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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2008, 12:46:14 PM »
Hi Jeff,

I'm afraid my remarks are being misconstrued.

I'm against cheating for financial gain.  I don't care how many people cheat on their taxes; I won't.  I think it's fair to give Clemens the benefit of the doubt.  Baseball players have used illegal performance enhancing substances for a long time.  The first time I heard about it was reading "Ball Four" about 35 years ago.  Tough problem.  I'm sure part of Clemens' aggravation is the fact that he's being singled out.

I guess I don't understand the comment, "If 100% cheated and the rules say they're banned, so what?"

46 year old men who still love to compete, and can if they use steroids, a common practice in the game, don't need to retire in the permissive atmosphere of the baseball business, where profit trumps principles.  But things seem to be changing.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2008, 02:23:12 PM »
To certain kinds of fans, and I'm one of them, the steroid crowd trashed one of the most enduring appeals of baseball - the ability to make statistical comparisons across different eras.  Baseball is the only team sport where the statistics convey most of the story about a player.

The golf analogy is to the technology:  modern equipment trashed traditional architecture in the same way that steroids trashed the baseball record book.  

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2008, 02:26:55 PM »
A question for everyone:

How can anyone think Clemens is telling the truth if he's admitted to all his injections by MacNamee happening in his derriere(he has), and how does that reconcile with his explanation for using lidocaine ( a local anesthetic) for "joint-related relief?" What joint is he trying to treat?

IMHO, his lies have caught up with him.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jay Flemma

Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2008, 02:39:58 PM »
To certain kinds of fans, and I'm one of them, the steroid crowd trashed one of the most enduring appeals of baseball - the ability to make statistical comparisons across different eras.  Baseball is the only team sport where the statistics convey most of the story about a player.

The golf analogy is to the technology:  modern equipment trashed traditional architecture in the same way that steroids trashed the baseball record book.  

That's pretty astute, Phil.  I agree with you, but I'm also happy to point out that even with technological advances, Oakmont and WF played to +5 285.  (Note:  yes I know that Oakmont NORMALLY is par-71 and that by all rights it shhoud read +1 285...but the point is that Oakmont and Winged Foot, IMO through great green contours, leveled the playing field.)

Anyway, back to Clemens, I spoke with some of his defenders and apologists, even some that are journalists, and even they say they just dont have an answer to the question of "How can macnamee being lying about clemens but telling the truth about Pettitte" and all I get back is "You're right, I dont have a good answer to that and neither does he."

Of course I follow that up with "well then why do you believe him and I get "because I want to" (never underestimate the power of denial) or "because he's a sports hero and I don't like seeing them fall from grace.

mikes1160

Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2008, 03:21:28 PM »
Here's yet another Clemens contradiction, from the NY Times today:

Richard D. Emery, a lawyer working for McNamee who specializes in defamation cases, said the Clemens complaint "reads like a press release."

Emery also said Clemens’s suit shows Clemens was not truthful on "60 Minutes" because he had hired an attorney and his investigators had interviewed McNamee before the Mitchell report was released.

During the interview with Mike Wallace, Clemens said he did not know ahead of time what was going to be in the Mitchell report.

"Did Brian McNamee tell you what he was going to say to-", Wallace started.

"Didn’t tell me a word," Clemens interrupted.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2008, 03:43:39 PM »
I think before Clemens is roasted on the stake I think its good to remember that injections are not uncommon in the pro sports world.

Even Brett Favre has taken lots of injections and admitted such. How else do you think he would have that streak and keep coming back?  Are we going to commence a witch hunt with he-said/she-saids on him as well?

Clemens biggest mistake was even responding to this whole scenario.  Its a no-win situation and he should have learned from McGuire and others that the best way is the no-comment route.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 03:44:11 PM by Kalen Braley »

Michael Christensen

Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2008, 03:48:00 PM »
If I was Clemens...I would be very, very careful.  Somewhere along the line he is going to have to give testimony under oath....ask Bonds and Clinton how tricky that can be!

