very many of our forefathers.”  ~~Horace Hutchinson

“The point was emphasised by Ruskin many years ago that the demand for perfection was invariably a ‘sign of a misunderstanding of the ends of art’….he even went as far as to lay down the seeming paradox that ‘a work of man cannot be good unless it is imperfect.’ This application of this principle does not imply that all imperfect golf courses are necessarily admirable; but it does suggest that in the absence, fortunately, of any existing course that confounds criticism, some imperfect courses are amongst the most interesting and amusing to play over.”  ~~Newton Wethered and Tom Simpson

No only were they mentioned, more importantly their ideas and philosphies were mirrored by the golf architects of that time. And there is good reason for that...those ideas and philosphies dominated aesthetic thought throughout society, they touched all forms of art, craft and design.

Tony
What point are you trying to make?

Enjoying a garden is a leisure activity....designing a garden is not.

Enjoying a meal or a drink in a cafe is a leisure activity...designing a cafe is not.

Playing cards in a club or a clubhouse is a leisure activity....designing a clubhouse is not.

Playing golf is a leisure activity...designing a golf course is not.

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #479 on: December 28, 2005, 06:48:52 PM »
"“If John Ruskin, always a jealous guardian of the beauties of nature, could have been taken to the site of a proposed golf course, especially an inland one, and again after the golf architect had brought his artistic skill to bear upon it, I venture to say he would been wonderfully impressed by the results.”  ~~JH. Taylor"

That sounds to me as much like Taylor felt golf course architecture would've been an influence on Ruskin (had he seen a good and natural one) as the other way around.

“If you look here, there, and everywhere you will hardly rest your eye on an object created since the day of Morris, which is at all worth resting it upon, that does not owe something, and very often the most important thing about it, to his genius. I say this, with full realization that it is saying a great deal. I do not believe that it is saying too much . . . But, apart from this or that form and colour that Morris has given for eyes to dwell on round about us, it is a bigger gift than this, a gift not of details but a general point of view . . . the appreciation that there is actually beauty which can make a difference in our lives. It is an appreciation which we know quite well to have been hid from the eyes of very many of our forefathers.”  ~~Horace Hutchinson"

'....you will hardly rest your eye on an object.." Is a golf course an "object"? Hutchinson is probably talking about decrorative objects which would make sense since that was what Morris and the A/C Movement was primarily known for. Where is there anything about golf architecture in that statement? Hutchinson did write about golf but I'm sure he was probably just as capable of remarking about other things that did not have to do with golf or golf architecture and being quoted for it.

“The point was emphasised by Ruskin many years ago that the demand for perfection was invariably a ‘sign of a misunderstanding of the ends of art’….he even went as far as to lay down the seeming paradox that ‘a work of man cannot be good unless it is imperfect.’ This application of this principle does not imply that all imperfect golf courses are necessarily admirable; but it does suggest that in the absence, fortunately, of any existing course that confounds criticism, some imperfect courses are amongst the most interesting and amusing to play over.”  ~~Newton Wethered and Tom Simpson"

Finally, a quotation that mentions one of these men in the same paragraph as golf course architecture. That quotation by Simpson and Wethered makes an excellent point about "imperfection" in art. It also seems to be making a point more about the nature of criticism or controversy in golf course architecture (for imperfections). That one's an interesting quotation but hardly enough to establish the "Arts and Crafts" movement as a primary or even significant influence on the Golden Age of golf course architecture.

"No only were they mentioned, more importantly their ideas and philosphies were mirrored by the golf architects of that time. And there is good reason for that...those ideas and philosphies dominated aesthetic thought throughout society, they touched all forms of art, craft and design."

Tom:

Mirrored? I think you're going to have to come to grips with the fact that there were a lot of things going on during the Victorian era as there are during any era that may be similar but nevertheless not interconncected or at least not to the extent that one can accurately assign as a primary influence the one on the other.

