As everyone knows, I hate "formulas" for design.  One of the things I dislike about the suggestion for angling tees is that it lessens the variety of the course if the doglegs are all sharper for the back-tee player, and all gentler for the middle-tee player.

It seems like good players always want to dumb down the course from the middle tees.  Why shouldn't the members enjoy a variety of holes?  And why does every hole have to be hard?

Tom:

This is the genius of Pac, like I've said it before. I've played every tee box here, including the all-the-way-forward tees on some holes, and the fact that you THOUGHT about every level of golfer to present some fun/great golf experience was HUGE to me. That is what has impressed me most about Pac.

On some holes the "whites" are better holes than from the "tips"!

Jed,

I think its possible, although getting harder.  I think the ANGC/strategic model still rules, at least presuming the new rough doesn't stay in place all year and the greens roll something less than 13 for regular play.  

The lessons learned there seem to be:

Multiple Tees - (Reduced Dogleg and Fw Angles, Forced Carries and Hole Distance)

Wide Fw at 200-220 Yards, Fw narrower as tee shot distances increase

Light or No Rough (except for tournaments of consequence)

Minimum of Forced Carries, Use more lateral hazards

Minimum of Sand Hazards, Use more grass hazards

Minimum of Water Hazards

Consideration of Hazard Placement -

   General - Left to right side ratio of about 2:1
   FW - Mostly at distances played by better players (lack of  distance is penalty enough for missed shot)
   Green - Mostly Mid Green rather than green front (esp. on right side)

Generally Larger, Rolling Greens with a few "Sunday Pins" and lots of flatter spots in between

We could add "containment fairways" and "save bunkers" but I don't think those are strictly necessary.  I wish there were some new dramatic thoughts on the subject, but I haven't really seen any, here or anywhere!

Jeff:

Very well thought out post.

I like your propositions here.

I think the big problem is getting people to play the right tees. The 20 handicapper who needs to, "see the whole course" is a curse to all.

If I remember it right, Crosswater at Sunriver makes a big jump from the white tees as you go back. I played the blues at 6800 something and the carries where challenging but not impossible for a 6 or 7. Walking by the back tees I thought I'd get my butt kicked from those. The white tees were another story, they seemed super close (6,000 at altitude?).

I remember thinking that the resort high handicapper could navigate this BIG course from the whites and do ok. The very back tees looked like they could challenge the best.

I absolutely believe its possible to entertain 20 cappers and + players.  It is probably necessary to err (such as with some of the ideas Jeff mentioned) on the side of the 20 capper, but I think many + players will and do buy this logic so long as they are having fun.  I think some on this thread are over-estimating how good + players are.  I have seen plenty of + players beaten by 5-7 cappers on their day.  There are plenty of courses about such as Dornoch that satisfy both ends of the spectrum admirably.  I also think Adrian is right in that a course like Painswick can be a great equaliser.  A decent player can go low around there.  

Ciao

 

 I think some on this thread are over-estimating how good + players are.  I have seen plenty of + players beaten by 5-7 cappers on their day.  

Even the Patriots lose once in a while too, sean. (That's american football, for you!)

But on a daily basis, as a consistent quality course, I think people on here vastly underestimate competitive amateurs or playing pros and how good they are.

An example is at the last GCA outing at my club, the question was asked to Kyle Phillips about our short par 4 (361) 4th and how it was not realistically drivable even for playing pros. It plays something like 303 from the white tees.

I just watched someone put it in on the green, pin high last weekend from the "unreachable" tees. And he's not even the longest in our club.

Our 610 yard par 5 5th that runs slightly uphill and requires a 300+ carry to avoid ESA that cuts into the fairway was hit the same day by ANOTHER player in our group with driver/5 iron.

  Not only is it possible, it should be the goal of any GCA charging for his services.
As for Pacific Dunes laying down, it just don't happen.  All of the good rounds I've seen out there have been a result of one golfing his ball and thinking his way around the course, regardless of conditions.
And besides, Golf courses aren't designed without the weather being taken into consideration.  Tom built Pac knowing it would be played in 20-30 mph wind the overwhelming majority.  If there is 10 days a year when that doesn't happen, so be it.  Good for the folks playing those days.
The reason IMO, Pacific holds the attention of low and high handicappers is the tee shots.  There isn't a hole on the course where there isn't a ideal spot to be in those wide fairways.  The width allows the higher handicapper to spray the ball a bit of the tee, but if you want to score you need to be focused on a specific spot.
Bandon Dunes does not hold up to that same test (in fairness though some of that is due to maintaince decisions).  And in order to challenge the low guys you'd have to set the course up at a length that would be unplayable for the high handicappers.
There are a lot of issues in this discussion besides design.  Technology has widened the gap between high and low handicappers.  And intent, why we play golf, has a lot to do with it.