Go off into the sunset Roger...take your $200 million with you and have a ball

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2008, 03:48:07 PM »
Anthony,

Have you met Rick Flair?  Wooooooo!!!

JB -

Ric Flair actually lives next door to a buddy of mine. Nice guy, nice neighborhood. He still has the NWA World belts in the house.

Back on topic, I believed Roger last night. Call me gullible, but I thought he was telling the truth.
Mr Hurricane

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2008, 03:55:05 PM »
Hi Jeff,

I'm afraid my remarks are being misconstrued.

I'm against cheating for financial gain.  I don't care how many people cheat on their taxes; I won't.  I think it's fair to give Clemens the benefit of the doubt.  Baseball players have used illegal performance enhancing substances for a long time.  The first time I heard about it was reading "Ball Four" about 35 years ago.  Tough problem.  I'm sure part of Clemens' aggravation is the fact that he's being singled out.

I guess I don't understand the comment, "If 100% cheated and the rules say they're banned, so what?"

46 year old men who still love to compete, and can if they use steroids, a common practice in the game, don't need to retire in the permissive atmosphere of the baseball business, where profit trumps principles.  But things seem to be changing.


I meant that if everybody cheated (100%) and they're all banned and excluded from the record books, who will care?
There were rules in place and those that broke them should have those rules enforced, no matter how many there are.
Fans wouldn't know the difference if a new set of atheletes took their place-and the next group would toe the line.

I'm 44 and if someone showed me 25-50% of the guys i play with move their ball in the rough, and I needed to to compete,
I wouldn't.

I certainly can't see how you can say you hate to see people cheat for money, yet defend Clemens because other baseball players cheat.(who I maintain has a right to be innocent until proven guilty)
wasn't he getting paid?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2008, 03:55:42 PM »

The golf analogy is to the technology:  modern equipment trashed traditional architecture in the same way that steroids trashed the baseball record book.  


I agree with you, but I'm also happy to point out that even with technological advances, Oakmont and WF played to +5 285.  (Note:  yes I know that Oakmont NORMALLY is par-71 and that by all rights it shhoud read +1 285...but the point is that Oakmont and Winged Foot, IMO through great green contours, leveled the playing field.)


Jay,

The only way traditional US Open courses have withstood technology is by ridiculous setups, particularly narrow fairways and penal rough.

The other thing that technology has done, and there is a baseball analogy here too, is make it impossible to compare the way guys play across different eras.  We had a long discussion here about Hogan's 1-iron on the 72nd hole at Merion.  Nobody's going to be hitting a long-iron into that green in 2013.

Glad hear there's another Phish fan on this board!

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2008, 05:25:48 PM »
I see the problem now.  I'm not defending Clemens.  I'm saying it's reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt because nothing has been proved.  But my intention is the opposite of an attempt to defend him.  I just hate that aggressive, defensive posturing stuff, a variant on the "Don't you know who I am?  I deserve respect!"

Jay Flemma

Re:Probably not OT - Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2008, 05:33:44 PM »

The golf analogy is to the technology:  modern equipment trashed traditional architecture in the same way that steroids trashed the baseball record book.  


I agree with you, but I'm also happy to point out that even with technological advances, Oakmont and WF played to +5 285.  (Note:  yes I know that Oakmont NORMALLY is par-71 and that by all rights it shhoud read +1 285...but the point is that Oakmont and Winged Foot, IMO through great green contours, leveled the playing field.)


Jay,

The only way traditional US Open courses have withstood technology is by ridiculous setups, particularly narrow fairways and penal rough.

The other thing that technology has done, and there is a baseball analogy here too, is make it impossible to compare the way guys play across different eras.  We had a long discussion here about Hogan's 1-iron on the 72nd hole at Merion.  Nobody's going to be hitting a long-iron into that green in 2013.

Glad hear there's another Phish fan on this board!

Maybe golf should take a page from baseball's book...go back to wooden drivers and fairway clubs...just like baseball, when you turn pro, turn in the metals!

Hey Phil!   Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiilsooooooooooooon!

Boo-doo, boo-doo...

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