The reversion to the "naturalness" of the linksland around the turn of the century following that era known as the "Dark Ages" of golf architecture was motivated by and influenced by a number of things to do with the incipient state of golf architecture at that time. This basic historical fact of the evolution of golf course architecture has been chronicled many times by many people, including most of the good golf architects of the Golden Age who spoke or wrote about the Scottish linksland, partiuclarly TOC as the primary influence on the development of natualism in golf architecture and the architecture of the Golden Age.

"And there is good reason for that...those ideas and philosphies dominated aesthetic thought throughout society, they touched all forms of art, craft and design."

That you constantly make that kind of statement about the influence of the A/C Movement in such a universal way on so many aspects of society only tells me that you've become completely confused by perhaps what was at some point mentioned as the ultimate goal of the A/C Movement and Morris and what the movement, philosophy, approach, or whatever you want to call it actually accomplished.

As with all "movements" there's a huge difference between the goal of that movement and the ultimate goals of its proponents for their "movement" and what that movement actually accomplishes, historically or otherwise. Obviously, in your total fixation with the influence and importance of the Arts and Crafts Movement historically and otherwise you've totally overlooked that fact.

The next thing we know when it comes to any reversion to an interest in naturalism in anything you'll be trying to assign the primary influence for it to the Arts and Crafts Movement.  :)

I admire your curiosity, Tom, but neither art nor Life really works that way.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 07:14:22 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #480 on: December 28, 2005, 08:00:36 PM »
TE
It is really quite simple. If you accept that the aesthetic principles of the A&C movement (Ruskin and Morris) were predominant (at the time) with in middle-class Great Britain, in particular middle-class London, in particular the suburbs surrounding London. A commonly accepted fact by most art historians.

It is only logical that those same priniples would find there way into golf architecture, especially in and around London and especially considering golf architecture had drifted so far away from its roots, in both an aesthetic and golfing sense.

It is no coincidence that the courses that turned the tide: the Huntercombes, Wokings, Walton Heaths, Sunningdales, Worpelsdons, Prince's, Stoke Poges, were developed, planned and designed by and for these same well-educated, successful professional, suburban refugees, who were also building and furnishing their homes and gardens with aesthetics and objects inspired by Ruskin, Morris and their desciples.

You add to the equation the most influencial figure of Horace Hutchinson. Who was not only direct connection between the art world and the golf world...he was also the first to produce a book (photo essay) highlighting the great courses of the day, the first to produce a book devoted to golf design, and the first to write critically about the art of golf architecture.

To think that the golf architects of the heathland era were trapped inside of some kind of golfing vacuum, completely oblivious and unaffected by the world they lived in, is rediculous.

This has been today's Arts and Crafts moment.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 08:45:04 PM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #481 on: December 28, 2005, 08:45:01 PM »
Tom Mac,

Like many others, I have found this entire discussion highly educational and entertaining. Not knowing that much about the A&C movement and its effects on society in any way, I have learned a lot from all who've contributed to this thread.

Unfortunately I must take exception to your last posting where you wrote, "It is really quite simple. If you accept that (at the time) the aesthetic principles of the A&C movement (Ruskin and Morris) were predominant with in middle-class Great Britain, in particular middle-class London, in particular the suburbs surrounding London. A commonly accepted fact by most art historians.

It is only logical that those same priniples would find there way into golf architecture, especially in and around London and especially considering golf architecture had drifted so far away from its roots, in both an aesthetic and golfing sense...
 
To think that the golf architects of the heathland era were trapped inside of some kind of golfing vacuum, completely oblivious and unaffected by the world they lived in is rediculous."

The problem I have is NOT one of disagreeing with your premise; to the contrary, I can see the logic in it. Ny problem is one of consistancy.