Jed

To my way of thinking, unless a guy can shoot consistently in the 60s on a course with a card in his hand, then he is being sufficiently challenged.  That sort of scoring just doesn't happen all that often from players on the lower rungs of good amateurs.  For instance, a few years ago Golf World used to host a champion of champions a Woodhall Spa.  Club champions were (this tourmament may still be going on) invited to play over a few days.  These guys were mainly in the +2 to 2 range - good players.  They didn't tear up Woodhall - which is about 7000 yards from all the way back, but I doubt these guys played the full length.  The winner would usually be a few under par.  Besides, the short tees at 6500ish yards had two shots off the par so they aren't really any easier than the backs in terms of shooting under par.  I would say courses like this give quite good amateurs all they can deal with AND Woodhall is only one of many courses that can host second tier events.

Ciao

Ciao

 Not only is it possible, it should be the goal of any GCA charging for his services.
As for Pacific Dunes laying down, it just don't happen.  All of the good rounds I've seen out there have been a result of one golfing his ball and thinking his way around the course, regardless of conditions.
And besides, Golf courses aren't designed without the weather being taken into consideration.  Tom built Pac knowing it would be played in 20-30 mph wind the overwhelming majority.  If there is 10 days a year when that doesn't happen, so be it.  Good for the folks playing those days.
The reason IMO, Pacific holds the attention of low and high handicappers is the tee shots.  There isn't a hole on the course where there isn't a ideal spot to be in those wide fairways.  The width allows the higher handicapper to spray the ball a bit of the tee, but if you want to score you need to be focused on a specific spot.
Bandon Dunes does not hold up to that same test (in fairness though some of that is due to maintaince decisions).  And in order to challenge the low guys you'd have to set the course up at a length that would be unplayable for the high handicappers.
There are a lot of issues in this discussion besides design.  Technology has widened the gap between high and low handicappers.  And intent, why we play golf, has a lot to do with it.

Joe:

I'm anxious to play with you in our group! I'd like to see if you can impart any knowledge into how Chanon gets around the course, and to see if you can help him do it better.

Are you saying Pac doesn't lay down for Jamie? I'd bet he can consistently go mid 60s there.....and he's the best player at the course (naturally speaking, of course!) isn't he?

The other issue already mentioned a bit is getting the green contours to really challenge the birdie putt. Most players can 3-4 putt no matter what their handicap. Getting the greens to require a precise approach to have a chance for birdie is critical. Thankfully there seems to be a move away from the non-golden age tabletops with a tier or a slight tilt.

I think that putting green contours are perhaps the best way to defend birdie or "going low".

If you want to score well, you have to putt well.

Jed, I don't know the holes you used as your examples so I can't comment on whether hitting it straight is important on them.  My point really was that isolated examples of driving greens or reaching holes in two is not in and of itself indicative of how good a player is.  Score is really the only thing that matters and there are a lot of ways to get the ball in the hole.

I hear ya.

I'm just putting forth those examples as 16 members of GCA had the opportunity to play them and (almost) universally brought up the same thoughts--that no one would be able to do those things and that the hole (short par 4 fourth) should be modified accordingly.

And I hear you that score is really the only thing that matters...but when you're hitting 4 wood when others are hitting 5 iron, it's certainly easier to get the 5 iron close!

On many longer courses these days, I try like heck to hide the back tee on the first few holes as my contribution to getting players to go up a tee.

The Anama Colonies Golf Course that's about a half hour from me here in snowy Iowa has a few holes where the only way to get to the back tee is to get your ass out of the cart and walk up a fairly steep hill.  Even though the back tees are comparatively short these days at under 6900 yards, I can certainly notice a difference in the wear and tear on those teeboxes.

So just make all your back teeboxes inaccessible by cart and you'll probably cut out 90% of the people who don't belong there (and perhaps half of those who do )

TOC should be fine for slicers, so long as they are honest with themselves about their slicing.  There's plenty of room to aim left.  Yeah, the angles of approach aren't as good, but 20+ handicappers don't care about that stuff anyway.  Or at least shouldn't worry themselves too much if they end up with an angle of approach that makes birdie near impossible and par difficult.