On other threads where you disagree with a conclusion drawn, you always demand that absolute proof be shown, otherwise the conclusion must be incorrect. An example of this is when I maintained that Old Tom Morris greatly influenced Tilly toward golf course design based upon strong circumstantial evidence you took me to task stating and challenging me, in effect, to provide the absolute docum,entation of his discussions about golf course architecture, yet in the above statement of your conclusions about the effects of the A&C movement on golf architecture, you blatantly state something as factual based upon nothing more than an obvious conslusionary conjecture (there's a heck of a phrase ;D).

Now I have no problem in saying that we can have an honest disagreement in conclusion about Tilly & Old Tom, but for you to demand a level of proof for someone else that you seem to not expect of and provide for yourself, is at best highly inconsistent.

So I now ask you to show the documentational proof for how "those same priniples would find there way into golf architecture."

If it isn't there It doesn't denigrate your thesis or your opinion; to the contrary, it might allow some to appreciate your ability to reason out the proper conclusion from incomplete evidence, something that you might want to also see in others.



 

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #482 on: December 28, 2005, 09:05:03 PM »
Phil
Here is the difference. The Arts and Crafts movement has a well documented set of ideals and principles, many of these same principles can be found in the ideas and principles of the golf architects of the early 20thC (I assume you read my A&C essay...did you read it?).

What are Old Tom's principles? Which principles did Tilly adopt from Old Tom, and what can we identify in Tilly's work that is a result of Old Tom's influence?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 10:05:10 PM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #483 on: December 28, 2005, 10:14:16 PM »
Tom,

You seem to have missed my point entirely.

It is your demand of proof of others when you don't provide it for yourself that I think is preventing the full force of your thesis to be accepted by some.

To answer your question(s) about Tilly and Old Tom, & let's not turn this thread into a discussion of that, I believe there is more than enough evidence to show that Old Tom impressed Tilly with his love and commitment to the game so that his coming back from Scotland in 1898 after his second visit, and the one that he spent a great deal of time with the Old man, and the laying out a rudimentary golf course in order to teach the locals in Philadelphia to play it, was far more than coincidental. Remember, that thread where this was discussed asked who was the most influential person in the growth of the gamw in America. I maintain that Old Tom had a tremendous influence on Tilly.

I used the same deductive reasoning as you do in your assertion that the A&C movement influenced golf architecture, as you DON"T provide the documents or proof to show it. You allude to cause and effect to draw conclusions without providing enough of either, yet when others do the same you discount their conclusions for that reason.

I am seeking neither agreement for my conclusions nor for you to abandon yours. Rather I am hoping that you will accept that others may reason as you do and provide a consistent standard by which some may consider your propositions. This way they may be taken and judged on their merits rather than on how some may feel about your personal prejudices, something that we all have and show.

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #484 on: December 28, 2005, 10:39:58 PM »
It is your demand of proof of others when you don't provide it for yourself that I think is preventing the full force of your thesis to be accepted by some.

Phil
You wrote: "Some might argue for Old Tom Morris [you claimed Old Tom was the most influencial figure in N.American golf].

It was during his second trip to St. Andrews in 1898 that Tillinghast came back enamored with the idea to design golf courses. It was Old Tom's influence that brought this about."

How do you know Tilly came back from Scotland 'enamored' with the idea of designing a golf course?

There is no evidence Old Tom influenced anyone regarding golf design...much less Tilly.

Are you trying to say Old Tom intoduced golf to Tilly? Or are you trying to say Tilly did not love the game before he met Old Tom? What exactly are you trying to say and what do you have to support your theory?

Did you read my A&C essay...if so where do you have problem with its premise or conclusions or supporting evidence?

« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 11:03:08 PM by Tom MacWood »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #485 on: December 29, 2005, 05:47:57 AM »
Tommy Mac

It seems rather obvious what Philip is asking.  From Philip's point of view he has used the same logical technique as yourself.  With a lack of direct evidence, Philip and yourself have claimed indirect influence based on inferential evidence.  

You called Philip, Rich and myself to the mat when you thought there was a lack of evidence to support the influence of Old Tom on American architecture.  You may be correct.  With a lack of substantial evidence it is educated guesswork.  However, when Tom P. requested the same standard of proof that you require of others, you failed (for the moment at least) to produce the direct evidence.  This doesn't mean you are incorrect, it means that your theory is debatable.  

Philip has requested the same leniency in producing direct evidence that you have permitted yourself.  Philip has proposed an idea based on insubstantial evidence.  So have you.  I would very much like intelligent people such as yourself to continue advancing ideas/theories (educated guesswork?) for debate.  If substantial evidence is always the mark of proof the chances of debate leading to a successful outcome are very much limited.  

I would like to read some of your thoughts about post A&C architecture or any other topic that may take your fancy.  So please don't take any of my comments in a harsh manner.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #486 on: December 29, 2005, 06:27:17 AM »
"It was during his second trip to St. Andrews in 1898 that Tillinghast came back enamored with the idea to design golf courses. It was Old Tom's influence that brought this about."

Sean
It does not appear that Phil read my essay. Did you?

You equate the evidence Phil brought to support this comment above to my five part essay? If I did not consider the source, and that you probably did not read the essay, that would be insulting to my intelligence.

As I said before, if you accept that the aesthetic principles of the A&C movement (Ruskin and Morris) were predominant (at the time) with in middle-class Great Britain, in particular middle-class London, in particular the suburbs surrounding London. A commonly accepted fact by most art historians. It is only logical that those same prevailing priniples would find there way into golf architecture, especially in and around London and especially considering golf architecture had drifted so far away from its roots (thanks in part to Old Tom), in both an aesthetic and golfing sense.

Where does the A&C essay fail in your opinion. Do you believe the healthland architects were immune to societal influences? You don't find a similarity in their point of view and ideas?

You equate the undocumented influence of Old Tom on anyone (in particualr to golf architects) to the prevailing well documented influence of the A&C movement on middle-class British society at the time?

Where can I learn more about Old Tom's influence...his thoughts and ideas? Can we find Old Tom's influence within Tilly's work or within Tilly's ideas and philospies?

This appears to be attempt at a gotcha...you called me on the carpet, well then I'll call you on the carpet...the least you could do is to bring something specific, something of substance to the table instead of generalities...like you did not prove anything.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 07:21:16 AM by Tom MacWood »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #487 on: December 29, 2005, 06:55:30 AM »
Tommy Mac

My intention is not to equate "tit for tat" or to insult your intelligence.  I am stating that there is no direct evidence for Phil's (that Old Tom may have been the most influential on American architecture supported by insubstantial evidence presented by Rich and myself) for your argument.  However, this doesn't infer that either argument is incorrect.  I personally believe that both theories have enough merit to at least contain an acorn of truth because they are logically deduced and have at least some evidence in support.  I could be wrong, but it doesn't matter.

Because of the lack of direct evidence both ideas are debatable.  While discovering the facts is important if only because it is interesting and fun, the debate is equally as important because it is interesting, fun and something else may be "discovered".  When debates turn to simply matters of strict interpretation, direct evidence and hard core stances than for many the interest and fun is eliminated and many will therefore fail to participate.

Ciao

Sean



 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #488 on: December 29, 2005, 07:19:22 AM »
Sean
Do you believe the prevailing wisdom that Sunningdale and Huntercombe were the turning point in golf architecture?

What infuence did Sunningdale and Huntercombe have upon Fowler, Colt and Abercromby? Is the evidence direct or indirect?

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #489 on: December 29, 2005, 07:23:32 AM »
Sean
IMO the level of support and documentation for my A&C essay is slighly higher than the level of support Phil gave for his comment regarding Old Tom's influence on Tilly (or his influence upon anyone for that matter)....but if you want to equate the two, so be it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 07:28:10 AM by Tom MacWood »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #490 on: December 29, 2005, 07:30:52 AM »
Tommy Mac

No, I don't believe Sunningdale and Huntercombe were the turning point in golf architecture.  If I had to pick one single course that was the "turning point" in architecture I would choose TOC.  However, this is not to imply that Huntercombe and Sunningdale would not have been built without the existence of TOC.  In truth, TOC of the 1890's was probably just one of many influences which eventually led to the popularizing of the Golden Age.  

I don't know the level of influence Huntercombe and Sunningdale had on Fowler, Abercromby and Colt.

Ciao

Sean
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 07:34:16 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #491 on: December 29, 2005, 07:47:43 AM »
Tom MacWood said:

"TE
It is really quite simple. If you accept that the aesthetic principles of the A&C movement (Ruskin and Morris) were predominant (at the time) with in middle-class Great Britain, in particular middle-class London, in particular the suburbs surrounding London. A commonly accepted fact by most art historians."

Tom:

I am going to write a rebuttal to your "Arts and Crafts" essay that among other things I feel will show the fallacy of your conclusion by establishing the fallacies of some of the premises you use and which you attempt to connect in your essay to both lead to and support your conclusion. But in the meantime you've just listed one of those "premises" or yours above to comment on.

Yes, of course it would be simple if one ACCEPTS that 'the aesthetic principles of the A/C Movement were predominant with the middle-class and upper-middle class (and perhaps the Upper Class as well) around London' (your PREMISE)!!  

The problem with that however is that premise of yours is neither proven nor supportable. I realize you would like it to be but neither wanting it to be nor just stating it on your part as a given makes it so. (Even some of the A/C societies or some of the societies of some of those men who lead the A/C movement do not made that general and universal claim).

Futhermore, you just glide right past the obvious fact that the A/C Movement concerned itself with a revolt (and for political and social reasons as well as artistic reasons) against the dehumanization of labor due to mass-production mechanisms of the Industrial Revolution and concentrated on an expression of a more humanized and unified production process of primarily both decorative art forms (generally interior) and building architecture.

That's a long, long way from encompassing and including a little art form that was just being born in an incredibly rudimentary state that became known as golf course architecture. There was virtually nothing to do with the incipient expressions of golf architectural features of the so-called "Dark Ages" (that was concurrent with the beginnings of the A/C Movement) which could be construed as a dehumanizing mass production process akin to the Industrial Revolution.

All this stretching to fit these "premises" into a logical connection to eventually establish or prove your pre-coneived conclusion is precisely what that critic of your essay termed what (Academia) calls "Positivism"---eg 'searching for independent facts of their own accord, without any relationship or judgment'.

AGAIN, it would be quite 'simple' to accept your conclusion that the A/C Movement was the primary or significant influence on the artistic expression of the Golden Age of golf architecture IF (big "IF") those reading your essay ACCEPTED your "premises" along the way. But why would anyone reading your essay want to just accept your "premises" on faith? Do you expect that some will do that because you present yourself as an expert researcher/writer on the subject of golf course architecture? The problem is that many don't accept those premises of yours because they do not believe your "premises" that lead to and support your conclusion are historically accurate. And if any of your "premises" are not historically accurate then your conclusion is not particularly supportable historically.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 07:58:46 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #492 on: December 29, 2005, 07:50:29 AM »

In truth, TOC of the 1890's was probably just one of many influences which eventually led to the popularizing of the Golden Age.  


When did the Golden Age begin?

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #493 on: December 29, 2005, 07:52:13 AM »
TE
Do you accept the fact that the aesthetic principles of the A&C movement (Ruskin and Morris) were predominant (at the time) with in middle-class Great Britain, in particular middle-class London, in particular the suburbs surrounding London?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #494 on: December 29, 2005, 08:10:23 AM »
Tommy Mac

I spose if I think TOC is the pivotal course in the emergence of the Golden Era then I would say somewhere around 1890 is the initial murmurings of the Golden Era.  Perhaps a bit later if I consider that an architect or two had to recognize and articulate TOC as a masterpiece in design.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #495 on: December 29, 2005, 08:15:03 AM »
Sean
Who were the individuals responsible for the golden age and what differentiated their work in the 1890's from the work in the 1880's and 1870's?

And by the way, I agree with you that TOC and number of other important links were a huge influence upon the golden age.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 08:17:19 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #496 on: December 29, 2005, 08:18:47 AM »
"TE
Do you accept the fact that the aesthetic principles of the A&C movement (Ruskin and Morris) were predominant (at the time) with in middle-class Great Britain, in particular middle-class London, in particular the suburbs surrounding London?"

Tom MacW:

Predominant? Not really and certainly not necessarily. I accept the historical fact that the aesthetic principles of the A/C Movement were quite visible in some circles and in some art forms (but not all art forms) in and around London (at the time). I also accept the fact that the aesthetic principles of the A/C movement were also developed and promoted by other movements at that time that were sympathetic to the aesthetic principles of the A/C Movement (or vice versa), some of which seem to actually precede the specific A/C (by name) movement. Clearly one of them has been shown to be the "Aesthetic" Movement ("Art for Art's sake) that relied heavily on both naturalism and regionalism as well as individual artistic expression and was both promoted and widely publicized by Oscar Wilde (140 speaking engagements in the US over a period of a year is not insignificant). (Clearly the "Aesthetic" movement emanated from the "Pre-Raphealite Brotherhood" as did the A/C movement that was influenced by various painters, writers, and even landscape gardeners that preceded it (and interestingly were mentioned by a number of golf architects of the "Golden Age" ;) ).

I also accept the fact that the reasons for the general rudimentariness and consequent obnoxiousness of most all golf architectural features and expressions of the so-called "Dark Ages" of golf architecture primarily in Britain was the result of some "influences" other than a revolt against the Industrial Revolution or even a "Victorian Aesthetic" (the "A/C and "Aesthetic" movements) and ironically are clearly cited within your own essay by perhaps one of the most cogent and respected golf architecture writers of all time.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 08:27:12 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #497 on: December 29, 2005, 08:29:12 AM »
Predominant? Not really and certainly not necessarily. I accept the historical fact that the aesthetic principles of the A/C Movement were quite visible in some circles and in some art forms (but not all art forms) in and around London (at the time).

Which circles? Which art forms were uneffected?

I also accept the fact that the aesthetic principles of the A/C movement were also developed and promoted by other movements at that time that were sympathetic to the aesthetic principles of the A/C Movement (or vice versa), some of which seem to actually precede the specific A/C (by name) movement. Clearly one of them has been shown to be the "Aesthetic" Movement ("Art for Art's sake) that relied heavily on both naturalism and regionalism as well as individual artistic expression and was both promoted and widely publicized by Oscar Wilde (140 speaking engagements in the US over a period of a year is not insignificant).

Most differentiate between the Aesthetic movment and the A&C movement. By the 1890's the Aesthetic movement was ridiculed in England (if I'm not mistaken Wilde was inprisoned)...not so with the artists and craftsmen associated with the Arts and Crafts movement.

I also accept the fact that the reasons for the general rudimentariness and consequent obnoxiousness of most all golf architectural features and expressions of the so-called "Dark Ages" of golf architecture primarily in Britain was the result and influence of some "influences" other than a revolt against the Industrial Revolution or even a "Victorian Aesthetic" and ironically are clearly cited within your own essay by perhaps one of the most cogent and respected golf architecture writers of all time.

The more important question is what were the influences that brought about a architectural revolution in the heathland at the turn of the century.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 08:31:33 AM by Tom MacWood »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #498 on: December 29, 2005, 09:04:22 AM »
Tommy Mac

My list would include the usual suspects.  

Old Tom: "Old Tom is the most remote point to which we can carry back our genealogical inquiries into the golfing style, so that we may virtually accept him as the common golfing ancester who has stamped the features of his style most distinctly on his descendants."  Horace Hutchinson

Herbert Fowler:  Bernard Darwin considered Fowler one of the most gifted architects of his time.  With an early creation such as Walton Heath who can argue?

Harry Colt: This guy set the standard for good design.  

CB McDonald: Nuff said

AB Tillinghast: The man was a dynamo.  The true all rounder of golf course design.

George C Thomas Jr.:  Another Tilly type guy.  He did it all.  

Donald Ross: Nuff said

Dr Mac: The culmination of all before him.  

There are many, many more influential persons that could be listed.  Off the top of my head a few of the prominent ones would be John Low, Seth Raynor and William Flynn.

I think what distiguishes the Golden Agers from previously is their attention to detail (in both creating strategy and aesthetics).  These archies attempted a marriage of design concepts learned by careful study and created through imagination (meaning their willingness to bring an idea to fruition).  In many ways they succeeded.  

Ciao

Sean
 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

TEPaul

Re:Arts & Crafts sidetrack
« Reply #499 on: December 29, 2005, 09:20:43 AM »
“It is only logical that those same priniples would find there way into golf architecture, especially in and around London and especially considering golf architecture had drifted so far away from its roots, in both an aesthetic and golfing sense.”

Tom MacWood:

What same principles? Below is what you describe. from your essay, as the “principles" of Morris and Rushkin’s “Arts and Crafts" Movement that primarily deals with decorative art objects (generally interior) and building architecture, as well as perhaps some form of landscape gardening;

‘The term Arts and Crafts, in its own era, signified a general association of like-minded artists, designers, manufacturers and crafts people. And although they were highly individualistic and could not be pinned to a definable style, they shared many ideals: honest construction and simplicity of form, fitness for purpose, harmony between the man-made and environment, the revival of traditional craft techniques and the inherent qualities of natural materials. If forced to pinpoint the four universal principals they would be -- design unity, joy of labor, individualism and regionalism -- these combined to create the Arts and Crafts approach.’

Was Willie Park Jr a ‘like minded artist' with the English painters and decorative art objects artisans and building architects and landscape gardeners of England who supported Rushkin and Morris’s A/C principles? I doubt that and you certainly haven’t proven that to be true other than implying he ‘crossed paths’ with some of those who supported those English artists, artisans, building architects and landscape gardeners.

That a Willie Park Jr did what he did at Sunningdale and Huntercombe in the English Heathlands without being influenced by those people hardly implies Park Jr was in some kind of a ‘vacuum’. More likely he simply found himself at the Heathland with the time and the money FOR THE FIRST TIME allowing him to comprehensively mimic better what he grew up with in the Scottish linksland (linksland naturalness) which was a long, long way from the English Industrial Revolution or Victorian aesthetic excess.

Did Park Jr and his crews experience “design unity”, “joy of labor”, “individualism” and “regionalism” in what they did at Sunningdale and Huntercombe? To hear Willie Park jr explain the design and construction of Sunningdale it sounded a lot like a couple of years of backbreaking work to me (to clear the massive underbrush off the site and to construct the features of the course that was far more architectural design work and construction work than had ever been tried  before (the first comprehensive architectural construction in “inland” golf).

Furthermore, what 'revival of traditional craft techniques' were Park Jr and his crews at Sunningdale and Huntercombe plying?? They were certainly not reverting back to some Gothic or Midaeval golf architecture crafts or techniques!! ;) There couldn't have been a REVIVAL of techniques because they were the ones who were designing and building comprehensive and relatively natural golf architecture for the very first time it had ever been done!! This was the BEGINNING of quality and more "natural appearing" MAN-MADE golf course architecture ever done in this world. As such any revival was an impossiblity.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 09:28:00 AM by TEPaul »

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